-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Bayonetta's Witch Time is not a time slow.
- Thread starter swaggyzealot
- Start date
- Status
- 102
- 55
- Thread starter
- #202
Alright, again though, you are misreading the text you have repeatedly quoted. Regardless, discussion seems to have come to a halt, and I've already said everything I needed to say.
- 15,998
- 6,001
Again, mods should probably decide. Both sides should make a concise summarization of their arguments.
- 102
- 55
- Thread starter
- #204
I feel that everything has been plainly laid out, but if mods request a summarization, I will provide one.
- 5,667
- 4,895
Still agree with the op
- 167,862
- 76,484
@Dragonmasterxyz @DarkDragonMedeus
What do you think that we should do here? Or do you need help from other staff members?
What do you think that we should do here? Or do you need help from other staff members?
- 6,590
- 3,423
I believe Weekly still is going through the second game to see more statements/feats/evidence to his points ? Better wait for him then, to be fair
- 61,177
- 14,747
I am yes, I'm going to be posting them later as I'm at work right now
- 102
- 55
- Thread starter
- #210
I'll readdress Comicgyal's points directly, since I realize I may not have been specific enough (and he still isn't convinced).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comicgyal: Anyways starting off with the Twitter post, kamiya doesn’t really say “"both Witch Time and Light Speed are not about manipulating time, but rather speeding up the user." All Kamiya says is that both abilities are faster than time manipulation, meaning the two are well.. moving faster than time when using it. That doesn’t confirm OPs original point, all it really does is give them an even further speed feat? However in these Twitter responses, it’s fairly obvious Kamiya isn’t entirely into the conversation. Since when directly asked about the time manipulation part by another, he just gives this response which confirms nor denies anything. Though that’s just my take on the Twitter response, it’s Twitter anyways..
Automatic translations for certain languages are inaccurate, especially for more complex languages that are difficult to translate directly from English (different grammar rules, certain words don't translate directly, diction, etc.). I outsourced my translation to reddit, where two users gave me a near similar translation, "both Witch Time and Light Speed are not about manipulating time, but rather speeding up the user. If you do not trust either of these users, for whatever reason, I recommend finding another translation not used via software. Also, his second response to a different question doesn't discredit his previous statement either. And even if we want to cast aside his twitter responses, he has also said Witch Time is a speed boost in a professional interview, released 3 months after the game came out.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comicgyal: Now I’ve watched his documentary plenty of times, so I already knew what Op was referencing when they brought it up. However I believe there are some rules in place for author statements? Even if it is wog, if there’s enough lore in game to disregard it then it’s not true. It’s similar to how people will disregard kamiya calling Rodin the strongest character in the game, because in lore / gameplay he’s done nothing that supports it too much. This situation is very similar, except witch time has been regarded as a time slow numerous times in lore / gameplay.
The "interview" I was sourcing, was not from a documentary. This just proves you are not even bothering to read my points, or check the links I have provided. Kamiya says this here; the interview is from Bayonetta: The Official Guide (download link). The interview in question is at the end, and he even goes into detail how he "wanted a lightning fast system to defeat his enemies," and how it eventually turned into the current "slow-motion effect." And again, if you want to discredit WoG statements, we have in-game texts stating Witch Time is a speed boost, and not a time slow.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comicgyal: Starting off with Antonio’s own notebooks, it’s good to post the entire chapter in order to gain full context. As I said before, OP is right in thinking it boosts their normal attributes, however that chapter doesn’t debunk it being time manipulation. “Temporal control is not just simply being able to recognize this world, it also enables one to boost their physical abilities and move freely within that single moment.” This statement is proof enough that witch time is both time manipulation, and also the boosting of their regular attributes.
Again, as I said before, you seem to be misreading the source material. Witch Time is not Temporal Control and a speed boost. Witch Time is Temporal Control, and Temporal Control is the boost. Witch Time = Temporal Control = speed boost. Witch Time = speed boost. Let's go through the document line by line:
"As 'Overseers of History,' they possessed the ability to literally see everything in an instant, also known as Temporal Control. This technique sharpened all of the five senses, and pushed one’s emotional energy to its very limits. It is a world where a falling drop of water can become a crown, and a humming-bird slowly and elegantly flaps its wings."
Temporal Control is the ability "to literally see everything in an instant," "sharpen all of the five senses," and "a world where a falling drop of water can become a crown, and a humming-bird slowly and elegantly flaps its wings." It seems very explicit that Temporal Control is a boost in senses, that allows you to perceive the world faster (hence why everything appears slower).
"Temporal Control is not just simply being able to recognize this world, it also enables one to boost their physical abilities and move freely within that single moment."
Temporal Control also enables one to boost their physical abilities and move freely within that single moment. It is a boost in senses, and also enables you to boost your physical abilities to match your perception.
"While quite similar, the witches and sages each practiced this art differently, leading to different names for their respective techniques, Witch Time and Light Speed. Witch Time... It seems that the witches on this earth fell victim to our world’s passage of time and vanished into the abyss of eternity."
This technique (Temporal Control) is called Witch Time and Light Speed. Temporal Control is Witch Time and Light Speed. Again, Temporal Control sharpens your senses, and boosts your physical abilities. Not once is time manipulation mentioned, and it seems very clear (at least to me) what this document is saying.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comicgyal: It also enables them to boost their abilities, not just “Witch time gives them a physical boost” like the argument you’re making. You cannot make a concise witch time argument, while also ignoring the many in game inconsistencies. Much like weekly said, you can’t just “resist” someone speed boosting themselves, that makes no sense.
Reread the document, please. Temporal Control is the speed boost. Witch Time is Temporal Control. And yes, you cannot "resist" someone speeding up, which is why the angels are not "resisting anything," they are also speeding themselves up.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comicgyal: “Witch time.... it seems that the witches on this earth fell victim to our worlds passage of time and vanished into the abyss of eternity.” He is very clearly making a metaphor on witch time, an ability that manipulates time, and how the witches vanished from their passage of time due to their deaths. I read it plenty of times.
Again, you seem to be misreading the document. This sentence is not stating Witch Time is time control what so ever. Antonio brings this up because of the word "time," and how the witches faded from "the passage time." All he is stating is that the Witches died out, not referring to what Witch Time does. And even if we want to say this is a metaphor, the definition of that would be, "a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comicgyal: Antonio is very clearly acknowledging witch time as a time manipulating ability as well, so it’s not that good to reference it solely. In Antonio’s notebooks he briefly references the witches again, saying the crystal witch and sage were used to aid their control over time. As you all know gameplay wise, a lightning strike comes from the heavens once activated, and you have to dodge at the last second. It’s very clearly again, an ability used to manipulate time itself. How couldn’t it be? That is the exact reason they have the Eyes of the world, to be overseers of history and time. Not witches and sages that can move really fast.
Again, you are misreading the documents you claim to understand. It reads as, "According to ancient records, they were created to aid in the training of the “Art of Overseeing Time,” a skill only the two clans were capable of practicing, that also served as the key to locking something away from public view should the clans feel the need for secrecy. However, the exact details of this art are unknown."
"The Art of Overseeing Time." This is not saying "control over time." It is simply, "Art of Overseeing Time," not the "Art of Controlling Time." You acknowledge that the Lumen and Umbra are literally known as "Overseers of History" and "Overseers of Time" due to their role in possessing the "Eyes of the World." Again, this is never said to be time manipulation. Antonio writes upon this many other times:
"Working at the behest of the powers that be, and making use of their ancient magical arts, the witches watched over the passage of time within the human world."
