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I did just watch a full hour of Bob Ross, so I am calm at this point
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Bayonetta's Witch Time is not a time slow.
- Thread starter swaggyzealot
- Start date
- Status
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Swaggy has been the least provocative person in the thread. I'm surprised they haven't gone nuclear from how many times they were provoked but that just my opinion.
@WeeklyBattles
Swaggy has pretty much already addressed the second and third timestamp in this post on the first page and I don't understand how the first one can't be explained with super-speed and magic. We know basic angels can counteract Witch Time and we know Witch Time can stack, the meaning here would just be Bayonetta stacking her speed amp to effectively negate the angels' own speed amp. Witch Time vs Jubileus could just be Bayonetta taking her speed amps straight to the max instead of stacking it over time.
@WeeklyBattles
Swaggy has pretty much already addressed the second and third timestamp in this post on the first page and I don't understand how the first one can't be explained with super-speed and magic. We know basic angels can counteract Witch Time and we know Witch Time can stack, the meaning here would just be Bayonetta stacking her speed amp to effectively negate the angels' own speed amp. Witch Time vs Jubileus could just be Bayonetta taking her speed amps straight to the max instead of stacking it over time.
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Jesus Christ, Reaper. I hope that when the "V.A.T.S. isn't actually time-manip" thread comes out it doesn't become this long and hostile.
Anyways, maybe some authors keep a very firm grasp on their work's powers, but as someone who's done more than one roleplays spanning over three months, I know that sometimes they don't, and what they originally planned for their powers become either forgotten or simply contradicted. The bottom line for me is this: if Shuntaro Furukawa came out tomorrow and told us that Mario is tier 0 I don't think we'd accept it. Obviously this is an extreme example, but my point is that author statements help, but not if they blatantly contradict what is displayed in their work, especially given in this case they're known for trolling from time-to-time.
I agree with Weekly. Word of God aside, it acts like time-slow, and there's physical evidence which supports that which Weekly has finally provided. To me, text statements which may contradict that hold much less value, and for that reason time manipulation should stay.
Anyways, maybe some authors keep a very firm grasp on their work's powers, but as someone who's done more than one roleplays spanning over three months, I know that sometimes they don't, and what they originally planned for their powers become either forgotten or simply contradicted. The bottom line for me is this: if Shuntaro Furukawa came out tomorrow and told us that Mario is tier 0 I don't think we'd accept it. Obviously this is an extreme example, but my point is that author statements help, but not if they blatantly contradict what is displayed in their work, especially given in this case they're known for trolling from time-to-time.
I agree with Weekly. Word of God aside, it acts like time-slow, and there's physical evidence which supports that which Weekly has finally provided. To me, text statements which may contradict that hold much less value, and for that reason time manipulation should stay.
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Honestly the whole “stacking her speed amp over the angels speed amp” sounds like a whole lot of mental gymnastics. It could all easily be attributed to witch time being a time slow as well as a speed amp. Whenever witch time stacks in game, which has only happened once, everything gets much much slower and the screen turns a darker shade of purple. The first one doesn’t look like that at all, nor do any of the other moments.
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I also agree with Weekly, also DaReaper seems to have apologized for his action so we should stop commenting on that part.
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Swaggy? Not provocative? Jeez man you blind, two says broken in one post... twice
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Okay. Sorry about that then. I just saw the "lol" comment.
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Well, let's drop the issue and move on please.
Anyway, it seems like Weekly's side has stronger support now.
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Let's all just forget about it, better for everyone.
Edit: Self-Jinx
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It's not mental gymnastics if you view Witch Time as a speed boost or simply entertain the idea for a moment, it is effectively the same. The one time Witch Time stacks, it doesn't look anything different than the normal Witch Time effects that appear in normal gameplay settings.
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I have entertained the idea, it seems pretty ridiculous that Jeanne just always has her amps the exact same as Bayonetta's
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It does look different? This is what happens when witch time stacks, there’s another burst of energy. And well, you’ve seen a regular witch time. It goes without saying that to “stack” a witch time, there’s a visual cue, which is not present In Jeannes case. It is ridiculous to expect these angels are casually amping themselves to bayonettas speed.
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You are aware that that idea is even more ridiculous if you say Witch Time is time slow as opposed to beings fighting at insane speeds?
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How is that ridiculous..? It’s been the assumption for well, however long since Bayonetta has had a page here. I don’t get how it’s ridiculous at all..
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That isn't different from normal Witch Time besides making them faster. I'm confused on what you mean by "to “stack” a witch time, there’s a visual cue, which is not present In Jeannes case". The argument isn't that angels are casually amping themselves to Bayonetta's speed, it's that angels are far faster than thought initially and Bayonetta/Lumen Sages can boost their speed above that of angels. Angels have no anti-feats as far as I know that would not make it unreasonable that they can't be that fast/amp themselves to a high degree.
How is that ridiculous..? It’s been the assumption for well, however long since Bayonetta has had a page here. I don’t get how it’s ridiculous at all..
Because it's equally ridiculous to say Bayo and Jeanne are slowing down time at the exact same moments instead of Bayo/Jeanne giving each other access to normal speed in slowed time considering that they're Witch Time can affect each other when they are fighting.
Rip 3-A Bayonetta if Kamiya's word isn't to be trusted. Back to the peak God Tiers being the only 3-A/Low 2-C.
