BB Avatar Addition (Another BB Revision)

[TheUnshakableOne]

May i ask wouldn't it be combat applicable?

I guess know would be a good time to separate out the 2 keys of "True Form BB" and "Avatar BB" with what abilities does "Avatar BB only Have"

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Wow, 2-A was THAT controversial that even in the face of lots of evidence, people wanted to take it down? Darn, that's a shame. Oh well.

So literally only BB would 2-A physically? (New God tier of the Nasuverse, wow) No one would else would 2-A physically then right? Others will be 2-A via hax (Blazblue feels)..

Honestly this all seems very arbitrary... Like why so much scrutiny for this verse, unlike others where hax = AP is easily accepted? Oh well, 2-A hax is still good enough I guess.

Would this affect CCC Gilgamesh btw?

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

They probably aren't going to stop until 2-A is completely removed.

Yes, only BB gets 2-A tier, the rest get hax and resistances on that level. That's the proposal. Gilgamesh would also only get that, which is a sad thing to witness. Behemoth of Extra CCC gets reduced to low 2-C. "Look at how they massacred my boy".

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Eh least he can kinda fight 2-As due to his hax and resistances. But wow, I can somehow smell a vendetta slowly rising to take out every single trace of 2-A Fate lel.

But enough joking around. The Sakura get to keep their 2-A hax, so I guess Melt is again the strongest of all High 3-As. Kazuradrop might also be the strongest 7-A barring Masadaverse's 1-A shenanigans. (Then again, Kumuko exists in 7-A...)

So I assume even Kiara, Sefar, and Amaterasu won't get 2-A physicality? But I still think Buddha via his NP is 2-A due to the whole Last Encore stuff that was extensively discussed prior.

 

[Makkurona]

I can see True Sefar being physically 2-A with her feats, for Amaterasu though... I think she can go 2-A because 9 tails Tamamo kicking Moon Cell to submission which would be around the same tier if not higher. Kiara is debatable whether she can go to 2-A or 2-C (she being the center of the universe and such)

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't True Sefar defeat the Greek Pantheon singlehandedly? Cuz wow... That's like, as powerful as how Typhon in the Greek myths was protrayed..

But yeah, True Sefar is all kinds of OP. Heck, I won't be surprised if it has something to do with the next Lostbelt.

 

[Makkurona]

Not just Greek, almost ALL pantheon got whooped by Sefar solo (and this is just Avatar Sefar projected from MC).

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Wow, so I guess that's definitely a possibility for 2-A in physicality then. Sefar was stated to be a threat to the Mooncell after all.

Also, Sefar can defeat entire pantheons huh? Sefar VS Berserker Arjuna when lel

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I just want to point out that.... Sefar had to hack the Mooncell first and use it's resources to create a physical body in Earth when it fought "all pantheons"

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Tmw The Moon Cell could create a body to smack around entire pantheons but it couldn't get rid of some Armor because Praise the Sun

 

[Makkurona]

Ah, btw, almost slipped my mind. The jet engines and nuclear reactor parts are just metaphor to explain the scale of her Self Mod. She was portrayed as a simple scooter that then added with all of these kind of stuffs to the point the scooter becomes a mess of a gigastructure level. So, a bit wrong there, it just mean that she installed so much things on herself she went to become a god, simply put, on the cost of sanity and errors. So, yeah, her true form would be more like the sketch i posted above or like in BB summer NP.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I'm on the road atm, but I'll bring scans in a bit

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Ah, btw, almost slipped my mind. The jet engines and nuclear reactor parts are just metaphor to explain the scale of her Self Mod. She was portrayed as a simple scooter that then added with all of these kind of stuffs to the point the scooter becomes a mess of a gigastructure level. So, a bit wrong there, it just mean that she installed so much things on herself she went to become a god, simply put, on the cost of sanity and errors. So, yeah, her true form would be more like the sketch i posted above or like in BB summer NP.

Yeah, the part about jet engines was mostly a joke

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

@upgrade man

Do you agree or disagree currently?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Here it is. I got it.Velbar used the Mooncells resources to send its own Data to earth. Which turns out to be the White Titan. About, the Karna thing. The Mooncell may not have been able to erase Jinako because they found a loophole for its rules. However, BB (True Form) did earse Jinako whom had Karnas armor on.

I agree with it, but however. How will we phrase the justification, and what feats will we use?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I guess know would be a good time to separate out the 2 keys of "True Form BB" and "Avatar BB" with what abilities does "Avatar BB only Have"

Honestly, we really only see Avatar BB. We would just know that it is her higher form, not her mind, that is watching all of history like a book. I'm pretty sure all the feats we see are just the Cyber frame or her using the powers of the moon cell

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Here it is. I got it.Velbar used the Mooncells resources to send its own Data to earth. Which turns out to be the White Titan. About, the Karna thing. The Mooncell may not have been able to erase Jinako because they found a loophole for its rules. However, BB (True Form) did earse Jinako whom had Karnas armor on.
I agree with it, but however. How will we phrase the justification, and what feats will we use?