"Several hundred years ago, the now vanished clans of the Umbra Witches and Lumen Sages stood as overseers of time immemorial, thriving from their remote European base known as Vigrid."
"As overseers of history, the Lumen Sages and Umbra Witches were both incredibly powerful, each fearing each other and strictly prohibiting inter-relations as a way to maintain the balance of power."
"The powers of the witch and sage were not common knowledge; although, as overseers of history, one could imagine that they must have had appropriately powerful abilities, making their ultimate destruction an even more ironic end."
"Along with their fellow overseers of history, the Lumen Sages, the Umbra Witches used their incredible power to repel any intrusion upon Vigrid."
"The Umbra Witches and Lumen Sages, each with respective control over dark and light, must have needed a land replete with this Spirit Energy to enable them to oversee history."
"There were two ‘Eyes of the World,’ one each controlled by the witches and the sages, which when used together were able to carry out their stated task of overseeing."
The opening narration, even refers to the clans as the "Overseers of History."
If this is still confusing to some, I will explain it in the next question.
And how is dodging a lightning bolt "very clearly an ability used to manipulate time?" ???
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comicgyal: As weekly posted, they do reference witch time as much more than a speed boost. “Unleash temporal witch powers.” What part of that sounds like a speed boost? She even uses the statues, which I again pointed out is used to aid their control over time. To say that witches don’t manipulate time.. is to deny entire plot points established in Bayonetta 2, and why the eyes of the world exist in the first place. The witches are described as overseeers of history and time, it’s very in your face about it.
"Unleash their temporal witch powers." We've established that these "Temporal Powers" (Temporal Control) are a speed boost from the document that explains the ability. And even if want to take the quote on it's own, temporal=/=time (keeping in mind all definitions.)
You acknowledge the title of "Overseers of History and Time." But again, this does not equate to "time control." The Eyes grant sight and knowledge (omniscience), not time control, which is why those who posses the Eyes are deemed "Overseers." You are misunderstanding the lore.
I'll break it down simply if you still do not understand. The Eyes grant the ability of sight and knowledge. Aesir gave the clans the Eyes of the World. The Umbra and Lumen became "Overseers of Time and History" due to these Eyes. From these Eyes, they learned the "Art of Overseeing Time": Temporal Control. Temporal Control is described as the "ability to literally see everything" (sight and knowledge). And again, is described as a physical boost. No where in any of this, is time manipulation or a time slow mentioned.
Also, the angels refer to Bayonetta as an "Overseer" (due to her possessing the Left Eye) and state that the Eyes were used to "oversee history." The Eyes are why they are called the Overseers, not due to Witch Time or Light Speed. The clans posses Temporal Control (Witch Time and Light Speed) because of the Eyes. And again, the Eyes grant sight and knowledge, not time control. You seem to be misunderstanding/misinterpreting the lore.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comicgyal: Going into Bayonetta 2, we have our very first direct mention of time manipulation. Madam Khepri, a goddess contracted to Rosa who is also able to control time itself. Witches gain their abilities from demons they’re contracted to, time is a very important factor in their power set. So much so, that a witch made the bracelet of time. Which enables a witch to control witch time at will, helping novice witches that weren’t able to grasp the concept very easily. Witch time effects the world around them, it couldn’t be as simple as a “speed boost” or else the intense training and discipline wouldn’t be needed.
This was one of the first points I addressed. Madama Khepri's file states that contracting with her will grant "an almost infinite knowledge of time and the secret technique to control it." This "knowledge of time" is never said to be Witch Time, it would be redundant for a Witch to contract with Khepri if Witch Time was actually time manipulation, and we already know that actual Time Travel exists in the Bayonetta universe (which could be what the file might be referring to).
Accessories such as the Bracelet of Time or Selene's Light also do not speak upon time control. Both descriptions just speak upon activating Witch Time. And Witch Time is not effecting the world around them, it is their "perceived world" that is effected: it is a boost in senses. And why wouldn't intense training and discipline be required for a "simple speed boost?" This is a non-argument.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comicgyal: In Bayonetta 1, the very first chapter gives us a good glimpse of how witch time works. In gameplay, when using witch time you can see that their actions are sped up, while the world around them slows down. However witch time is something that you can stack. Bayonetta activates witch time, slowing everything around her to a crawl, however she limited hers to the environment. Jeanne activates witch time, slowing down the angels around them and also the environment. It’s very obviously a time slow that can be increased.
Once more, this is in line with how a speed boost would look. They get faster, so everything else gets slower. And "stacking" Witch Time would just be them amping their speed again. Time is relative, so a speed boost and time slow would look/function the same; the user is just becoming faster than everything else in both cases.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comicgyal: I hope I can sway some of you? In all honesty, the way witch time is described by kamiya, then represented in lore is very inconsistent. However I believe that’s due to Kamiya being kept out of the loop a bit. The developers would often put things in the game without telling, or tell him about it last moment. You all can watch the document for yourselves, he says that a lot.
There are no in-lore inconsistencies. And again, you are not checking the links I have provided, since that documentary was not my source. And even if we want to discredit Kamiya's WoG, we have the above document describing Witch Time as a speed boost, and we have this info-prompt, which appears the first time you activate Witch Time via statue.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again, Witch Time is never referred to be time manipulation within either of the games, even in tutorials. All your points are based off misunderstanding the lore, misreading text files, or misunderstanding how certain abilities work.
I'll be awaiting Weekly's "proof."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comicgyal: Anyways starting off with the Twitter post, kamiya doesn’t really say “"both Witch Time and Light Speed are not about manipulating time, but rather speeding up the user." All Kamiya says is that both abilities are faster than time manipulation, meaning the two are well.. moving faster than time when using it. That doesn’t confirm OPs original point, all it really does is give them an even further speed feat? However in these Twitter responses, it’s fairly obvious Kamiya isn’t entirely into the conversation. Since when directly asked about the time manipulation part by another, he just gives this response which confirms nor denies anything. Though that’s just my take on the Twitter response, it’s Twitter anyways..
Automatic translations for certain languages are inaccurate, especially for more complex languages that are difficult to translate directly from English (different grammar rules, certain words don't translate directly, diction, etc.). I outsourced my translation to reddit, where two users gave me a near similar translation, "both Witch Time and Light Speed are not about manipulating time, but rather speeding up the user. If you do not trust either of these users, for whatever reason, I recommend finding another translation not used via software. Also, his second response to a different question doesn't discredit his previous statement either. And even if we want to cast aside his twitter responses, he has also said Witch Time is a speed boost in a professional interview, released 3 months after the game came out.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comicgyal: Now I’ve watched his documentary plenty of times, so I already knew what Op was referencing when they brought it up. However I believe there are some rules in place for author statements? Even if it is wog, if there’s enough lore in game to disregard it then it’s not true. It’s similar to how people will disregard kamiya calling Rodin the strongest character in the game, because in lore / gameplay he’s done nothing that supports it too much. This situation is very similar, except witch time has been regarded as a time slow numerous times in lore / gameplay.