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No.. that makes no sense. Of course angels aren’t as slow as we think, some of the weaker angels that is. But if it’s a speed boost, then the entire point is to make Bayonetta faster than her opponent. Bayonetta is already shown to blitz and overpower even higher ranking angels, so if you think that the angels compare to a speed stacked Bayonetta then well.. They don’t have anti feats, but that doesn’t mean they scale to Bayonetta entirely. She’s always been stronger than them.
In that instance it’s not ridiculous, Kamiya said they’re entering a serious mode, not to mention Jeannes witch time was geared towards the angels. Bayonetta only stopped the environment initially
Uhh anyways.. we’ve already addressed WoG stuff so I’m ignoring that
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I'm going to comment on the last two parts because there are enough people going to be doing that top part. Kamiya's word during an interview is trusted, you have TWO(yes you did convince me one another, which is the number 2 that swaggy said) solid points, vs 8 solid points.
Its not like Bayonetta or jeanne have immunity, and angels have effected them with time nonsense themselves, though like Comic said, Bayonetta's time manip is catered towards angels
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As for how long Bayonetta has had a page... well since 2010
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We should wait the OP can refute/respond
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- Thread starter
- #301
Alright, like I said, I'm going to readdress all Weekly's points he made in the first game. I will also address additional points made in the comment chain above.
And Antvasima, these walls of text are necessary to address the other side, if you want this debate to be fair. The other side cannot present multiple arguments, without me being allowed to address them all.
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First game stuff
28:16 The first instance of Witch Time, and 29:25 Witch Time stacking. Of note, the fodder angels are visibly not slowed down by the original Witch Time, which going by the assumption that it is a speed amp would make the weakest of the weak angels faster than Jubileus.
Even if we say Witch Time is a time slow, then the weakest of the weak angels are demonstrating a "time slow resist," while Jubileus does not. In either case, of WT being a time slow or speed boost, there are lower ranking angels demonstrating an ability that Jubileus does not have.
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31:52 Jeanne deactivates Witch Time to make the truck that separated them move faster so she could make a getaway. Unless Jeanne can somehow turn off Bayonetta's speed amp by deactivating her own, this instance in particular heavily points toward it being a time slow.
Jeanne's Witch Time is not deactivated here, it is Bayonetta's. There is in-lore reasoning why this would occur in this exact moment. Witch Time requires a "sound state of mind," and a "complete grasp of emotional energy." This is the first time that Bayonetta has seen another Umbra Witch, and she has just pointed a gun at her head, and is staring her down. It is not unreasonable to say that Bayonetta had become emotionally compromised/unfocused in this one moment. We can see even see the shock/uncertainty in Bayonetta's face at various instances during this scene.
Also, let's consider the other side. I state this here, and these are genuine questions (within the quoted text) that I would like answered for those who believe Witch Time is a time slow.
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1:16:24 "Perhaps if i were to unleash some Temporal Witch Power on it, my situation would improve."
"Temporal Witch Power" does mean time control. Temporal=/=time (keeping in mind all definitions). We also have this document explaining that this Temporal Powers (Temporal Control), is a physical boost (superspeed with super perception). Again, there is no reason for Antonio's notes be incorrect, when he has only given us true information. To discredit Antonio, is to discredit a major portion of the lore in the first game.
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1:42:43 Another instance of an Angel that isnt Jubileus being unaffected by Witch Time. Either theyre faster than Jubileus or its time slow, the latter of which is further supported by Bayo moving the rocks she touches as they are being interacted with by her but the ones she doesnt arent moving until she deactivates it and they immediately fall, consistent with the mechanics of the door feat above.
Once more more, if Witch Time was a time slow, this would still the case where Angels are unaffected by Witch Time's slow. Also, the rocks she touches wouldn't make sense in a true time slow. They would not accelerate forward fast at all, due to the atoms of the rocks still being slowed. Fiction presents time slows and stops in reality breaking ways, and I don't think people have considered that these are not how these powers would work in real life. The same goes for superspeed, it is also a reality breaking power, which comes with "secondary powers," that allow it to function. I explain this here, when I address Roy.
Also, the door feat isn't a solid argument, since in this case it makes perfect sense in a speed boost, without handwaving physics. The doors are obviously magic, and actually are a type of golem. When Bayonetta "activates" the door in real time, it moves forward, and freezes in place. If Bayonetta was moving super fast, she would simply be able to run past the door, for the brief moment it freezes in place.
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2:12:38 Another instance of an Angel that isnt Jubileus being unaffected by Witch Time. Bayo also uses Witch Time here to set up chain a reaction attack which move at normal speed when Bayo is touching them but slow down to a near stop when she launches them but then move at normal speed when she deactivates Witch Time, the mechanics of which would make little sense if it were just a speed amp.
The mechanics also make little sense is it were a time slow. If you slow time, you slow everything: objects, people, air molecules, atoms, etc. If Bayonetta threw a baseball during a time slow, the baseball would not retain any of her relative movement, the moment it left her hand, it would slow to a screeching halt.
Every time a speed boost would not make sense, a time slow would not also make sense, for similar (and different) reasons.
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3:04:43 Witch Time allows the user to physically grab and stand on watdr as if it were solid. Not just running across the surface like in the previous clip Matt showd but physically treating water as a solid surface without sinking into it. If it were just a speed amp it wouldnt make sense for her to not sink when she stands still.
Lets think about this critically for a moment. In fiction, time slows need established rules for it be functional for the user. In majority (nearly all) of the cases, whenever someone with a time slow/stop interacts with an object, that object becomes relative to them for brief moment. That is the reason why (theoretically), if Bayonetta's rock toss was a time slow, the rocks would move for a short distance instead of slowing down immediately. This is also why when DIO throws knives, the knives don't stop immediately when they leave his hand, they become relative to him for a brief moment, before returning to the "frozen time."
