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Ben 10 Classic Series Revision Thread Part 1

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Electro7101 said:
It is unfair to force realistic optics on things that escape Human intuition.
And before anyone says something about "they could've just looked it up" please
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I mean, the optics in Ben 10 have been at least in the same OOM as RL optics (with the distance being 4x smaller than the Earth/moon distance) going by angsizing and assuming a human POV. However, much of the time framing and point-of-view can explain abnormally large Earth (to a degree) in certain shots since a camera isn't the same as the human eye and can be cropped/messed around with. Zoomed-in / cropped shots of the Earth viewed from the Moon can look like this.

Meanwhile we have consistent space-shots showing both Galvan Prime and Galvan B from as early as AF/UA and as late as Omniverse, with Galvan B being tiny compared to Prime and extremely close to it. And we also have consistent shots from both Galvan Prime and Galvan B that showcase them being crazy close. The same isn't true by nearly the same degree for the Earth and Moon, so clearly this isn't purely an issue of unrealistic optics.

I'm holding the animators/authors to the optics that they themselves have demonstrated to be capable of. And I'm sorry, but even when we compare it to in-show shots of the Earth-to-moon it's still ridiculously closer.

EpicCookie12342 said:
but most likely it was, nice catch on that, but your premise on Galvan B being smaller than the Moon still doesn’t stand
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I guess I'll concede that.

However my points on the optics are still there.
 
EpicCookie12342 said:
The only thing I got is the Moon and Earth in this image.
Click to expand...

It isn't as off as it seems due to the Earth being in the foreground with the Moon in the background. For reference, this is what the Earth/Moon system looks like from Mars. Really just depends on the angle you take the shot and where the moon/earth are in orbit at the time. Moon should still probably be smaller/more distant here, though, not saying that it's perfect by any metric, but it's not "the animators don't know optics" bad.

This photo of Galvan B has it in the foreground, as does this one with Galvan B in front of Galvan Prime and still looking crazy smaller. If we viewed the Earth from behind the moon even by Ben 10's wonky optics the Earth would be eclipsed.
 
If High Override being capable of destroying the earth is legit and we used the highest interpretation then he’d be baseline 5-B. XLRArmBlastDiamondHeat (yes that’s a thing) probably scales but he might be the only one that scales.
 
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Dargoo_Faust said:
I have no clue what you mean by this. A quasar is just a name for an extremely large and massive black hole. What it's called does not change whether or not it is realistic, so it really does matter whether the black holes he creates in the show are realistic or not. Interested to see your debunks though.
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I’m basically saying that it was clearly intended to be a real black hole or else saying he could create a quasar would be false and they would have answered: no, because Gravattack’s black hole he created isn’t a real black hole.

Anyways for my previous debunk on your message wall:

The feat happened due to the reaction of the Time Beast’ time powers and Gravattack’s gravity powers. Gravattack was also continuously increasing his gravity to get to such point, so a possibly Black Hole Creation might be better. This will also not scale to anything but Gravattack’s hax and Ben 10 kind of has a record of having aliens higher tiered with their abilities than with their physical AP: Feedback, Chromastone and Upchuck come to mind. Lastly I’d be surprised if it didn’t fit our standards since it was specifically made to stop an FTL being (thus using the property that even light can’t escape a black hole) and made by increasing it’s gravity (Rook also mentions it being a property of Einstein’s theory of special relativity), I doubt that any black hole feat would be valid (ok they took some liberties with the way it was created visually such as a red explosion, which is an indication of the time beast’ powers, and the cinematic timing, but Ben was literally able to comment after the Big Bang went off before his face so I doubt cinematic timing is gonna change anything) if a Ben 10 black hole that is actually explained isn’t valid due to the scientific nature of the show.

Edit: Also I think the electricity thing vanishes when the black hole expands so it seems to me this was an indication of the Black Hole being time stopped due to time beast interference, which allows Ben and Rook enough time to hop into the FTL Time Cycles and get away without dying by being near it. Oh and didn’t the Smash Bros black hole by Galeem also get accepted despite the electricity?
 
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Dargoo_Faust said:
I mean, the question was just asking if it was possible period for Atomix to do that, not Ben using Atomix with the typical restrictions of the Omnitrix.
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Duncan is generally specific enough to mention that Atomix would time out before performing the feat if he couldn’t do it in 10 minutes. But somewhat fair I guess.

I might also have a better idea than the 10-minute timeframe. Atomix was exhausted at the end of his fight with Malgax thus we could assume he depleted all of his energy during that fight and thus divide his total energy (= 4-C, or potentially higher since creating a sun could require more concentration and thus effort from him than just shooting an energy blast, similar to Green Lanterns where their ring got overloaded by creating a solar system which btw is proof for 4-B, see Post-Flashpoint’s Barry’s page, despite being an overtime feat) over the amount of attacks he used in that fight to get his regular AP (we’d need a thorough analysis on this tho since I think the fight was off-screen for a bit).
 