The "interview" I was sourcing, was not from a documentary. This just proves you are not even bothering to read my points, or check the links I have provided. Kamiya says this here; the interview is from Bayonetta: The Official Guide (download link). The interview in question is at the end, and he even goes into detail how he "wanted a lightning fast system to defeat his enemies," and how it eventually turned into the current "slow-motion effect." And again, if you want to discredit WoG statements, we have in-game texts stating Witch Time is a speed boost, and not a time slow.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comicgyal: Starting off with Antonio’s own notebooks, it’s good to post the entire chapter in order to gain full context. As I said before, OP is right in thinking it boosts their normal attributes, however that chapter doesn’t debunk it being time manipulation. “Temporal control is not just simply being able to recognize this world, it also enables one to boost their physical abilities and move freely within that single moment.” This statement is proof enough that witch time is both time manipulation, and also the boosting of their regular attributes.
Again, as I said before, you seem to be misreading the source material. Witch Time is not Temporal Control and a speed boost. Witch Time is Temporal Control, and Temporal Control is the boost. Witch Time = Temporal Control = speed boost. Witch Time = speed boost. Let's go through the document line by line:
"As 'Overseers of History,' they possessed the ability to literally see everything in an instant, also known as Temporal Control. This technique sharpened all of the five senses, and pushed one’s emotional energy to its very limits. It is a world where a falling drop of water can become a crown, and a humming-bird slowly and elegantly flaps its wings."
Temporal Control is the ability "to literally see everything in an instant," "sharpen all of the five senses," and "a world where a falling drop of water can become a crown, and a humming-bird slowly and elegantly flaps its wings." It seems very explicit that Temporal Control is a boost in senses, that allows you to perceive the world faster (hence why everything appears slower).
"Temporal Control is not just simply being able to recognize this world, it also enables one to boost their physical abilities and move freely within that single moment."
Temporal Control also enables one to boost their physical abilities and move freely within that single moment. It is a boost in senses, and also enables you to boost your physical abilities to match your perception.
"While quite similar, the witches and sages each practiced this art differently, leading to different names for their respective techniques, Witch Time and Light Speed. Witch Time... It seems that the witches on this earth fell victim to our world’s passage of time and vanished into the abyss of eternity."
This technique (Temporal Control) is called Witch Time and Light Speed. Temporal Control is Witch Time and Light Speed. Again, Temporal Control sharpens your senses, and boosts your physical abilities. Not once is time manipulation mentioned, and it seems very clear (at least to me) what this document is saying.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comicgyal: It also enables them to boost their abilities, not just “Witch time gives them a physical boost” like the argument you’re making. You cannot make a concise witch time argument, while also ignoring the many in game inconsistencies. Much like weekly said, you can’t just “resist” someone speed boosting themselves, that makes no sense.
Reread the document, please. Temporal Control is the speed boost. Witch Time is Temporal Control. And yes, you cannot "resist" someone speeding up, which is why the angels are not "resisting anything," they are also speeding themselves up.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comicgyal: “Witch time.... it seems that the witches on this earth fell victim to our worlds passage of time and vanished into the abyss of eternity.” He is very clearly making a metaphor on witch time, an ability that manipulates time, and how the witches vanished from their passage of time due to their deaths. I read it plenty of times.
Again, you seem to be misreading the document. This sentence is not stating Witch Time is time control what so ever. Antonio brings this up because of the word "time," and how the witches faded from "the passage time." All he is stating is that the Witches died out, not referring to what Witch Time does. And even if we want to say this is a metaphor, the definition of that would be, "a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comicgyal: Antonio is very clearly acknowledging witch time as a time manipulating ability as well, so it’s not that good to reference it solely. In Antonio’s notebooks he briefly references the witches again, saying the crystal witch and sage were used to aid their control over time. As you all know gameplay wise, a lightning strike comes from the heavens once activated, and you have to dodge at the last second. It’s very clearly again, an ability used to manipulate time itself. How couldn’t it be? That is the exact reason they have the Eyes of the world, to be overseers of history and time. Not witches and sages that can move really fast.
Again, you are misreading the documents you claim to understand. It reads as, "According to ancient records, they were created to aid in the training of the “Art of Overseeing Time,” a skill only the two clans were capable of practicing, that also served as the key to locking something away from public view should the clans feel the need for secrecy. However, the exact details of this art are unknown."
"The Art of Overseeing Time." This is not saying "control over time." It is simply, "Art of Overseeing Time," not the "Art of Controlling Time." You acknowledge that the Lumen and Umbra are literally known as "Overseers of History" and "Overseers of Time" due to their role in possessing the "Eyes of the World." Again, this is never said to be time manipulation. Antonio writes upon this many other times:
"Working at the behest of the powers that be, and making use of their ancient magical arts, the witches watched over the passage of time within the human world."
"Several hundred years ago, the now vanished clans of the Umbra Witches and Lumen Sages stood as overseers of time immemorial, thriving from their remote European base known as Vigrid."
"As overseers of history, the Lumen Sages and Umbra Witches were both incredibly powerful, each fearing each other and strictly prohibiting inter-relations as a way to maintain the balance of power."
"The powers of the witch and sage were not common knowledge; although, as overseers of history, one could imagine that they must have had appropriately powerful abilities, making their ultimate destruction an even more ironic end."
"Along with their fellow overseers of history, the Lumen Sages, the Umbra Witches used their incredible power to repel any intrusion upon Vigrid."
"The Umbra Witches and Lumen Sages, each with respective control over dark and light, must have needed a land replete with this Spirit Energy to enable them to oversee history."
"There were two ‘Eyes of the World,’ one each controlled by the witches and the sages, which when used together were able to carry out their stated task of overseeing."
The opening narration, even refers to the clans as the "Overseers of History."
If this is still confusing to some, I will explain it in the next question.
And how is dodging a lightning bolt "very clearly an ability used to manipulate time?" ???
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comicgyal: As weekly posted, they do reference witch time as much more than a speed boost. “Unleash temporal witch powers.” What part of that sounds like a speed boost? She even uses the statues, which I again pointed out is used to aid their control over time. To say that witches don’t manipulate time.. is to deny entire plot points established in Bayonetta 2, and why the eyes of the world exist in the first place. The witches are described as overseeers of history and time, it’s very in your face about it.
"Unleash their temporal witch powers." We've established that these "Temporal Powers" (Temporal Control) are a speed boost from the document that explains the ability. And even if want to take the quote on it's own, temporal=/=time (keeping in mind all definitions.)
You acknowledge the title of "Overseers of History and Time." But again, this does not equate to "time control." The Eyes grant sight and knowledge (omniscience), not time control, which is why those who posses the Eyes are deemed "Overseers." You are misunderstanding the lore.
I'll break it down simply if you still do not understand. The Eyes grant the ability of sight and knowledge. Aesir gave the clans the Eyes of the World. The Umbra and Lumen became "Overseers of Time and History" due to these Eyes. From these Eyes, they learned the "Art of Overseeing Time": Temporal Control. Temporal Control is described as the "ability to literally see everything" (sight and knowledge). And again, is described as a physical boost. No where in any of this, is time manipulation or a time slow mentioned.
Also, the angels refer to Bayonetta as an "Overseer" (due to her possessing the Left Eye) and state that the Eyes were used to "oversee history." The Eyes are why they are called the Overseers, not due to Witch Time or Light Speed. The clans posses Temporal Control (Witch Time and Light Speed) because of the Eyes. And again, the Eyes grant sight and knowledge, not time control. You seem to be misunderstanding/misinterpreting the lore.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comicgyal: Going into Bayonetta 2, we have our very first direct mention of time manipulation. Madam Khepri, a goddess contracted to Rosa who is also able to control time itself. Witches gain their abilities from demons they’re contracted to, time is a very important factor in their power set. So much so, that a witch made the bracelet of time. Which enables a witch to control witch time at will, helping novice witches that weren’t able to grasp the concept very easily. Witch time effects the world around them, it couldn’t be as simple as a “speed boost” or else the intense training and discipline wouldn’t be needed.