If we accept this established rule, then Bayonetta standing on water wouldn't make sense either in time slow, since she would just make the water relative to her, and she would sink instantly. And if she doesn't make the water relative to her, then she wouldn't be able to move regardless (air molecules slowing her down).
In this case, the only explanation on why Bayonetta does not sink when she stands on water, in a time slow and speed boost, is due to magic. She even has an umbran circle at her feet, that appears when she "walks," on water. I think the devs were smart enough to realize this - that standing on water wouldn't make sense, so they added a magic symbol to show she is using magic to accomplish this. (I realize this symbol may be hard to see, with the info prompt in the way, I can provide another clip if requested. If you full screen the clip, and enable HD, it is much easier to see).
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4:06:48 Another instance of an Angel that isnt Jubileus being unaffected by Witch Time when everything else in the environment is.
Again, these points don't really hold much ground when you consider the other side. Angels are still demonstrating abilities Jubileus does not have, regardless if it was a speed boost or time slow.
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5:44:37 Bayonetta once again treats water like a solid object that she can rab and use as a solid weapon. This would not be possible if it was just a speed amp.
This is actually one of the few cases where this does point it towards being a speed amp. Bayonetta gathers some droplets in her hands, breathes on it, freezing it instantly, and then throws the frozen icicle as a spear. If Bayonetta was just slowing down time, her breathing on an object, or even touching the water droplets wouldn't change it's state of matter.
If Bayonetta breathes on these droplets in a time slow, nothing would happen, since she is still moving at a "normal pace" and objects become relative to her when she interacts with it.
If Bayonetta breathes on these droplets with extremely fast speeds, it would freeze, because she is still "faster" despite the object being relative for a brief moment.
Regardless, realistically, again, this makes no sense in either case. So the literal explanation is magic.
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Second game
22:37 Witch Time slows down everything in the environment again, and skipping ahead to 23:58 is another instance of an Angel that isnt Jubileus being unaffected by initial use of Witch Time when everything else in the environment is.
I know some people aren't bothering to read my points, or check my links, since I am providing the same clips as everyone else, ask questions about them, and nobody answers. Then they link the same clips and try to use it against me.
Regardless, a self speed boost would look the same as a global/universal time slow. You become faster than everything else, so everything becomes slower. They look exactly the same.
Once more, how is an angel demonstrating "resistance" to a time slow, anymore consistent than an angel simply matching Bayonetta's speed. In either case, angels are demonstrating abilities Jubileus does not have. You keep bringing this point up, when it would be "inconsistent" regardless.
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2:15:14 Lightspeed in action again.
3:07:00 Lightspeed in action again.
Light speed, alike Witch Time, would function similar to a time stop. Nevertheless, this was actually the only scene in both games where I questioned what was going on, and I'm surprised it took this long for the other side to bring it up, when it was in the fifth comment I wrote.
Regardless, you can read what I said here.
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Other points:
Seems like it, doesn't make sense for angels to be faster then Umbra witches, since Bayonetta can dodge without witch time and Angels are unaffected by witch time anyway
Other side: doesn't make sense for angels to "resist" a time slow by Umbra Witiches, since Bayonetta can dodge without Witch Time and Angels are unaffected by Witch Time anyway.
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Honestly the whole “stacking her speed amp over the angels speed amp” sounds like a whole lot of mental gymnastics. It could all easily be attributed to witch time being a time slow as well as a speed amp. Whenever witch time stacks in game, which has only happened once, everything gets much much slower and the screen turns a darker shade of purple. The first one doesn’t look like that at all, nor do any of the other moments.
I'm going to bold your main point above, "It could all easily be attributed to witch time being a time slow as well as a speed amp." Yes, this was my original point: a time slow and speed amp look and function the same in fiction, which is why I'm not attempting to prove my side via game clips - they look exactly the same. This is why I provide in-game texts stating Witch Time is speed boost, along with WoG.
There are no in-game texts Witch Time is a time slow. I find it "mental gymnastics," to try and reason this ability being a time slow, when the game is explicit in telling you what Witch Time actually is.
And whenever Witch Time "stacks," everything gets slower because Jeanne and Bayonetta become faster than everything else. They become faster than everything else during a time slow, and they become faster than everything in a speed boost. If you question why there is even an "aura," I address that in the same comment I addressed Balder's Light Speed.
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3:07:00 is also good for light speed being a time slow / stop, since Balder isn’t necessarily using some super paced movement. He just teleported behind her, and aligned the gullets while light speed was activated. I’m against the notion that he blitzed her via speed amp, since she swiftly reacted to his placement the moment it was switched off. Not to mention she casually keeps pace with him all through Bayonetta 2.
Light Speed freezes everything during gameplay. Witch Time slows everything during gameplay. If we are taking these factors into play, then Light Speed is stronger than Witch Time by a huge margin.
If Light Speed was a time stop, Bayonetta couldn't move, and Bayonetta couldn't see. There would be no way for her to even notice Balder did anything, until the last second. She would need to swiftly react to his placement the moment it was switched off regardless.
If Light Speed was a speed boost, Balder simply increases his speed by a massive margin and then does the same action. In this case, since Balder isn't actually freezing time, Bayonetta can still "see" Balder. She doesn't have Witch Time activated, why is why appears frozen in time. She is still relative to her environment's time. To Bayonetta, Balder instantly blitzed behind her, and then she instantly dodged the bullets. Like I've said before, it is nearly the exact same in both cases.