I read the link you posted for BB erasing Jinako, and I don't see it in that page. Did you link the wrong one?

Well, most of them will be scaling from Kama, so I guess the top priority is her feat where she burns the universe, and crafting a justification based on that. How does "At least High 3-A, Likely Low 2-C (Wields flames that are capable of burning away the universe. Given that the Moon Cell's virtual reflection of the universe is infinite, the original should be as well)" sound?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Oh sorry, i guess i should have included it in there. its all the way at the bottom of that page in blue text. Not the comment section lol

if its just the universe it should be 3-A likely low 2-C.. Unless we can find a way to show its infinite in size.. The Mooncell shouldn't be included within that justification.. it will probably cuase issues..

Also.. how would this scale to Avatar BB...?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Oh, you meant the line about the moon cell thinking Jinako got erased? To me that more means that it believed it erased her, but as Karna said, when it tried, it just displaced her to earth.

The Moon Cell's reflection of the world it observed was infinite, so the original should be infinite as well. We can just say it was shown to be infinite if you don't wanna say where but whatever. Could we get the scans of the moon cell being infinite btw? I know that was stated somewhere before.

Kama scales to Kiara who scales to BB. Kama also scales to Tiamat, who scales to BB.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

• "—And so that area was fully swallowed into the imaginary numbers. I jump to the next area. I'm going to go paint over whatever conscious universe remains. All records and impressions from this space will be deleted. They are unnecessary for my present self. They are a dream I had once in the past. I won't put them in a library. I won't give them to the Moon Cell. I'll describe the final result. With the end of the Holy Grail War, Jinako Karigiri was completely erased. The Moon Cell will never be able to disprove this." ==== It could be possible that im misunderstanding this line too.

That was imaginary number space which has a space of infinite distance.. but its a higher dimensinal space so its an infinite 4-D space..

but if there is also other people that want to use this scan... which then.. here it is... https://www.tmdict.com/en/yo.404-light-years

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

"—And so that area was fully swallowed into the imaginary numbers. I jump to the next area. I'm going to go paint over whatever conscious universe remains. All records and impressions from this space will be deleted. They are unnecessary for my present self. They are a dream I had once in the past. I won't put them in a library. I won't give them to the Moon Cell. I'll describe the final result. With the end of the Holy Grail War, Jinako Karigiri was completely erased. The Moon Cell will never be able to disprove this." ==== I think the fact that The Moon Cell doesn't know what happened to her, just that it was told she was erased, is what it was focussing on. It seems strange that they would say she would be completely fine, the moon cell would try to erase her, and when that happens she will be moved off world, and then erase her and have her not move off world.

I see.

Yeah, let's use that then. If the reflection of the world it produces is infinite, then the real one should be as well. I think that BB could make herself an "infinite concept" should also be used to back up her avatar's justification of power. Remember, all the times that BB is interacting with the world she is using an Avatar

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'd like to hear Hun's opinion on this BB Avatar thing.

 

[Paul_Frank]

there's not really an opinion to be had though it's clear cut

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

May i ask wouldn't it be combat applicable?

O. Key. Do. Key. I'm having a hard time answering all I have opinions for now.

BB getting possessed by the Mooncell is from their fusion, that's why I don't think it would hax people just fighting it.

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

Have you reached a conclusion?

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

Have you reached a conclusion?

I think most here are fine with BB's Avatar key and her Type 9. And I think the AP rating should be fine as well. But since Matt said we should wait for Hun, I think we should wait as well, in case he got something against it.

 

[Makkurona]

Just a note, no vendetta here to make Nasuverse downgraded (me myself is one of the reasons this thread happens). It's just to make things clearer once and for all about AP, tiers, haxes etc. Though there maybe still more arguments in the future

 

[Makkurona]

Bump. In case it's left forgotten

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

Since the 2-As now all scale from Kama and are High 3-A/Low 2-C instead (Except for Arjunalter, who has his Low 2-C feat) May I ask what suggest them being Low 2-C? I mean, Kama has the "burning the universe" statement and the fact she's a universe, if she's the entire universe with time, that'd be solid Low 2-C right?

 

[Makkurona]

I don't know about the last question but, Kama imo is at least Low 2-C , but can be even higher as she would not only destroy one timeline she is in, but all timelines in the Nasuverse if left alone (stated she would cause the collapse of the Pan Human History, it not even Lostbelts too, that would be many timelines).

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

Also, BB Avatar has the BB Special Dog Space feat as well, it's an infinite space, but since you can move in it, it might qualify for Low 2-C too.

 

[Hun_Tiandi]

I agree with what Makkurona said about this being the same as Tamamo's case: the original mecha BB partitioned the aspects she perceived to be ugly into the Alter Egos. She divided herself to effectively utilize her functions, but couldn't control them. That comment about giving herself a retry in the digital world is talking about the privilege of a high grade AI, like how Sakura repeated the single day where she got to know Hakuno 69 times. According to BB, you have to make the frame drop around the area to defeat her, which Lip seems to succeed in doing with Brynhildr Romantia. There's no need to break the fourth wall, you just need a lot of power. Unlocking that is the purpose of this interlude.

