Bayonetta's Witch Time is not a time slow.

[swaggyzealot]

Yes angels amp themselves, but not always instantly. If you are referring to gameplay, most angels get outpaced by Bayonetta anyway. Usually during certain cutscenes, or certain areas, do we see angels actually fight evenly with Bayonetta during WT.

For example, here is an angel "powering up" dbz style to amps it's speed to match Bayo's.

Here we see some higher ranking angels also match her speed during WT.

And here is a portion of a boss fight fought on falling debries.

Not all angels "instantly" amp themselves, some do and some don't. And like I said, if there is any disconnect with WT being a speed boost via angels speeding up or not, there would be the same disconnect with WT being a time slow. Since these powers function the same, any "inconsistencies" with angels "amping" or "resisting a time slow," would be the same. Let me know if you want me to clarify on this part.

And for your last point, I believe you are referring to this scene, no? Correct me if I'm wrong. The reason the series of events plays out as it does is because once Bayonetta, Jeanne, and the angels "amp" their speed where everything is in slow-motion, they are all on the same level of speed. Jeanne can hit the angels because they are now relative to each other - they are just as fast as each other. The only difference that exists now, is between them and environment. Again, let me know if you want me to clarify on this part

Another issue I have with this, is that there isn’t a scale for the speed amp.. there’s nothing in lore that can be used to make a guess either, we’d essentially be making one up ourselves

And there wasn't a scale for the slow time either. In either case, however much you scale Bayonetta to be "faster" in her time slow, would be the same scaling in her speed boost. Nothing is changing.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yes angels amp themselves, but not always instantly. If you are referring to gameplay, most angels get outpaced by Bayonetta anyway. Usually during certain cutscenes, or certain areas, do we see angels actually fight evenly with Bayonetta during WT.

For example, here is an angel "powering up" dbz style to amps it's speed to match Bayo's.

Here we see some higher ranking angels also match her speed during WT.

And here is a portion of a boss fight fought on falling debries.

Not all angels "instantly" amp themselves, some do and some don't. And like I said, if there is any disconnect with WT being a speed boost via angels speeding up or not, there would be the same disconnect with WT being a time slow. Since these powers function the same, any "inconsistencies" with angels "amping" or "resisting a time slow," would be the same. Let me know if you want me to clarify on this part.
And for your last point, I believe you are referring to this scene, no? Correct me if I'm wrong. The reason the series of events plays out as it does is because once Bayonetta, Jeanne, and the angels "amp" their speed where everything is in slow-motion, they are all on the same level of speed. Jeanne can hit the angels because they are now relative to each other - they are just as fast as each other. The only difference that exists now, is between them and environment. Again, let me know if you want me to clarify on this part


And there wasn't a scale for the slow time either. In either case, however much you scale Bayonetta to be "faster" in her time slow, would be the same scaling in her speed boost. Nothing is changing.

Some angels still basically instantly amp themselves when Bayonetta uses WT, which would give them a beyone blitz-worthy reaction speed

 

[Comicgyal]

Yes angels amp themselves, but not always instantly. If you are referring to gameplay, most angels get outpaced by Bayonetta anyway. Usually during certain cutscenes, or certain areas, do we see angels actually fight evenly with Bayonetta during WT.

For example, here is an angel "powering up" dbz style to amps it's speed to match Bayo's.

Here we see some higher ranking angels also match her speed during WT.

And here is a portion of a boss fight fought on falling debries.

Not all angels "instantly" amp themselves, some do and some don't. And like I said, if there is any disconnect with WT being a speed boost via angels speeding up or not, there would be the same disconnect with WT being a time slow. Since these powers function the same, any "inconsistencies" with angels "amping" or "resisting a time slow," would be the same. Let me know if you want me to clarify on this part.
And for your last point, I believe you are referring to this scene, no? Correct me if I'm wrong. The reason the series of events plays out as it does is because once Bayonetta, Jeanne, and the angels "amp" their speed where everything is in slow-motion, they are all on the same level of speed. Jeanne can hit the angels because they are now relative to each other - they are just as fast as each other. The only difference that exists now, is between them and environment. Again, let me know if you want me to clarify on this part


And there wasn't a scale for the slow time either. In either case, however much you scale Bayonetta to be "faster" in her time slow, would be the same scaling in her speed boost. Nothing is changing.

A time slow wouldn’t need one, you either resist it or you don’t. No one scaled the time slow to my knowledge beforehand, she just moved at her usual speed while the opponent was slower.

 

[swaggyzealot]

Some angels still basically instantly amp themselves when Bayonetta uses WT, which would give them a beyone blitz-worthy reaction speed

A time slow wouldn’t need one, you either resist it or you don’t. No one scaled the time slow to my knowledge beforehand, she just moved at her usual speed while the opponent was slower.