(Also, Balder can actually teleport, so in the scene above, he amps his speed where becomes faster than Bayonetta can react, and then just actually teleports behind her. I only bring this up, because Balder's page doesn't state that he teleport, despite it being clear in game.)
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Why is it not also ridiculous that Jeanne always has her time slows the exact same as Bayonetta's?
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I'm confused on your argument here, Jeanne does show this visual cue when she stacks her Witch Time. Why do you think the visual cue is so massively larger than all other visual cues? - It's because Bayonetta and Jeanne are amping themselves at the same time.
And if you believe it is ridiculous that Bayonetta and Jeanne amp their speed at the same time, why would it also not be ridiculous that Bayonetta and Jeanne activate Witch Time again at the same time. We know via gameplay that Witch Time can activated against Jeanne, so in either case, they would have to be doing at the same time in that scene.
Also, Kamiya says (in the clip you linked), "Bayonetta and Jeanne kick it into high gear here." Not just Jeanne, or just Bayonetta. Both of them.
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No.. that makes no sense. Of course angels aren’t as slow as we think, some of the weaker angels that is. But if it’s a speed boost, then the entire point is to make Bayonetta faster than her opponent. Bayonetta is already shown to blitz and overpower even higher ranking angels, so if you think that the angels compare to a speed stacked Bayonetta then well.. They don’t have anti feats, but that doesn’t mean they scale to Bayonetta entirely. She’s always been stronger than them. In that instance it’s not ridiculous, Kamiya said they’re entering a serious mode, not to mention Jeannes witch time was geared towards the angels. Bayonetta only stopped the environment initially. Uhh anyways.. we’ve already addressed WoG stuff so I’m ignoring that
Other side of the same argument: The entire point of a Witch Time slow is to make Bayonetta faster than her opponent. Bayonetta has already shown to blitz and overpower even higher ranking angels, so if you think that the angels compare to Bayonetta while she is using a time slow then well...
I don't think you understand, that the same exact argument, applies to WT being a time slow. Angels can be effected by a time slow. Bayonetta uses WT to become faster than her opponents by slowing down everything. Yet there are still angels who show "resistance" to this time slow - they are matching Bayonetta's speed in her time slow.
And Bayonetta's Witch Time does not stop at the environment, this would go against all cases of Witch Time in the game. Witch Time effects everything. Only beings who would be able to to compete with Witch Time's speed/time difference, would be able to move in Witch Time.
Again, Bayonetta is considered Universal because of Kamiya's statements. If we are to discredit Kamiya stating Witch Time is a speed boost, then we should discredit Jubileus being universal, and then downgrade Bayonetta appropriately.
Jubliues being universal is not supported by any in-game feats, or events. Nothing indicates Jubliues is universal. Only Kamiya said she was.
Witch Time being a speed boost is supported by in-game texts. The game tells us what WT is. Kamiya confirms what the game already tells us.
If we are to discredit the bottom line, then we must discredit the above.
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Also, I want to explain this point one more time. In a true time slow/stop, if physics applied - nothing would move. If you threw a baseball, and it became relative to you (bc of magic), it would then also slow down once it left your hand because the atoms of that baseball are still slow. If you threw a baseball, and it became relative to you (bc of magic), and retained your relativity after you threw it (bc of magic), it would accelerate at relativistic speeds, and essentiality become a ball of flying plasma with nuclear forces. (EDIT: made a small error here, technically speaking, even if the ball did retain your relativity throughout the flight, the ball still would slow immediately when it left your hand, bc the air molecules are still slowed)
The only way for these rocks to behave the way it does a time slow, is if Bayonetta can make objects relative to her for a short moment, the objects gains some "relativity field" (that also effects the air molecules around it), and then loses that relatively field extremely quickly. The physics do not make sense. Like wise, the physics do not make sense with superspeed. If you threw something while you were in a "super state," the baseball you threw would also become nuclear, and obliterate the air and everything around it. Superpowers do not make sense. You cannot try to argue that a super speeds physics would not make sense, when a time slow physics equally make no sense.
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Once more, I will ask this question, since it has been consistently ignored. Why does Witch Time produce afterimages? Why would the devs intentionally display a time slow, with after images? Would this not make more sense in a speed boost?
And Antvasima, these walls of text are necessary to address the other side, if you want this debate to be fair. The other side cannot present multiple arguments, without me being allowed to address them all.
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First game stuff
28:16 The first instance of Witch Time, and 29:25 Witch Time stacking. Of note, the fodder angels are visibly not slowed down by the original Witch Time, which going by the assumption that it is a speed amp would make the weakest of the weak angels faster than Jubileus.
Even if we say Witch Time is a time slow, then the weakest of the weak angels are demonstrating a "time slow resist," while Jubileus does not. In either case, of WT being a time slow or speed boost, there are lower ranking angels demonstrating an ability that Jubileus does not have.
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31:52 Jeanne deactivates Witch Time to make the truck that separated them move faster so she could make a getaway. Unless Jeanne can somehow turn off Bayonetta's speed amp by deactivating her own, this instance in particular heavily points toward it being a time slow.
Jeanne's Witch Time is not deactivated here, it is Bayonetta's. There is in-lore reasoning why this would occur in this exact moment. Witch Time requires a "sound state of mind," and a "complete grasp of emotional energy." This is the first time that Bayonetta has seen another Umbra Witch, and she has just pointed a gun at her head, and is staring her down. It is not unreasonable to say that Bayonetta had become emotionally compromised/unfocused in this one moment. We can see even see the shock/uncertainty in Bayonetta's face at various instances during this scene.