This was one of the first points I addressed. Madama Khepri's file states that contracting with her will grant "an almost infinite knowledge of time and the secret technique to control it." This "knowledge of time" is never said to be Witch Time, it would be redundant for a Witch to contract with Khepri if Witch Time was actually time manipulation, and we already know that actual Time Travel exists in the Bayonetta universe (which could be what the file might be referring to).
Accessories such as the Bracelet of Time or Selene's Light also do not speak upon time control. Both descriptions just speak upon activating Witch Time. And Witch Time is not effecting the world around them, it is their "perceived world" that is effected: it is a boost in senses. And why wouldn't intense training and discipline be required for a "simple speed boost?" This is a non-argument.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comicgyal: In Bayonetta 1, the very first chapter gives us a good glimpse of how witch time works. In gameplay, when using witch time you can see that their actions are sped up, while the world around them slows down. However witch time is something that you can stack. Bayonetta activates witch time, slowing everything around her to a crawl, however she limited hers to the environment. Jeanne activates witch time, slowing down the angels around them and also the environment. It’s very obviously a time slow that can be increased.
Once more, this is in line with how a speed boost would look. They get faster, so everything else gets slower. And "stacking" Witch Time would just be them amping their speed again. Time is relative, so a speed boost and time slow would look/function the same; the user is just becoming faster than everything else in both cases.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comicgyal: I hope I can sway some of you? In all honesty, the way witch time is described by kamiya, then represented in lore is very inconsistent. However I believe that’s due to Kamiya being kept out of the loop a bit. The developers would often put things in the game without telling, or tell him about it last moment. You all can watch the document for yourselves, he says that a lot.
There are no in-lore inconsistencies. And again, you are not checking the links I have provided, since that documentary was not my source. And even if we want to discredit Kamiya's WoG, we have the above document describing Witch Time as a speed boost, and we have this info-prompt, which appears the first time you activate Witch Time via statue.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again, Witch Time is never referred to be time manipulation within either of the games, even in tutorials. All your points are based off misunderstanding the lore, misreading text files, or misunderstanding how certain abilities work.
I'll be awaiting Weekly's "proof."
Last edited:
- 102
- 55
- Thread starter
- #211
One last clarification for Comicgyal (since I accidently skipped over one of his points above, and I want to be as concise as possible):
"Bayonetta activates witch time, slowing everything around her to a crawl, however she limited hers to the environment."
The scene in question, where the angels are moving "in Witch Time," does not mean Bayonetta is slowing only her environment (or that WT is a time slow). Bayonetta has simply increased her speed, which is why the environment is slow. The angels are moving just as fast as her (matching her speed), which is why they appear "unaffected." When Bayonetta and Jeanne amp their speed further, they again are increasing the speed difference between themselves and everything else, and therefore "slowing" the angels.
And we know that angels can move fast enough to compete with Bayonetta in Witch Time, because they can also "amp" themselves, nullifying the speed difference.
Regardless, as said above, time is relative - speed boost and time slow would look/function the same - which is why we cannot use scenes of Witch Time to determine which is the case.
"Bayonetta activates witch time, slowing everything around her to a crawl, however she limited hers to the environment."
The scene in question, where the angels are moving "in Witch Time," does not mean Bayonetta is slowing only her environment (or that WT is a time slow). Bayonetta has simply increased her speed, which is why the environment is slow. The angels are moving just as fast as her (matching her speed), which is why they appear "unaffected." When Bayonetta and Jeanne amp their speed further, they again are increasing the speed difference between themselves and everything else, and therefore "slowing" the angels.
And we know that angels can move fast enough to compete with Bayonetta in Witch Time, because they can also "amp" themselves, nullifying the speed difference.
Regardless, as said above, time is relative - speed boost and time slow would look/function the same - which is why we cannot use scenes of Witch Time to determine which is the case.
Last edited:
- 10,352
- 11,902
It happens sometimes ovo
- 31,462
- 34,326
Yeah, I'm waiting for Weekly or Dragon to say which they prefer.
- 102
- 55
- Thread starter
- #215
Since the phrase, "time is relative," is still not clicking with some users, once Weekly posts his "evidence" from the second game, I'll go through it line by line as I did with Comicgyal, and readdress any points he made about the first game as well.
- 42,775
- 37,013
Sigh...
Word of God that admits themselves that they are not always correct isn't good Word of God and it also contradicts the games pretty hard, this is like if I used Word of God in my sandbox page for the Devourer of Gods stating DoG was 3.5 times the speed of light when he kept up with a being with 4-A size in lore. Tell me again, Which one would be more reliable?
There are several feats Weekly is stating that make sense to me, if it was a pure speed amp then it wouldn't make sense for Jubileus to be stupidly faster then Bayonetta, especially since they kept up with eachother without Witch TIME being used.
"Time is Realative" doesn't really apply here, why would two umbra witches with the exact same basically everything percieve time differently? Answer me that.
Word of God that admits themselves that they are not always correct isn't good Word of God and it also contradicts the games pretty hard, this is like if I used Word of God in my sandbox page for the Devourer of Gods stating DoG was 3.5 times the speed of light when he kept up with a being with 4-A size in lore. Tell me again, Which one would be more reliable?
There are several feats Weekly is stating that make sense to me, if it was a pure speed amp then it wouldn't make sense for Jubileus to be stupidly faster then Bayonetta, especially since they kept up with eachother without Witch TIME being used.
"Time is Realative" doesn't really apply here, why would two umbra witches with the exact same basically everything percieve time differently? Answer me that.
- 42,775
- 37,013
If I didn't make this clear I am VERY against this downgrade, and another thread would pop up to make it time manip again pretty quickly, while speed amp and time manip is possible I don't think its just a speed amp at all.
- 42,775
- 37,013
Also this same sort of thing could be used on a lot of time stops and time slows across the wiki
- 102
- 55
- Thread starter
- #221
RoyGundam: If a character launches an attack under the effect of an ability that could be time stop and then the object immediately slows down or stops till the ability is lifted - it is consistent with that ability being a time stop. This is exactly what Dio did in JoJo Part 3
Again, a time slow/stop, and superspeed, would look and function identically. If a character launches an attack while they are under super speed, and then the object immediately slows down or stops till the ability is lifted - it is consistent with that ability being super speed. This is exactly what Quicksilver does with various objects in this scene.
(To explain why this occurs: the objects stop/slow and lose their momentum suddenly due to Quicksilver only boosting them by his superspeed for a brief moment, however they still posses a higher velocity than their original starting point, hence why they continue moving once Quicksilver returns to "normal speed." The same thing is occurring here with Bayonetta, and these rocks.)
A time slow/stop and superspeed, function exactly the same.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RoyGundam: Jeanne accelerating the truck by canceling her witch time is also consistent with the ability being time slow/stop
It is never said or shown whose Witch Time is being "broken," regardless, there is a consistent interpretation/explanation for Witch Time being a speed boost in this scene.