And again, how would this "resistance" work? Would be innate? Or would they need to turn it on? It doesn't seem to be innate, since Bayonetta can use WT on angels during cutscenes and gameplay sections. And if the angel needs to turn it on, they would need to turn it the exact moment Bayonetta uses her WT, which would still be insane reaction speeds. And again, it doesn't make sense for them to innately resist time slows all the time, since Bayonetta can obviously slow down angels still. In either case, the angel would need to react to a speed boost, or sudden time slow.

Bayonetta is still faster than her opponents in her time slow. The same difference in speed occurs during the speed boost.

 

[swaggyzealot]

Also, this is different from my original point, but for some reason Balder doesn't have teleportation listed on his VS page, even though he can teleport in game.

Just wanted to put this out there, someone should edit his page to reflect this.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Officially disagree with OP.

 

[Greenshifter]

When Flash fights Zoom, Zoom doesn't "resist" Flash's speed, he simply speeds himself up to match the Flash.

I’m just gonna say here that he does have a point. There’s an instance of Flash getting an infinite speed boost and Zoom (Hunter Zolomon) halted his own progression across the time stream as to also get infinite speed at the exact same time. So simultaneous speed amps of this kind do happen in fiction as ridiculous and low-probability as they seem. (Zoom did have some time to see it coming but that’s pretty irrelevant with infinite speed because if you want the 2 to be stuck in the same moment of time then they need to jump from finite to infinite at the exact same moment)

Your Quicksilver analogy is pretty bad tho I think. I don’t think Quicksilver ever sped things up, except for his music... via his computer and then put it on his mp3 to listen to it at super speed so it sounds regular speed. I’m not sure if this is officially confirmed of not, but it would make the most sense regardless.

 

[swaggyzealot]

I’m just gonna say here that he does have a point. There’s an instance of Flash getting an infinite speed boost and Zoom (Hunter Zolomon) halted his own progression across the time stream as to also get infinite speed at the exact same time. So simultaneous speed amps of this kind do happen in fiction as ridiculous and low-probability as they seem.

Yea, even then, it's not as extreme as one thinks, this happens all the time in fiction. Every time Flash (or anyone with superspeed) has to fight another speedster, they match each other's speed. Amping your speed to match someone's else's speed isn't ridiculous at all tbh, considering all speed matchups are based on this happening.

 

[swaggyzealot]

Your Quicksilver analogy is pretty bad tho I think. I don’t think Quicksilver ever sped things up, except for his music... via his computer and then put it on his mp3 to listen to it at super speed so it sounds regular speed. I’m not sure if this is officially confirmed of not, but it would make the most sense regardless.

That doesn't make sense for Quicksilver to speed up his music via a computer, considering he lives during the 70s, and his music player is a deck tape. It's not possible to compress a song to be like 1/800 of a second on such a device, let alone with the technology they have.

 

[Greenshifter]

Oh yeah X-men days of future past is in the 70’s. Fair point, still think it’s an inconsistency though rather than him having speed manipulation.

Edit: maybe he’s just real good at engineering?

 

[RoyGundam]

Your Quicksilver analogy is pretty bad tho I think. I don’t think Quicksilver ever sped things up, except for his music... via his computer and then put it on his mp3 to listen to it at super speed so it sounds regular speed. I’m not sure if this is officially confirmed of not, but it would make the most sense regardless.

The movie takes place in 1973 so that kinda doesn't make sense. Quicksilver is even using a tape recorder. He either speeds up the tape functionality, or distorts time around himself

 

[swaggyzealot]

The movie takes place in 1973 so that kinda doesn't make sense. Quicksilver is even using a tape recorder. He either speeds up the tape functionality, or distorts time around himself

Yea, and the main thing that points to him distorting time/creating a "relative speed field," is that a tape legit cannot compress a song that small. It just wouldn't work.

 

[swaggyzealot]

Oh yeah X-men days of future past is in the 70’s. Fair point, still think it’s an inconsistency though rather than him having speed manipulation.

Edit: maybe he’s just real good at engineering?

That would be funny, but he also speeds up his pong machine to play with it. I guess you could try and make the engineering argument here too, but again, it seems highly unlikely with the tech levels.

Even when he runs with Magneto, Magneto becomes "relative to him," otherwise Magneto would literally be obliterated by suddenly being propelled at such speeds. And the reason Magento wouldn't feel/notice the "relative speed field," is because he cannot perceive things as fast as Quicksilver.

All speedsters/those with super speed work this "relative speed field," otherwise Godspeed would just kill these people as soon as he picked them up and ran with them.