Also, let's consider the other side. I state this here, and these are genuine questions (within the quoted text) that I would like answered for those who believe Witch Time is a time slow.
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1:16:24 "Perhaps if i were to unleash some Temporal Witch Power on it, my situation would improve."
"Temporal Witch Power" does mean time control. Temporal=/=time (keeping in mind all definitions). We also have this document explaining that this Temporal Powers (Temporal Control), is a physical boost (superspeed with super perception). Again, there is no reason for Antonio's notes be incorrect, when he has only given us true information. To discredit Antonio, is to discredit a major portion of the lore in the first game.
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1:42:43 Another instance of an Angel that isnt Jubileus being unaffected by Witch Time. Either theyre faster than Jubileus or its time slow, the latter of which is further supported by Bayo moving the rocks she touches as they are being interacted with by her but the ones she doesnt arent moving until she deactivates it and they immediately fall, consistent with the mechanics of the door feat above.
Once more more, if Witch Time was a time slow, this would still the case where Angels are unaffected by Witch Time's slow. Also, the rocks she touches wouldn't make sense in a true time slow. They would not accelerate forward fast at all, due to the atoms of the rocks still being slowed. Fiction presents time slows and stops in reality breaking ways, and I don't think people have considered that these are not how these powers would work in real life. The same goes for superspeed, it is also a reality breaking power, which comes with "secondary powers," that allow it to function. I explain this here, when I address Roy.
Also, the door feat isn't a solid argument, since in this case it makes perfect sense in a speed boost, without handwaving physics. The doors are obviously magic, and actually are a type of golem. When Bayonetta "activates" the door in real time, it moves forward, and freezes in place. If Bayonetta was moving super fast, she would simply be able to run past the door, for the brief moment it freezes in place.
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2:12:38 Another instance of an Angel that isnt Jubileus being unaffected by Witch Time. Bayo also uses Witch Time here to set up chain a reaction attack which move at normal speed when Bayo is touching them but slow down to a near stop when she launches them but then move at normal speed when she deactivates Witch Time, the mechanics of which would make little sense if it were just a speed amp.
The mechanics also make little sense is it were a time slow. If you slow time, you slow everything: objects, people, air molecules, atoms, etc. If Bayonetta threw a baseball during a time slow, the baseball would not retain any of her relative movement, the moment it left her hand, it would slow to a screeching halt.
Every time a speed boost would not make sense, a time slow would not also make sense, for similar (and different) reasons.
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3:04:43 Witch Time allows the user to physically grab and stand on watdr as if it were solid. Not just running across the surface like in the previous clip Matt showd but physically treating water as a solid surface without sinking into it. If it were just a speed amp it wouldnt make sense for her to not sink when she stands still.
Lets think about this critically for a moment. In fiction, time slows need established rules for it be functional for the user. In majority (nearly all) of the cases, whenever someone with a time slow/stop interacts with an object, that object becomes relative to them for brief moment. That is the reason why (theoretically), if Bayonetta's rock toss was a time slow, the rocks would move for a short distance instead of slowing down immediately. This is also why when DIO throws knives, the knives don't stop immediately when they leave his hand, they become relative to him for a brief moment, before returning to the "frozen time."
If we accept this established rule, then Bayonetta standing on water wouldn't make sense either in time slow, since she would just make the water relative to her, and she would sink instantly. And if she doesn't make the water relative to her, then she wouldn't be able to move regardless (air molecules slowing her down).
In this case, the only explanation on why Bayonetta does not sink when she stands on water, in a time slow and speed boost, is due to magic. She even has an umbran circle at her feet, that appears when she "walks," on water. I think the devs were smart enough to realize this - that standing on water wouldn't make sense, so they added a magic symbol to show she is using magic to accomplish this. (I realize this symbol may be hard to see, with the info prompt in the way, I can provide another clip if requested. If you full screen the clip, and enable HD, it is much easier to see).
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4:06:48 Another instance of an Angel that isnt Jubileus being unaffected by Witch Time when everything else in the environment is.
Again, these points don't really hold much ground when you consider the other side. Angels are still demonstrating abilities Jubileus does not have, regardless if it was a speed boost or time slow.
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5:44:37 Bayonetta once again treats water like a solid object that she can rab and use as a solid weapon. This would not be possible if it was just a speed amp.
This is actually one of the few cases where this does point it towards being a speed amp. Bayonetta gathers some droplets in her hands, breathes on it, freezing it instantly, and then throws the frozen icicle as a spear. If Bayonetta was just slowing down time, her breathing on an object, or even touching the water droplets wouldn't change it's state of matter.
If Bayonetta breathes on these droplets in a time slow, nothing would happen, since she is still moving at a "normal pace" and objects become relative to her when she interacts with it.
If Bayonetta breathes on these droplets with extremely fast speeds, it would freeze, because she is still "faster" despite the object being relative for a brief moment.
Regardless, realistically, again, this makes no sense in either case. So the literal explanation is magic.
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Second game
22:37 Witch Time slows down everything in the environment again, and skipping ahead to 23:58 is another instance of an Angel that isnt Jubileus being unaffected by initial use of Witch Time when everything else in the environment is.
I know some people aren't bothering to read my points, or check my links, since I am providing the same clips as everyone else, ask questions about them, and nobody answers. Then they link the same clips and try to use it against me.
Regardless, a self speed boost would look the same as a global/universal time slow. You become faster than everything else, so everything becomes slower. They look exactly the same.