It's not Jeanne releasing a "Witch Time slow," but actually Bayonetta losing her Witch Time speed boost. Since Temporal Control requires "a sound grasp of the mind," and "pushes one's emotional energy to it's very limits," Bayonetta was so overwhelmed/distracted/dumbfounded in that one moment that it broke her concentration - breaking WT. Remember, this would the first time in her memory that she has seen another Umbra Witch - and she's staring down the barrel of her gun - it's probably a very startling moment for her.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DaReaperMan: Word of God that admits themselves that they are not always correct isn't good Word of God and it also contradicts the games pretty hard, this is like if I used Word of God in my sandbox page for the Devourer of Gods stating DoG was 3.5 times the speed of light when he kept up with a being with 4-A size in lore. Tell me again, Which one would be more reliable?
And as I said above, even if you want to discredit WoG, the game itself tells us that Witch Time is a speed boost. Once in a file describing how the ability works. And once in an info-prompt. The game literally tells you: Witch Time is a speed boost. It does not get anymore clear than that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DaReaperMan: There are several feats Weekly is stating that make sense to me, if it was a pure speed amp then it wouldn't make sense for Jubileus to be stupidly faster then Bayonetta, especially since they kept up with eachother without Witch TIME being used.
Please think about the scenes Weekly posted harder. Also, I do not understand your statement, "if it was a pure speed amp then it wouldn't make sense for Jubileus to be stupidly faster then Bayonetta, especially since they kept up with eachother without Witch TIME being used."
Jubileus isn't faster than Bayonetta in gameplay at all. I'm confused on what you're trying to say here. Did you mean Jeanne? If you did, again, Jeanne isn't faster than Bayonetta in gameplay or cutscenes either. Please restate your point, since I do not understand what you are trying to argue here.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DaReaperMan: "Time is Realative" doesn't really apply here, why would two umbra witches with the exact same basically everything percieve time differently? Answer me that.
When you have super speed, you can move very fast. The only way you could be able to move properly very fast, is if your perception matched your speed. You are faster than everything else, so therefore, you perceive time differently.
This is even discussed in the document explaining the ability. Temporal Control allows the Umbra to "literally see everything in an instant," "sharpen all of the five senses," and "a world where a falling drop of water can become a crown, and a humming-bird slowly and elegantly flaps its wings." Temporal Control is a boost in senses.
The document continues to state, that" Temporal Control is not just simply being able to recognize this world, it also enables one to boost their physical abilities and move freely within that single moment." Temporal Control is a boost in senses (that heightens/increases you perception, therefore making the world appear slower), and a physical boost (which allows you to match your perception, granting super speed).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I beg people to actually read my points, since everything I am stating now, are things I have already said.
Again, a time slow/stop, and superspeed, would look and function identically. If a character launches an attack while they are under super speed, and then the object immediately slows down or stops till the ability is lifted - it is consistent with that ability being super speed. This is exactly what Quicksilver does with various objects in this scene.
(To explain why this occurs: the objects stop/slow and lose their momentum suddenly due to Quicksilver only boosting them by his superspeed for a brief moment, however they still posses a higher velocity than their original starting point, hence why they continue moving once Quicksilver returns to "normal speed." The same thing is occurring here with Bayonetta, and these rocks.)
A time slow/stop and superspeed, function exactly the same.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RoyGundam: Jeanne accelerating the truck by canceling her witch time is also consistent with the ability being time slow/stop
It is never said or shown whose Witch Time is being "broken," regardless, there is a consistent interpretation/explanation for Witch Time being a speed boost in this scene.
It's not Jeanne releasing a "Witch Time slow," but actually Bayonetta losing her Witch Time speed boost. Since Temporal Control requires "a sound grasp of the mind," and "pushes one's emotional energy to it's very limits," Bayonetta was so overwhelmed/distracted/dumbfounded in that one moment that it broke her concentration - breaking WT. Remember, this would the first time in her memory that she has seen another Umbra Witch - and she's staring down the barrel of her gun - it's probably a very startling moment for her.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DaReaperMan: Word of God that admits themselves that they are not always correct isn't good Word of God and it also contradicts the games pretty hard, this is like if I used Word of God in my sandbox page for the Devourer of Gods stating DoG was 3.5 times the speed of light when he kept up with a being with 4-A size in lore. Tell me again, Which one would be more reliable?
And as I said above, even if you want to discredit WoG, the game itself tells us that Witch Time is a speed boost. Once in a file describing how the ability works. And once in an info-prompt. The game literally tells you: Witch Time is a speed boost. It does not get anymore clear than that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DaReaperMan: There are several feats Weekly is stating that make sense to me, if it was a pure speed amp then it wouldn't make sense for Jubileus to be stupidly faster then Bayonetta, especially since they kept up with eachother without Witch TIME being used.
Please think about the scenes Weekly posted harder. Also, I do not understand your statement, "if it was a pure speed amp then it wouldn't make sense for Jubileus to be stupidly faster then Bayonetta, especially since they kept up with eachother without Witch TIME being used."
Jubileus isn't faster than Bayonetta in gameplay at all. I'm confused on what you're trying to say here. Did you mean Jeanne? If you did, again, Jeanne isn't faster than Bayonetta in gameplay or cutscenes either. Please restate your point, since I do not understand what you are trying to argue here.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DaReaperMan: "Time is Realative" doesn't really apply here, why would two umbra witches with the exact same basically everything percieve time differently? Answer me that.
When you have super speed, you can move very fast. The only way you could be able to move properly very fast, is if your perception matched your speed. You are faster than everything else, so therefore, you perceive time differently.
This is even discussed in the document explaining the ability. Temporal Control allows the Umbra to "literally see everything in an instant," "sharpen all of the five senses," and "a world where a falling drop of water can become a crown, and a humming-bird slowly and elegantly flaps its wings." Temporal Control is a boost in senses.
The document continues to state, that" Temporal Control is not just simply being able to recognize this world, it also enables one to boost their physical abilities and move freely within that single moment." Temporal Control is a boost in senses (that heightens/increases you perception, therefore making the world appear slower), and a physical boost (which allows you to match your perception, granting super speed).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I beg people to actually read my points, since everything I am stating now, are things I have already said.
- 3,303
- 2,697
To be fair, we don't know what Quicksilver's power is in the live action movies
- 102
- 55
- Thread starter
- #223
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
- 42,775
- 37,013
All right time to upgrade Overlord, Jojo's bizarre adventure and numerous other verses speeds because time slow/stop and super speed are the same effect... allow me to laugh my ass off. Why would Bayonetta, a 3-A lose focus because a ******* 9-B Truck is speeding towards her? She could literally stand there and at most get flung into the air.
Now, there would need to be another CRT made here... to downgrade Bayonetta and Jeanne's speed to some bullshit like subsonic by your logic, oh right...(yes that's what I'm getting at with Jubileus)
Also 5 statements(in ONE game) vs 1 statement and a source whos author admits is not always right, i analyzed the scenes, clear time nonsense going on, you are arguing with a brick wall of stubbornness who will only budge if they see evidence they can get behind, if there are more then 5 statements going against witch time being time manip that aren't word of God(this includes topics of magic) i will accept it.
Now, there would need to be another CRT made here... to downgrade Bayonetta and Jeanne's speed to some bullshit like subsonic by your logic, oh right...(yes that's what I'm getting at with Jubileus)
Also 5 statements(in ONE game) vs 1 statement and a source whos author admits is not always right, i analyzed the scenes, clear time nonsense going on, you are arguing with a brick wall of stubbornness who will only budge if they see evidence they can get behind, if there are more then 5 statements going against witch time being time manip that aren't word of God(this includes topics of magic) i will accept it.