Zamasu_Chan said:
What? Humungousaur would scale to high 7-A if it gets accepted.
Click to expand...
I am aware, you just basically made it sound like DH was so much superior to everyone even Vilgax to the point he'd wreck Humungousaur. Anyways to add to my previous point: Colossus Kevin was winning the fight against Negative DH once he realized it was Albedo and then Albedo used a finishing move (which has higher AP than his regular attacks) to defeat Kevin. So unless you want to argue that Colossus Kevin > Vilgax you relying on DH being untouchable by mid-tiers isn't gonna work. There's also Armored Kevin, Chromastone and Swampfire hurting AF Vilgax. The fact that the scaling would go completely whack if I upgraded Rath to a top-tier unless we use the 2 times multiplier and scale Manny Armstrong in between Kevin and Rath (the latter being at least 2 times superior to the former but not enough to stomp). Rook fighting top tiers: http://featdirectory.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Rook_Blonko_(Ben_10). Khyber being able to use a pressure point against Rath to take him down despite Khyber probably being a mid-tier (implying he stood a chance or else he'd get immediately stomped). And a bunch of other reasons for why mid-tiers should downscale from top tiers. You also still haven't supplied Humungousaur supposedly stomping any mid-tiers.
 
OS Heatblast fought Kevin no problem. Can OS Heatblast suddenly fight on par with AF Diamondhead and Vilgax?

Kevin had a difficult time against Kraab. The same Kraab who’s as strong as OS Diamondhead. AF Vilgax is far above OS Diamondhead because Ultomos >= OS Diamondhead and Vilgax stomped Ultimos.

Eon was fighting on par with OS XLR8 and OV Diamondhead at the same time yet OV XLR8 was almost a match for young Vilgax.

Sunder was weaker than Humungousaur in AF but was suddenly overwhelming U. Cannonbolt. The same U. Cannonbolt who absolutely wrecked Aggregor, the same Aggregor who couldn’t feel a thing from blood lusted Humungousaur’s punches.

Humungousaur struggled against Trombipulor in Blukic and Driba Go to Mr. Smoothy's but in Special Delivery Humungousaur had no problem dealing with him as well as other Villains.

Do you see how dumb and circular the scaling can get? That’s my problem. There’s too much circular scaling and we can’t just pick and choose. We gotta stick with consistency.
 
Zamasu_Chan said:
Sunder was weaker than Humungousaur in AF but was suddenly overwhelming U. Cannonbolt. The same U. Cannonbolt who absolutely wrecked Aggregor, the same Aggregor who couldn’t feel a thing from blood lusted Humungousaur’s punches.
Click to expand...
You mean the same Ultimate Cannonbolt who got 2 strikes in then Aggregor proceed to defeat him.
A minor momentary set back facing an opponent he has never seen is a non factor. Aggregor won that fight and it was a relatively decent attempt from Ultimate Cannonbolt similarly to Chromastone blasting Vilgax without absorbing any energy and harming him and sent him flying, Eatle did the same thing with Lucubra Vilgax yet he scales (All of these aliens lost with Relatively decent efforts)
 
I have it on the OP, but I have to rewatch both scenes before we confirm anything.

Back on topic, where are we regarding Tier 4 Atomix?
 
Antvasima said:
What are the conclusions here so far?
Click to expand...
The thread doesn't seem to have much of a cohesive identity, to be entirely honest. I'm still trying to wrap my head around what the OP is proposing and otherwise this has hosted a few minor debates on the legitimacy of a black hole feat, specifics on a calc, et cetera.
 
Currently, this seems to be a pool of CRTs gathered into one, due to the current restrictions on CRTs causing people to add more and more subjects to the list.
 
Maybe we should finish discussing the Diamondhead punched to Galvan B calc, and decide on which end is more accurate. If there are still arguments against the distance, watch Electro’s video. Then we should discuss Atomix, then just go down the list, and save the scaling for last. So we can get this CRT done more efficiently.
 
Okay. I suppose that I will unsubscribe to this thread again then.

You can tell me if you need some form of approval after you reach a conclusion.
 
22 people have replied.
At least 1/21 are in favor of the earth-moon <= distance orbit FRA.

Only Dargoo and Zamasu have presented objections.
In reality we should wait for them to reply right?

React to (Like) this and I'll update count?
 
Electro7101 said:
22 people have replied.
At least 1/21 are in favor of the earth-moon <= distance orbit FRA.

Only Dargoo and Zamasu have presented objections.
In reality we should wait for them to reply right?

React to (Like) this and I'll update count?
Click to expand...
What? Is it not obvious that the moon has a greater distance? If you go behind the moon, you won’t see the earth. If you go behind Galvan B you’ll still see Galvan Prime.
 
We are arguing unrealistic representation of scale-distance for both the moon and galvan B

Zamasu_Chan said:
What? Is it not obvious that the moon has a greater distance? If you go behind the moon, you won’t see the earth. If you go behind Galvan B you’ll still see Galvan Prime.
Click to expand...
As distance from the moon increases you would see the Earth again.
 
But that one shot of the moon with earth just means the moon is in the background. Either that or the moon in the Ben 10 verse is not that far.
 
image0.png

No moon is 238,900 miles away from earth but this close.
 
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