Once more, how is an angel demonstrating "resistance" to a time slow, anymore consistent than an angel simply matching Bayonetta's speed. In either case, angels are demonstrating abilities Jubileus does not have. You keep bringing this point up, when it would be "inconsistent" regardless.
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2:15:14 Lightspeed in action again.
3:07:00 Lightspeed in action again.
Light speed, alike Witch Time, would function similar to a time stop. Nevertheless, this was actually the only scene in both games where I questioned what was going on, and I'm surprised it took this long for the other side to bring it up, when it was in the fifth comment I wrote.
Regardless, you can read what I said here.
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Other points:
Seems like it, doesn't make sense for angels to be faster then Umbra witches, since Bayonetta can dodge without witch time and Angels are unaffected by witch time anyway
Other side: doesn't make sense for angels to "resist" a time slow by Umbra Witiches, since Bayonetta can dodge without Witch Time and Angels are unaffected by Witch Time anyway.
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Honestly the whole “stacking her speed amp over the angels speed amp” sounds like a whole lot of mental gymnastics. It could all easily be attributed to witch time being a time slow as well as a speed amp. Whenever witch time stacks in game, which has only happened once, everything gets much much slower and the screen turns a darker shade of purple. The first one doesn’t look like that at all, nor do any of the other moments.
I'm going to bold your main point above, "It could all easily be attributed to witch time being a time slow as well as a speed amp." Yes, this was my original point: a time slow and speed amp look and function the same in fiction, which is why I'm not attempting to prove my side via game clips - they look exactly the same. This is why I provide in-game texts stating Witch Time is speed boost, along with WoG.
There are no in-game texts Witch Time is a time slow. I find it "mental gymnastics," to try and reason this ability being a time slow, when the game is explicit in telling you what Witch Time actually is.
And whenever Witch Time "stacks," everything gets slower because Jeanne and Bayonetta become faster than everything else. They become faster than everything else during a time slow, and they become faster than everything in a speed boost. If you question why there is even an "aura," I address that in the same comment I addressed Balder's Light Speed.
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3:07:00 is also good for light speed being a time slow / stop, since Balder isn’t necessarily using some super paced movement. He just teleported behind her, and aligned the gullets while light speed was activated. I’m against the notion that he blitzed her via speed amp, since she swiftly reacted to his placement the moment it was switched off. Not to mention she casually keeps pace with him all through Bayonetta 2.
Light Speed freezes everything during gameplay. Witch Time slows everything during gameplay. If we are taking these factors into play, then Light Speed is stronger than Witch Time by a huge margin.
If Light Speed was a time stop, Bayonetta couldn't move, and Bayonetta couldn't see. There would be no way for her to even notice Balder did anything, until the last second. She would need to swiftly react to his placement the moment it was switched off regardless.
If Light Speed was a speed boost, Balder simply increases his speed by a massive margin and then does the same action. In this case, since Balder isn't actually freezing time, Bayonetta can still "see" Balder. She doesn't have Witch Time activated, why is why appears frozen in time. She is still relative to her environment's time. To Bayonetta, Balder instantly blitzed behind her, and then she instantly dodged the bullets. Like I've said before, it is nearly the exact same in both cases.
(Also, Balder can actually teleport, so in the scene above, he amps his speed where becomes faster than Bayonetta can react, and then just actually teleports behind her. I only bring this up, because Balder's page doesn't state that he teleport, despite it being clear in game.)
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I have entertained the idea, it seems pretty ridiculous that Jeanne just always has her amps the exact same as Bayonetta's
Why is it not also ridiculous that Jeanne always has her time slows the exact same as Bayonetta's?
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It does look different? This is what happens when witch time stacks, there’s another burst of energy. And well, you’ve seen a regular witch time. It goes without saying that to “stack” a witch time, there’s a visual cue, which is not present In Jeannes case. It is ridiculous to expect these angels are casually amping themselves to bayonettas speed
I'm confused on your argument here, Jeanne does show this visual cue when she stacks her Witch Time. Why do you think the visual cue is so massively larger than all other visual cues? - It's because Bayonetta and Jeanne are amping themselves at the same time.
And if you believe it is ridiculous that Bayonetta and Jeanne amp their speed at the same time, why would it also not be ridiculous that Bayonetta and Jeanne activate Witch Time again at the same time. We know via gameplay that Witch Time can activated against Jeanne, so in either case, they would have to be doing at the same time in that scene.
Also, Kamiya says (in the clip you linked), "Bayonetta and Jeanne kick it into high gear here." Not just Jeanne, or just Bayonetta. Both of them.
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No.. that makes no sense. Of course angels aren’t as slow as we think, some of the weaker angels that is. But if it’s a speed boost, then the entire point is to make Bayonetta faster than her opponent. Bayonetta is already shown to blitz and overpower even higher ranking angels, so if you think that the angels compare to a speed stacked Bayonetta then well.. They don’t have anti feats, but that doesn’t mean they scale to Bayonetta entirely. She’s always been stronger than them. In that instance it’s not ridiculous, Kamiya said they’re entering a serious mode, not to mention Jeannes witch time was geared towards the angels. Bayonetta only stopped the environment initially. Uhh anyways.. we’ve already addressed WoG stuff so I’m ignoring that
Other side of the same argument: The entire point of a Witch Time slow is to make Bayonetta faster than her opponent. Bayonetta has already shown to blitz and overpower even higher ranking angels, so if you think that the angels compare to Bayonetta while she is using a time slow then well...
I don't think you understand, that the same exact argument, applies to WT being a time slow. Angels can be effected by a time slow. Bayonetta uses WT to become faster than her opponents by slowing down everything. Yet there are still angels who show "resistance" to this time slow - they are matching Bayonetta's speed in her time slow.