- 3,303
- 2,697
They already had a brief fight with both using Witch time. To say that she only lost it at that exact moment, that the truck came flying just then and that Jeanne read that Bayonetta had lost Witch Time immediately requires more assumptions to be valid and can be dismissed via Occam's razor
- 15,998
- 6,001
Stop this. You are trying far to hard to push this downgrade as objective, irrefutable, and absolute. Everyone has their own interpretation, that’s exactly what this site is. Reading something 100 times over will not suddenly make your interpretation more valid than the others. Weekly has his own evidence, you have yours.
- 3,303
- 2,697
It could very well be time slow if Quicksilver's feats are more consistent with that interpretation
If a speedster imparts hypersonic speeds to an object for example, it can't immediately slow down to a much lower speed because drag forces aren't that strong ever. It is however consistent with time manipulation
Last edited:
- 3,461
- 1,724
calm down. Lets not got heated
- 42,775
- 37,013
I myself enjoy arguing so I'm not exactly heated right now lol
- 42,775
- 37,013
Also this, all of this.
- 15,998
- 6,001
I’m not mad, just shoving evidence in people’s face won’t make them change their mind. That’s all I have to say on this, I’m still neutral.
- 3,303
- 2,697
I hope you understand that not everyone finds your points to be exactly as conclusive as you do ... Which is the point of a debate
- 61,177
- 14,747
Sorry its taking longer than expected, i kinda passed out whn i got home. Am working on the econd half of th scans now
- 42,775
- 37,013
Take as much time as you need weekly
- 102
- 55
- Thread starter
- #236
DaReaperMan, I'm going to ask you to re-read my statements. Slowly. I want you to read them until you think you understand them fully. And then read them again. Please, I'm begging you. Witch Time is outright stated to be a speed boost. It is stated. The game states: Witch Time is a speed boost. Jojo's time stops are time stops because they are explicitly said to be time stops. Witch Time is a speed boost, because it is explicitly said to be a speed boost.
Bayonetta loses focus because of Jeanne, due to the fact that this is the first time she has seen another Umbra Witch in 20 years, and she is staring down the barrel of her gun. Witch Time is said to require a "sound state of mind," and "pushes one's emotional energy to it's very limits." What in God's name, does a 3-A character, have to do with a 9-B Truck. What are you talking about. She doesn't lose Witch Time because of a stat difference with a truck, she loses Witch Time because she is becomes overwhelmed and loses her focus.
And yes, I will only budge if there is evidence that Witch Time is a time slow, which there is none. There is no concrete evidence that Witch Time is a time slow. There is concrete evidence that Witch Time is a speed boost. I have provided this evidence, time and time again. I have explained the logistics of a super speed, and why it looks and functions identically to a time slow, time and time again. We cannot accurately determine if Witch Time is time slow or speed boost based off visuals alone, since they function the same.
And I do not understand the push against WoG. Even if we discredit Kamiya's twitter response, he has said Witch Time is a speed boost in a professional interview, 3 months after the game was released. And isn't Bayonetta literally scaled to Universal, because Kamiya said Jubileus was? On twitter nonetheless?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And Milly, this isn't up to "interpretation." This is not about analyzing feats, or scaling characters. This is about taking the lore, in-game texts explaining abilities, and simply reading them. I am simply reading the in-game material. It tells us, that Witch Time is a speed boost. I do not understand why this is difficult to grasp. People's misconception in what they think Witch Time is clouding their judgement. All counterpoints, I have addressed, and explained. Every single "lore" counterpoint has been wrong - users have either been misreading the text, or misunderstanding the lore. I explain this, very carefully, and even link the source documents, so others can read them as well. Every single "in-game" counterpoint, cannot be used, because again, a time slow and speed boost look and function the same.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roy, Quicksilver has superspeed, don't try to ignore canon to fit your argument here. Quicksilver has super speed. Other speedsters, and fast characters demonstrate similar things that Quicksilver does. All speedsters break physics. True speedsters cannot exist. Speedsters innately have secondary powers that allow them exist, function, and interact with their world during their superspeed (otherwise they would vaporize everything they move past, and even the smallest of objects would become lethal upon touch, i.e. raindrops becoming lethal due to how fast they are running into them, etc.). Likewise, true "time stops/slows" cannot exist. Time manipulators also innately have secondary powers that allow them to exist, function, and interact with their world during their time slows/stops (otherwise they wouldn't even be able to move since their atoms would be frozen/slowed as well, and if they could move, it would still be impossible due to the air molecules in front of them being unable to, and again even if they could, they would suffocate due to the air becoming a vacuum, they would also be unable to see if it was a timestop, and would be unable to interact with it any objects due to them being frozen in time).
When it comes to these physics/reality breaking powers, they do not make sense.
"If a speedster imparts hypersonic speeds to an object for example, it can't immediately slow down to a much lower speed because drag forces aren't that strong ever. It is however consistent with time manipulation."
Yes, this is true 100%, imparting something with hypersonic speeds wouldn't cause it to immediately slow down. Likewise, in a time slow, imparting something with movement wouldn't cause it to move fast at all.
If there was a time slow, and someone tried to throw a baseball, the baseball wouldn't come out of their hand fast or at relative rate to them. As soon as they let go of the ball, it would move in slow motion. The only reason the baseball would be able to move fast after they threw it, is if the object became relative to their time when they touched it, and retained some relative rate after they threw it. In a "true time stop or slow," these knives wouldn't move fast at all, they would simply stop immediately when they left DIO's hand. And you can say, "all timestops/timeslows operate under similar rules in fiction, so true physics not apply." Yes, that is true, and you can also say, "all speedsters operate under similar rules in fiction, so true physics not apply."
When Quicksilver or Bayonetta touch/interact with certain objects, those objects briefly become relative to them, and move faster - they then lose their "relative speed," and return to their own "respective speed," which is why they appear to stop/slow. Like wise, when DIO touches/interacts with certain objects, those objects briefly become relative to him, and therefore are able to move briefly in his stopped time. The object flies for a moment, and then becomes relative to it's own time once more. And all objects in these scenes, still retain their momentum, since they are still moving - which is why they still fly after the "speedboost," or "time slow/stop" is released.
The best way to put it would be like this:
Time manipulators can make objects they interact with relative to their time. Time slowers/stoppers manipulative time.
Speedsters can make objects they interact with relative to their speed. Speedsters manipulate speed.
Fundamentally, both of these fictional powers, have extremely similar innate "secondary powers," which is why they act they way they do in fiction, and is part of the reason why they behave extremely similarly. The visual similarities between a time slow and speed boost are obvious, the "physics" may be less so, because they literally do not make sense in either case, without "secondary powers."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"They already had a brief fight with both using Witch time. To say that she only lost it at that exact moment, that the truck came flying just then and that Jeanne read that Bayonetta had lost Witch Time immediately requires more assumptions to be valid and can be dismissed via Occam's razor"
Jeanne and Bayonetta were not fighting each other when they were using WT, they were fighting a group of angels. She loses WT in that moment, because Jeanne turned to face her, and points a gun at her head. Again, this is the first time Bayonetta has seen another Umbra Witch in her entire memory - this is a very intense moment for her. Jeanne "reads" that Bayonetta lost Witch Time, because Bayonetta is now obviously much slower than her. Jeanne then escapes, which is why she "vanishes" almost instantly after the truck passes - she moves faster than Bayonetta can see.