Basically, all super powers have innate secondary powers, which is why they behave the way they do. Those with super speed create relative "speed" fields so they don't kill themselves when they run into raindrops, or atomize everything they touch. Likewise, time manipulators create relative time fields so they can interact with objects in frozen/stopped time. Even super strength has secondary powers, "touch telekinesis," that allows them to lift heavy objects without the pressure of the object crushing around them, or just falling through the earth.

 

[Antvasima]

@WeeklyBattles

Are there some staff members you would like me to call to make a decision here?

 

[Comicgyal]

I’m not one for using speedster analogies, when we’re referencing Bayonetta. It goes without saying that they way they use speed are completely different, one partially being a magical source, and the other being from the speed force. I disagree with angel amps because like I said, that’s something we’re making up in order to make the speed amp logic make sense. It’s nothing that’s ever been considered up until this point, nor does it have any sort of gameplay showing. But at this point whatever happens, happens. If it does get taken to just a speed amp, I’m sure someone will try and make it a time slow again later down the line anyways.

 

[Greenshifter]

angel amps because like I said, that’s something we’re making up in order to make the speed amp logic make sense

Technically the angels resisting time slow is also something you’re inventing to explain why they do not seem affected by time slow. IIRC OP even had points for the resistance not being passive. It’s also usually easier for magical people to get away with making stuff unaffected by their abilities than speedsters, since the latter are grounded in science.

 

[Cyberblader90]

I think we should really wait for mod input at this point otherwise we're just going to get another full page

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Technically the angels resisting time slow is also something you’re inventing to explain why they do not seem affected by time slow. IIRC OP even had points for the resistance not being passive.

Resistances are passive by definition

And again this brings up the issue of meaning that the weakest of the fodder angles are faster than Jubileus

 

[Greenshifter]

Not all of them or not completely. Goku had to power through Hit’s time stop for instance rather than just being unaffected from the start.

Do those angels supposedly resist time slow in cutscenes?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Not all of them or not completely. Goku had to power through Hit’s time stop for instance rather than just being unaffected from the start.

dragon Ball really isnt a good comparison seing as their resistances are based on being stronger than the opponent

 

[WeeklyBattles]

And again this brings up the issue of meaning that the weakest of the fodder angles are faster than Jubileus

 

[Greenshifter]

I mean do we know for certain Jubileus couldn’t amp his speed? Cause I know that it’s a bigger assumption to say angels grow in speed than them just resisting time slow, it’s just that it seems that Angel physiology is something than can grant a resistance to time slow, something Jubileus possesses, so it wouldn’t really make sense otherwise either so that’s why I think bringing up Jubileus isn’t really a good point.

 

[Greenshifter]

dragon Ball really isnt a good comparison seing as their resistances are based on being stronger than the opponent

Flash resists mind control via his brain being too fast to control, this means that he needs to be in super-speed mode in order to resist, hence a non-passive resistance.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I mean do we know for certain Jubileus couldn’t amp his speed? Cause I know that it’s a bigger assumption to say angels grow in speed than them just resisting time slow, it’s just that it seems that Angel physiology is something than can grant a resistance to time slow, something Jubileus possesses, so it wouldn’t really make sense otherwise either so that’s why I think bringing up Jubileus isn’t really a good point.

Yes? They make it a point in the fight to have bayo using Witch Time to get around Jubileus' attacks and Jubilus doesnt amp at any point in the fight to try to keep up with her

 

[Comicgyal]

Technically the angels resisting time slow is also something you’re inventing to explain why they do not seem affected by time slow. IIRC OP even had points for the resistance not being passive. It’s also usually easier for magical people to get away with making stuff unaffected by their abilities than speedsters, since the latter are grounded in science.

Not really, since Ingame there are bosses/enemies that cannot be witch timed, or the duration is decreased by a large amount. Since you can’t “resist” a speed boost, some bosses decreasing/not being affected by witch time would just mean they have a resistance to time slow. Which lines up with canon, due to how relevant the themes for time are

 

[Greenshifter]

Why would the duration of a time slow decrease because someone else resists it? Also time acceleration also lines up with the theme for time.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

It oesnt decrease, there are enemis that are outright unaffcted by it despite it activating and affecting other enemies around

 

[swaggyzealot]

And again this brings up the issue of meaning that the weakest of the fodder angles are faster than Jubileus

And how is it not also an issue that the weakest of the fodder angels demonstrate time slow "resistance" and Jubileus does not?

Not really, since Ingame there are bosses/enemies that cannot be witch timed, or the duration is decreased by a large amount. Since you can’t “resist” a speed boost, some bosses decreasing/not being affected by witch time would just mean they have a resistance to time slow. Which lines up with canon, due to how relevant the themes for time are

Again, no one is "resisting" a speed boost, they are speeding themselves up. Which lines up with canon, due to the angels are described as "beings of light," and even Balder is said to move "with the swiftness of light."