And Bayonetta's Witch Time does not stop at the environment, this would go against all cases of Witch Time in the game. Witch Time effects everything. Only beings who would be able to to compete with Witch Time's speed/time difference, would be able to move in Witch Time.
Again, Bayonetta is considered Universal because of Kamiya's statements. If we are to discredit Kamiya stating Witch Time is a speed boost, then we should discredit Jubileus being universal, and then downgrade Bayonetta appropriately.
Jubliues being universal is not supported by any in-game feats, or events. Nothing indicates Jubliues is universal. Only Kamiya said she was.
Witch Time being a speed boost is supported by in-game texts. The game tells us what WT is. Kamiya confirms what the game already tells us.
If we are to discredit the bottom line, then we must discredit the above.
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Also, I want to explain this point one more time. In a true time slow/stop, if physics applied - nothing would move. If you threw a baseball, and it became relative to you (bc of magic), it would then also slow down once it left your hand because the atoms of that baseball are still slow. If you threw a baseball, and it became relative to you (bc of magic), and retained your relativity after you threw it (bc of magic), it would accelerate at relativistic speeds, and essentiality become a ball of flying plasma with nuclear forces. (EDIT: made a small error here, technically speaking, even if the ball did retain your relativity throughout the flight, the ball still would slow immediately when it left your hand, bc the air molecules are still slowed)
The only way for these rocks to behave the way it does a time slow, is if Bayonetta can make objects relative to her for a short moment, the objects gains some "relativity field" (that also effects the air molecules around it), and then loses that relatively field extremely quickly. The physics do not make sense. Like wise, the physics do not make sense with superspeed. If you threw something while you were in a "super state," the baseball you threw would also become nuclear, and obliterate the air and everything around it. Superpowers do not make sense. You cannot try to argue that a super speeds physics would not make sense, when a time slow physics equally make no sense.
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Once more, I will ask this question, since it has been consistently ignored. Why does Witch Time produce afterimages? Why would the devs intentionally display a time slow, with after images? Would this not make more sense in a speed boost?
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With all that said above, again, Witch Time is never said to be a time slow or time manipulation in-game. The only time Witch Time is referred to as a time slow: is within 5 lines of the game guide, and the Smash Bro's trailer (which wouldn't matter anyway, since it isn't canon).
Witch Time is said to be a speed boost, 3 times by Kamiya.
1. Once in an interview in a professional interview 3 months after the game was released.
2. Again in the same interview with a different quote.
3 A twitter post. (Note: auto translate isn't accurate. I outsourced my translation here. And there is very little reason for two random users to be incorrect and come to the same translation, or be biased in any way. If you do not trust this translation, find another translation not via software)
Witch Time is said to be a speed boost, two times in game.
1. Once in the game by a reputable source.
2. And another time in an info-prompt.
And WoG and in-game statements explaining this ability, should take precedent over a guidebook.
I genuinely believe people are having a hard time seeing this from an objective standpoint. I'm not sure why people claim the evidence isn't clear, when it is. I had a difficult time recanting my belief that Witch Time was a time slow, because that's what I always believed. But finding all this information from outside sources (WoG), and the game itself, it seems clear in the intention.
Witch Time is said to be a speed boost, 3 times by Kamiya.
1. Once in an interview in a professional interview 3 months after the game was released.
2. Again in the same interview with a different quote.
3 A twitter post. (Note: auto translate isn't accurate. I outsourced my translation here. And there is very little reason for two random users to be incorrect and come to the same translation, or be biased in any way. If you do not trust this translation, find another translation not via software)
Witch Time is said to be a speed boost, two times in game.
1. Once in the game by a reputable source.
2. And another time in an info-prompt.
And WoG and in-game statements explaining this ability, should take precedent over a guidebook.
I genuinely believe people are having a hard time seeing this from an objective standpoint. I'm not sure why people claim the evidence isn't clear, when it is. I had a difficult time recanting my belief that Witch Time was a time slow, because that's what I always believed. But finding all this information from outside sources (WoG), and the game itself, it seems clear in the intention.
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I don't think either of us is going to budge, so I'd say unbiased mods/community members should come to a conclusion.
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I'm not quoting that behemoth so I'm just going to say something here, first of all Temporal's definition is literally "relating to time" so yeah, doubtful that word would be used in its other definition since that definition is worldly affairs as opposed to supernatural. Also an hourglass symbol almost always signifies time.
Also, it makes sense for some angels to resist Time Slow, Jubileus not being one of them is strange yes, but its not the infallible argument you think it is.
When Witch Time stacks a wave goes out and makes the area a darker shade of purple, such a wave in fiction usually signifies a time stop or time slow of some kind, Dio and Ainz being two notable examples. I do not see why we should treat this any differently.
I won't bother for the others. Others can have fun tearing them to Itty bitty pieces
Also, it makes sense for some angels to resist Time Slow, Jubileus not being one of them is strange yes, but its not the infallible argument you think it is.
When Witch Time stacks a wave goes out and makes the area a darker shade of purple, such a wave in fiction usually signifies a time stop or time slow of some kind, Dio and Ainz being two notable examples. I do not see why we should treat this any differently.
I won't bother for the others. Others can have fun tearing them to Itty bitty pieces
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Refer to definition 1b. (Not giving an opinion here just providing evidence.)