And please, use the same logic and analyze your own argument, with your "Occam's razor." If Witch Time was a time slow, and Jeanne did release it, why wouldn't Bayonetta just enable it again immediately? And if Jeanne released Witch Time, why would it stop Bayonetta's Witch Time at all? Jeanne would just be changing her "time" to her "environment's time." The only way for Jeanne releasing her Witch Time, to also release Bayonetta's WT, is that there is only one "plane" of Witch Time. Bayonetta activates WT in the beginning of the fight, and then you claim Jeanne removes it; again, this would suggest that there is only one plane of WT. If this was the case, are you telling me Jeanne didn't use Witch Time for over 20 years? Because if she did, Bayonetta would surely have recognized time slowing down during random moments. And again, if WT was a time slow, then during the era of the clans, whenever a single Witch or Lumen used Temporal Control, time slowed down for everyone? And not instead, Witch Time just increasing their own "time" against their "environment's time" (superspeed)?
The only way it would be possible for Jeanne to drop her Witch Time, and have it also drop for Bayonetta, is if Witch Time was universal for all Witches - when one Witch uses it, another Witch experiences it. So again, you're telling me Jeanne never uses Witch Time over 20 years, or over the course of the entire game, because time never slows down randomly. And if Witch Time was a time slow, we would know that it's range would be extremely high, just based off various scenes in the game. Every time Bayonetta uses Witch Time in this fight, the flying rocks surronding them slow down. And in this other fight, whenever Bayonetta uses Witch Time, the angels in the far distance slow down. Again, another scene, where this supposed time slow is slowing things everywhere. And once more, in this scene. Pay attention to the sky/clouds in the background, the clouds are moving extremely quickly, yet when Bayonetta uses Witch Time, they slow to a halt.
What is the range of Witch Time if it is a time slow? Is it a city wide slow? Wouldn't people outside the range of Witch Time notice then? Since it would be obvious that some people would be moving slower than others once you reach the max range of this ability. Is Witch Time a global slow then? Wouldn't this screw with the planetary movement, and be devastating to Earth's natural rotation and oceans? Is Witch Time a solar system slow? Wouldn't people recognize the consolations and stars moving at irregular rates? Or is Witch Time a universal slow? Bayonetta can slow down the entire universe? And if we say Bayonetta can simply change the range of her time slow, why does she slow everything in all those above scenes regardless? Wouldn't it just make more sense to say that Bayonetta is just moving faster, and not slowing down everything?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And if Witch Time was a time slow, then why does Bayonetta produce afterimages in it? Wouldn't this also point towards it being a speed boost? I didn't bring this up earlier, since I didn't think it was relevant (they are purple afterimages, very well could just be magic). But again, why would devs portray a time slow with afterimages? Wouldn't it also be "Occam's razor" to try and reason that these "afterimages" just appear because of magic in a time slow, instead of just simply being afterimages?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At this point, I genuinely do not know what to say. People are arguing points, and aren't putting the same critical thought if their logic was argued against their statements. Again, this isn't really up to "interpretation," when the game is explicit in describing what Witch Time is. Witch Time is never said to be time manipulation by any characters. Witch Time is never explicitly shown to be time manipulation. Witch Time is never said to be time manipulation even in tutorials. Witch Time is referred to as a "speed-boosting ability" by reputable, in-game texts, an-info prompt, and multiple WoG statements: a recent twitter post, and an interview 3 months after the game was released.
Bayonetta loses focus because of Jeanne, due to the fact that this is the first time she has seen another Umbra Witch in 20 years, and she is staring down the barrel of her gun. Witch Time is said to require a "sound state of mind," and "pushes one's emotional energy to it's very limits." What in God's name, does a 3-A character, have to do with a 9-B Truck. What are you talking about. She doesn't lose Witch Time because of a stat difference with a truck, she loses Witch Time because she is becomes overwhelmed and loses her focus.
And yes, I will only budge if there is evidence that Witch Time is a time slow, which there is none. There is no concrete evidence that Witch Time is a time slow. There is concrete evidence that Witch Time is a speed boost. I have provided this evidence, time and time again. I have explained the logistics of a super speed, and why it looks and functions identically to a time slow, time and time again. We cannot accurately determine if Witch Time is time slow or speed boost based off visuals alone, since they function the same.
And I do not understand the push against WoG. Even if we discredit Kamiya's twitter response, he has said Witch Time is a speed boost in a professional interview, 3 months after the game was released. And isn't Bayonetta literally scaled to Universal, because Kamiya said Jubileus was? On twitter nonetheless?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And Milly, this isn't up to "interpretation." This is not about analyzing feats, or scaling characters. This is about taking the lore, in-game texts explaining abilities, and simply reading them. I am simply reading the in-game material. It tells us, that Witch Time is a speed boost. I do not understand why this is difficult to grasp. People's misconception in what they think Witch Time is clouding their judgement. All counterpoints, I have addressed, and explained. Every single "lore" counterpoint has been wrong - users have either been misreading the text, or misunderstanding the lore. I explain this, very carefully, and even link the source documents, so others can read them as well. Every single "in-game" counterpoint, cannot be used, because again, a time slow and speed boost look and function the same.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roy, Quicksilver has superspeed, don't try to ignore canon to fit your argument here. Quicksilver has super speed. Other speedsters, and fast characters demonstrate similar things that Quicksilver does. All speedsters break physics. True speedsters cannot exist. Speedsters innately have secondary powers that allow them exist, function, and interact with their world during their superspeed (otherwise they would vaporize everything they move past, and even the smallest of objects would become lethal upon touch, i.e. raindrops becoming lethal due to how fast they are running into them, etc.). Likewise, true "time stops/slows" cannot exist. Time manipulators also innately have secondary powers that allow them to exist, function, and interact with their world during their time slows/stops (otherwise they wouldn't even be able to move since their atoms would be frozen/slowed as well, and if they could move, it would still be impossible due to the air molecules in front of them being unable to, and again even if they could, they would suffocate due to the air becoming a vacuum, they would also be unable to see if it was a timestop, and would be unable to interact with it any objects due to them being frozen in time).
When it comes to these physics/reality breaking powers, they do not make sense.
"If a speedster imparts hypersonic speeds to an object for example, it can't immediately slow down to a much lower speed because drag forces aren't that strong ever. It is however consistent with time manipulation."
Yes, this is true 100%, imparting something with hypersonic speeds wouldn't cause it to immediately slow down. Likewise, in a time slow, imparting something with movement wouldn't cause it to move fast at all.
If there was a time slow, and someone tried to throw a baseball, the baseball wouldn't come out of their hand fast or at relative rate to them. As soon as they let go of the ball, it would move in slow motion. The only reason the baseball would be able to move fast after they threw it, is if the object became relative to their time when they touched it, and retained some relative rate after they threw it. In a "true time stop or slow," these knives wouldn't move fast at all, they would simply stop immediately when they left DIO's hand. And you can say, "all timestops/timeslows operate under similar rules in fiction, so true physics not apply." Yes, that is true, and you can also say, "all speedsters operate under similar rules in fiction, so true physics not apply."