Higher dimensional beings exist in the Nasuverse. The Throne of Gods where the old Prime ones transmigrated after the Age of Gods is a higher dimension. Extra's True Demon material makes Fiends and True Demons to be indistinguishable from that of higher-order lifeform (Ú½ÿµ¼íÕàâþöƒÕæ¢õ¢ô, kou-jigen seimeitai?, lit. "higher-dimension lifeform"). They are compared to being similar to cosmic horrors. Boddhisatva is an equivalent or superior existence. It would be odd to put BB above them, what more with statements from Hakuno and his servants putting her below Kiara. So my stance remains the same.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Makk only said that the other Sakura 5 were like the Tamamo 9, not BB herself. So what is a retry then? Is that something else than the clearly respawned form she made? I was saying that I interpreted it as a 4th wall break, not that I was saying a 4th wall break was required persay.

I'm not sure how what you said about higher gods leads into her not being above them. She is pretty clearly higher dimensional herself. Can you prove that the statements about Kiara being above BB were about the true BB and not about her avatar?

 

[Hun_Tiandi]

My point is that the original megastructure BB isn't there anymore. After she divided herself, the five Alter Egos are born, and the BB we know is whatever's left. It's similar to Tamamo cutting off all 9 tails, and the remnant is Hakuno's fox wife.

Seems like it's just that... a retry. A rematch. Lip was trying to kick her out of Breast Valley and BB starts gloating about her privilege as a super advanced AI in the digital world.

I was comparing Moon Cell BB to Kiara. "True BB" is already gone and I don't place her above Moon Cell BB anyways.

 

[Makkurona]

Wait, gigastructure BB is still there, as emphasized by Rin when BB introduces herself to us in CCC. Her Self Mod descriptions also say that. I won't put Moon Cell BB and True, or in this case Pre Moon Cell BB above another, because Moon Cell and Pre Moon Cell BB are already on the same level.

I did say that Sakura 5 are like Tamamo 9 in regard to their existence, which you can't say Cat and Vitch are avatars of OG Tamamo because they are truly separated existences, which is also the case for Lip and Melt with BB. But the difference for Sakuras are that they were just cut off emotions from BB with no worth before BB installs goddesses in them, unlike Tamamos who have similiar abilities as OG Tamamo because Tamamo's powers cut off following the nines. After BB made the Sakura Five, she is still a gigastructure or else she won't even be able to go against MC.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

My point is that the original megastructure BB isn't there anymore. After she divided herself, the five Alter Egos are born, and the BB we know is whatever's left. It's similar to Tamamo cutting off all 9 tails, and the remnant is Hakuno's fox wife.
Seems like it's just that... a retry. A rematch. Lip was trying to kick her out of Breast Valley and BB starts gloating about her privilege as a super advanced AI in the digital world.

I was comparing Moon Cell BB to Kiara. "True BB" is already gone and I don't place her above Moon Cell BB anyways.

This is patently false due to the fact we already know she has some higher self that views things from a higher perspective. We used to say it was her mind, but the mass of cancerous data within imaginary space makes far more sense. She uses the same cyberframe from before as well, so whatever she became via mutation is not what is walking around now.

We see her physically disappear and them generate a new form, so it isnt just a rematch if that is what you are saying.

I agree that True BB wouldn't be above Moon Cell BB since it was true BB that merged with it, but not the other stuff for the reasons I already stated.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

BB became the Mooncell, the Mooncell became her, she is the Mooncell, and is existent throughout the Mooncell's past, and future. Those scans are linked on her profile somewhere


Where's it stated at that she is "no longer" there?

 

[Makkurona]

Bump

 

[Hun_Tiandi]

Late reply but I've been busy.

@Makk: Rin was referring to the events at the near side, while the Alter Egos are introduced after Hakuno deals with Rin and Rani, where Melt said they were just born. Read this interlude starting from 14:35 again, the original BB here divided herself because her frame couldn't support the expansion. She already confirmed back in CCC that she gets smaller and weaker the more Alter Egos she creates. Besides the one in CCC did not absorb physical structures, but added data from AI and servants into her memory, and her frame was already distorting due to that.

Pre-Moon Cell BB can compete in computation ability and boasts equal offensive power, but it's not equal to the perspective over Universe of Records and the real world provided by the Moon Cell Core.

@Iapitus: Which she got after merging with the Moon Cell and due to the properties of the Universe of Records. Rin explained this already, events are recorded like a book in UoR and with the Moon Cell BB can get perspective from outside it. The one walking around is her, that's why her frame had distortions.

They were fighting inside Lip's world and she was trying to kick BB out of it. That's pretty much what's said and implied. Though, she might be able to restore herself by hacking the digital world too, so I won't exclude that.

@Upgrade man: You misunderstand. I am talking about the mecha BB referenced in the interlude.

 

[Makkurona]

So, conclusions yet?