It oesnt decrease, there are enemis that are outright unaffcted by it despite it activating and affecting other enemies around

Yes, this is the same reason why when flash fights zoom, everything slows down. Both zoom and flash are faster than everything, hence the "time slow."


And you can still use Witch Time against all enemies, you know that right? No angel demonstrates "true resistance" to Witch Time.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

And how is it not also an issue that the weakest of the fodder angels demonstrate time slow "resistance" and Jubileus does not?

Because a resistance isnt a physical stat

Again, no one is "resisting" a speed boost, they are speeding themselves up. Which lines up with canon, due to the angels are described as "beings of light," and even Balder is said to move "with the swiftness of light."

Except they have never shown the capacity to speed themselves up and speeding themselves up implies that all fodder are faster than jubileys who cannot do so.

And you can still use Witch Time against all enemies, you know that right? No angel demonstrates "true resistance" to Witch Time.

Braves do actually, they are completely immune to witch time

 

[swaggyzealot]

Because a resistance isnt a physical stat

Resistance is still a stat.

Except they have never shown the capacity to speed themselves up and speeding themselves up implies that all fodder are faster than jubileys who cannot do so.

Every time an angel fights evenly while Bayonetta has her WT active, they are speeding themselves up.

Braves do actually, they are completely immune to witch time

:I Didn't know you guys were that unfamiliar with the game. You can still use WT against braves. You can use WT against every enemy in the game. If you don't believe me, I can boot up my game later and record some footage.

 

[Arcker123]

Resistance is more of an ability that lets you resist others. it is not a stat

 

[Rikimarox2]

I mean, that doesn't mean a higher tier character in the game will get the resistances of the lower tier just because the latter has resisted something.

Not sure if that's the right way to put it, but that's like saying Jiren from Dragon ball should get resistances to Hakai due to being superior to Toppo, but he hasn't demonstrated any feats, and as such, we don't grant him that resistance.

 

[swaggyzealot]

Resistance is more of an ability that lets you resist others. it is not a stat

Weekly is arguing that some angels have an innate ability to resist WT. That's just a stat at that point if it's innate. Just like if you demonstrate an innate immunity to fire, its just a stat. Jotaro/DIO being able to innately move in timestop isn't a resistance, it's just what they do.

I mean, that doesn't mean a higher tier character in the game will get the resistances of the lower tier just because the latter has resisted something

And can't I also say that doesn't mean a higher tier character in the game will get the same speed of the lower tier?

And the argument falls apart regardless, since you can still use WT against every enemy in the game. Low tier and high tier. No angels demonstrate complete immunity to WT.

 

[Arcker123]

If the resistance isn't granted by biology, you shouldn't have it unless you have feats of such. Also stats=/=Abilities

 

[Rikimarox2]

And can't I also say that doesn't mean a higher tier character in the game will get the same speed of the lower tier?

And the argument falls apart regardless, since you can still use WT against every enemy in the game. Low tier and high tier. No angels demonstrate complete immunity to WT.

Not sure what you are trying to say here. Perhaps my lack of sleeping is ******* me over yet again.

Meh, don't know shit about the game. I only know it has ******* and asses. You guys could go ahead and figure out whether its Speed amp or TS for another 3 pages if you want.

 

[swaggyzealot]

If the resistance isn't granted by biology, you shouldn't have it unless you have feats of such. Also stats=/=Abilities

Again, no angels demonstrate complete resistance to WT.

Weekly's argument is this: Low tier angels can resist WT, Jublieus cannot. Low tier angels are below Jublieus, Jublieus is literally God. Weekly is saying it's not inconsistent for Jublieus not to have a time slow resist, while the "lowest of the low" angels can.

There is no reason for God not to demonstrate an ability that an angel does not have, when the God created the angels, and the God is explicitly said to be more powerful than every other angel in the game.

 

[Arcker123]

Jiren doesn't have hakai despite being >>>>> toppo. You have presented no proof of him being able to do this

 

[swaggyzealot]

Jiren doesn't have hakai despite being >>>>> toppo. You have presented no proof of him being able to do this

And again, I can make the same argument for the other side. Jublieus cannot speed herself up despite being >>>>> low tier angels. She doesn't have the feats regardless.

 

[Arcker123]

That relies on the assumption that witch time is time slow

 

[swaggyzealot]

That relies on the assumption that witch time is time slow

Wut.

If WT is a time slow, Jublieus is not resisting a time slow.

If WT is a speed boost, Jubliues not speeding up to make the difference.