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Should prob get mod opinions now
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Except the source of Quicksilver's ability is never clarified. The fact that he can listen to music at a normal rate implies that it could be Time manipulation as well. The Flash AFAIK has never shown a feat similar to Dio's knife throwing or Bayo's rock pushing but he actually has strong speed manipulation powers which he uses to minimize collateral damage and could theoretically create a similar feat. But generally speed manipulation and time manipulation would appear identical
Bayonetta's feat can be explained by self time acceleration or environmental time slow - which are identical. If you want to phrase it as speed boost, you can't simply have a self speed boost. Rather, it has to have a more general speed manipulation power because she can differentially decide the speed of things she's not in contact with - i.e. her bullets vs the rocks she pushed. At which point it's just time manipulation with extra steps
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Yes, it is not an infallible argument, which is why I am pointing out the hypocrisy of the other side arguing the same the thing, again and again.
This, I have been saying this. I have said this almost every time I've explained the powers. I have said a self time acceleration/environmental time slow are nigh identical to general speed manipulation powers, by virtue of how fiction portrays them. Creating relative time/speed fields are innately intertwined with these powers. There is no universal power set description for superspeed, or time manipulation - fiction changes "the rules" all the time because it they do not make sense - regardless, there seems to be a similar trend that they follow.
I have said that self time manipulation powers and super speed (with how they function in fiction) are almost the same, time and time again. I have said that they are so similar with how they are portrayed, that the only difference is semantics - since both powersets demonstrate nonsensical characteristics that are extremely similar.
Superspeed is never just super speed in fictional media - it is speed manipulation.
Time slow/stopping is never just time stopping in fictional media - it is time manipulation.
And Quicksilver is explicitly said to have speed powers, he just manipulates the speed on other objects, the same way time stoppers/slowers innately manipulate the relative time of other objects. They work based on the same principle.
Both powersets make you "exist" faster than everything else.
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Here's the problem with Witch time being a speed amp instead of time slow... why didn't Bayonetta just blitz Jubileus to hell and back? Why does it seem like whatever the angels name was again was teleporting instead of blitzing? And most importantly, what is they're base speed? You need to answer the ladder question if you get this through, it would make no sense to scale Bayonetta to Jubileus anymore, since she could've just been speed amping herself the entirety of the fight, and during the beginning of Bayonetta 1 whats that environmental time slow about? Why couldn't Bayonetta speed amp herself if she could slow down her surroundings? Answer me that
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For the same reason she didn't just use her time slow to blitz Jubileus? It's the same thing either way dude. If Bayonetta didn't use her Witch Time to give her a speed boost for the whole fight, Bayonetta didn't use her Witch Time to give her a time slow the whole fight. It's the same thing.
And if you are referring to Balder, is it because he can teleport. He can literally teleport.
Their base speed, is regular base speed. Just normal, regular speed.
Again, if we are going off gameplay. Bayonetta only uses Witch Time after she dodges during the Jubileus fight. Why didn't Bayonetta just slow everything down, and retain the time difference between her and Jubileus? It's the same exact argument. Bayonetta wouldn't be using her powers fully to her advantage. It's the same thing.
And in the beginning, if we believe WT is a speed boost, it isn't an environmental time slow. It is simply Bayonetta boosting her "speed." Everything looks slower, and appears slower, because Bayonetta is perceiving everything faster, and moving faster.
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Or... probably PIS.
You were trying to use Balder's teleportation as evidence for Witch Time being a speed amp earlier, which is why I mentioned it
It wouldn't make sense however, Bayonetta should be slower then Jubileus if she has a speed amp but yeah your probably right on this one
PIS probably, basically every verse I have knowledge in and support has at least one instance of PIS, in the case of Warriors and Warcraft many cases of PIS.
I... doubt Bayonetta would only have her speed amp only amplify her reactions... seriously... honestly if Bayonetta could only amp her reactions at the beginning and not just time slow her surroundings then it would not make much sense in context
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Yes, PIS, you came to the correct conclusion. This is what I've been saying. It wouldn't make sense for either case.
And no, I wasn't using Balder's teleportation for evidence of being a speed amp. This is why I have been asking users to re-read my statements, since they are claiming I am stating things that I am not stating, and keep asking questions about points already addressed.
And yes, it wouldn't make sense either way. My reasoning was gameplay reasons. In lore Bayonetta can use WT whenever she wants, and for extended periods of time. In gameplay, she can only use it after dodges, and only for a few seconds. There is a disconnect with how WT works in cutscenes/lore and in gameplaty. Imo, it's gameplay/balancing reasons.
And Bayonetta amps her reactions and her speed. The only way Bayonetta would be able to move in a speed amp, is if her physicals matched her perception.
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Okay but this still doesnt make snse whn there are instances of opponents outright resisting it and Jeanne in particular using th activation and deactivation of it in order to use environmental hazards as attacks
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Again, opponenets are not "resisting" anything. They are simply matching Bayonetta's speed. When Flash fights Zoom, Zoom doesn't "resist" Flash's speed, he simply speeds himself up to match the Flash.
And again, Jeanne didn't deactivate a Witch Time slow, Bayonetta lost her Witch Time boost. It makes sense in context, if you read my reasoning.
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Instantly? It ain't an amp at that point its ridiculous reactions.
Makes some sense, but Jeanne was throwing crap that time manip would make seem fast.
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????? Wut. Amp = amplify. Bayonetta amplifies her reactions. ????
Also, what do you mean in the second sentence? Can you rephrase it so I can address it?
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You are saying that Angels amp themselves as soon as Bayonetta amps herself, which is the only way it would make sense
Basically Jeanne throws things fast why don't Bayonetta have the reaction times angels would need for the above
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