When Quicksilver or Bayonetta touch/interact with certain objects, those objects briefly become relative to them, and move faster - they then lose their "relative speed," and return to their own "respective speed," which is why they appear to stop/slow. Like wise, when DIO touches/interacts with certain objects, those objects briefly become relative to him, and therefore are able to move briefly in his stopped time. The object flies for a moment, and then becomes relative to it's own time once more. And all objects in these scenes, still retain their momentum, since they are still moving - which is why they still fly after the "speedboost," or "time slow/stop" is released.
The best way to put it would be like this:
Time manipulators can make objects they interact with relative to their time. Time slowers/stoppers manipulative time.
Speedsters can make objects they interact with relative to their speed. Speedsters manipulate speed.
Fundamentally, both of these fictional powers, have extremely similar innate "secondary powers," which is why they act they way they do in fiction, and is part of the reason why they behave extremely similarly. The visual similarities between a time slow and speed boost are obvious, the "physics" may be less so, because they literally do not make sense in either case, without "secondary powers."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"They already had a brief fight with both using Witch time. To say that she only lost it at that exact moment, that the truck came flying just then and that Jeanne read that Bayonetta had lost Witch Time immediately requires more assumptions to be valid and can be dismissed via Occam's razor"
Jeanne and Bayonetta were not fighting each other when they were using WT, they were fighting a group of angels. She loses WT in that moment, because Jeanne turned to face her, and points a gun at her head. Again, this is the first time Bayonetta has seen another Umbra Witch in her entire memory - this is a very intense moment for her. Jeanne "reads" that Bayonetta lost Witch Time, because Bayonetta is now obviously much slower than her. Jeanne then escapes, which is why she "vanishes" almost instantly after the truck passes - she moves faster than Bayonetta can see.
And please, use the same logic and analyze your own argument, with your "Occam's razor." If Witch Time was a time slow, and Jeanne did release it, why wouldn't Bayonetta just enable it again immediately? And if Jeanne released Witch Time, why would it stop Bayonetta's Witch Time at all? Jeanne would just be changing her "time" to her "environment's time." The only way for Jeanne releasing her Witch Time, to also release Bayonetta's WT, is that there is only one "plane" of Witch Time. Bayonetta activates WT in the beginning of the fight, and then you claim Jeanne removes it; again, this would suggest that there is only one plane of WT. If this was the case, are you telling me Jeanne didn't use Witch Time for over 20 years? Because if she did, Bayonetta would surely have recognized time slowing down during random moments. And again, if WT was a time slow, then during the era of the clans, whenever a single Witch or Lumen used Temporal Control, time slowed down for everyone? And not instead, Witch Time just increasing their own "time" against their "environment's time" (superspeed)?
The only way it would be possible for Jeanne to drop her Witch Time, and have it also drop for Bayonetta, is if Witch Time was universal for all Witches - when one Witch uses it, another Witch experiences it. So again, you're telling me Jeanne never uses Witch Time over 20 years, or over the course of the entire game, because time never slows down randomly. And if Witch Time was a time slow, we would know that it's range would be extremely high, just based off various scenes in the game. Every time Bayonetta uses Witch Time in this fight, the flying rocks surronding them slow down. And in this other fight, whenever Bayonetta uses Witch Time, the angels in the far distance slow down. Again, another scene, where this supposed time slow is slowing things everywhere. And once more, in this scene. Pay attention to the sky/clouds in the background, the clouds are moving extremely quickly, yet when Bayonetta uses Witch Time, they slow to a halt.
What is the range of Witch Time if it is a time slow? Is it a city wide slow? Wouldn't people outside the range of Witch Time notice then? Since it would be obvious that some people would be moving slower than others once you reach the max range of this ability. Is Witch Time a global slow then? Wouldn't this screw with the planetary movement, and be devastating to Earth's natural rotation and oceans? Is Witch Time a solar system slow? Wouldn't people recognize the consolations and stars moving at irregular rates? Or is Witch Time a universal slow? Bayonetta can slow down the entire universe? And if we say Bayonetta can simply change the range of her time slow, why does she slow everything in all those above scenes regardless? Wouldn't it just make more sense to say that Bayonetta is just moving faster, and not slowing down everything?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And if Witch Time was a time slow, then why does Bayonetta produce afterimages in it? Wouldn't this also point towards it being a speed boost? I didn't bring this up earlier, since I didn't think it was relevant (they are purple afterimages, very well could just be magic). But again, why would devs portray a time slow with afterimages? Wouldn't it also be "Occam's razor" to try and reason that these "afterimages" just appear because of magic in a time slow, instead of just simply being afterimages?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At this point, I genuinely do not know what to say. People are arguing points, and aren't putting the same critical thought if their logic was argued against their statements. Again, this isn't really up to "interpretation," when the game is explicit in describing what Witch Time is. Witch Time is never said to be time manipulation by any characters. Witch Time is never explicitly shown to be time manipulation. Witch Time is never said to be time manipulation even in tutorials. Witch Time is referred to as a "speed-boosting ability" by reputable, in-game texts, an-info prompt, and multiple WoG statements: a recent twitter post, and an interview 3 months after the game was released.
Last edited:
- 3,303
- 2,697
The mechanism of Quicksilver's superspeed is never explained in the movie. It could very well just be him slowing down time around him. That would also actually explain him listening to music
You say similar, but the example you used is very much not similar. Flash doesn't tend to throw projectiles and have them get fixed in place relative to him. It's not an ability I have seen him use
Finally since this is all headcanon any way, another equally valid explanation would be that the user of the time slow ability acts as the epicenter and the field of his power is weak near him and strong away from him. Just to show why.
Because Witch Times are stackable ... If Jeanne disables her ability, the environment suddenly becomes a lot faster than immediately before. Which is exactly what happened ... Bayonetta's ability wasn't stopped but her perception of events was suddenly changed
Last edited:
- 3,303
- 2,697
This entire wall of text is just deliberate obfuscation and derailment
Witch Times are clearly stackable - meaning if Jeanne did use it previously, Bayonetta would be one of the things whose time would slow down and would be largely ignorant of what is happening because nothing changes relative to her and vice versa
Besides, you kind of missed my point. You admit that fictional time stop/slows tend to follow a pattern. Which is true. Now Bayo has a feat that is an almost exact analogue to one of the most popular and explicit fictional Time Stops ... If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...
- 5,667
- 4,895
Still agree with op
Word of God in this case just recontextualizes an ability that while it seems to be time stop is just more so similar to something like kiritsugu's time abilities.
I believe Matthew and the op have pretty much established this from the get-go and they have already set up counters to most of what has been brought up in response.
Word of God in this case just recontextualizes an ability that while it seems to be time stop is just more so similar to something like kiritsugu's time abilities.
I believe Matthew and the op have pretty much established this from the get-go and they have already set up counters to most of what has been brought up in response.
- 10,398
- 4,564
Since I see a lot of speedster references brought up here so I’m gonna give brief input again. Flashes do not function via self-time acceleration, Reverse Flashes however most likely do (at least one of the zoom’s does) yet everyone thinks they have super speed. It is explicitly shown in the comics that they would break people’s bodies by saving them at super speed so they either speed steal people or make a small tornado to slow them down gradually, when they don’t they’re just being inconsistent. The OP however has a point that time is relative and that it is very hard to differentiate between time slow and super speed without more context, since speed is distance over time, if you either make the time component smaller (time slow) or the distance component bigger (super speed) you’re still going at the same speed and thus everything acts exactly the same.
- Status
Similar threads
