Bayonetta's Witch Time is not a time slow.

[swaggyzealot]

This might be a doozy for some, since it was doozy for me, but apparently, Bayonetta's Witch Time is not a time slow. Now bear with me, since I know this sounds absurd. Everyone is under the presumption that Bayonetta is slowing down time; Death Battle, and literally every battleboarder says she can manipulate time. Even the Bayonetta wiki said this was the case (which has now been edited). I of course, also thought this, but upon replaying the game, and exploring the lore a bit, I found a text file describing how Witch Time works.

Witch Time, the Umbra's technique, and Light Speed, the Lumen's, are a form of "Temporal Control." Temporal Control is described as a "technique [that] sharped all of the five senses, and enables one to boost their physical abilities." Now, that doesn't really sound like time manipulation, and nothing in the document suggests that this ability is time control, besides the name itself; but even then, "temporal" can refer to "relating to worldly as opposed to spiritual affairs," which is in line with describing the physical body/perceived world.

Nevertheless, finding this text file did confuse me, so I went to twitter to ask Hideki Kamiya, the director of Bayo1 and writer of both games, to clarify on how this ability works. Specifically, I asked him on how the Lumen's Light Speed ability works (since I was writing a Respect Thread on a Lumen character, and it is what initially brought me to the above text file). Kamiya has since said that "both Witch Time and Light Speed are not about manipulating time, but rather speeding up the user."

I honestly thought he was messing with me, since he is know to troll people on twitter before, but upon combing over old interviews, art books, and even strategy guides, I've found it fairly common to describe Witch Time as to "slow down time in-game," and describe the "slow effect as a mechanic." Witch Time is also never referred to as time manipulation within either of the games. Seriously, I’ve probably spent way too much time going over everything and every time Witch Time is brought up it is never said to be time manipulation. Insane.

And as proof Kamiya isn't just making shit up a decade after the game was released, here, in an interview 3 months after the game came out, Kamiya states that "Witch Time is a skill that activates super-fast movement." Not slowing down time/time manipulation, but fast movement.

This means that representations of Witch Time and Light Speed in gameplay are merely for the player. Similar to how in manga/anime, when certain characters move so fast that everything appears frozen, Bayonetta is doing the exact same thing. WT and LS are not slowing or stopping time, they are just speeding up the user.

The confusion obviously arises to how the ability looks/functions, but it's pretty incredible, and honestly hilarious, that for over like what... 12 years(!?) everyone thought that Witch Time slowed down time, but nope, it's actually just super speed. Amazing.

And this misconception is only made worse with Bayonetta's Smash depiction, who is said to "control time itself." In Smash, the ability does work as a time slow, but only on a singular target. But it's a different game anyway, so this doesn't necessarily translate as being accurate/canon to the original games. (It does makes you think though, were the Smash developers also confused on how this ability works? Or were they just adding in a mechanic that resembles Witch Time for fair gameplay?)

Edits to Bayonetta's page, and by extension, Balder's (who uses Light Speed), need to be changed. Since this is a massive change, I'm posting this here, to gather some awareness.

 

[swaggyzealot]

Adding this as well, since it should be said.

We've established that Witch Time and Light Speed are indeed speed boosting abilities, but it appears(?) that Balder (a Lumen) also has a time spell in the 2nd game. This might get a little confusing, so again, bear with me.

During Balder's bossfights in the 2nd game, he throws out a "time lock spell" that freezes everything in front of him. At first, after discovering all the above information, I thought that this "spell" was attempting to retcon Witch Time and Light Speed to actually be time manipulation, hence the shared properties (this "time lock spell" uses the same "clock" that appears in Witch Time, and is visually similar in appearance to Light Speed (background tinted black and white)).

However, this may be just the game dev's way to add Balder's Light Speed ability in a fair way during a boss fight. It would probably be more fair to the player to show an actual "spell" being cast, instead of Balder instantly freezing the entire screen - Platinum is known to prioritize healthy/fun gameplay. Jeanne, an Umbra Witch, also never uses Witch Time in her boss fights during the first game (despite obviously possessing the ability), so it could be said that they simply were unaware on how to implement these speed boosting abilities with bosses, until they came to the solution they did in 2.

On the other hand, there is an argument to made that this "spell" is something else entirely; since Light Speed is a speed boosting ability which in-game "freezes" everything, while the spell only freezes things in the shape of the attack (background still moving). Witch Time makes the entire screen slow, so it's not like the devs are unable to cease movement on the backgrounds. The spell also has a unique animation and vfx only seen in the context of that attack.

But, honestly, I still believe this "spell" is an attempt to add Light Speed in a fair way during a bossfight. However, I can understand that it would also make sense to say that Balder can stop time, since the inconsistencies with this ability and Light Speed are too noticeable to ignore.

Let me know what you think about this part. Light Speed grants Balder super speed, so do you think this "spell" is an attempt to add the ability in a fair way during a boss fight, or do you think it is actually a separate, additional "time lock spell?"

 

[Comicgyal]

There’s already a Bayonetta CRT, so this will have to wait.

 

[Bobsican]

Wow, I actually find this fine, but let's see what users such as @WeeklyBattles think.

 

[Oleggator]

Ok, now I'm more understanding a weekly here.
Although I would be neutral and just watch.

 

[Eficiente]

Kudos for the efforts, I won't say anything on the matter due to not following the verse tho.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Making it speed amp opens doors for Quintillions of times Massively FTL+ returning

But anyway, neutral but @WeeklyBattles deserves to have his say on the matter.

 

[Cyberblader90]

this seems like this:
Bayonetta's Witch Time is a time slow... right? (Warning, this is vaguely related to battleboarding) : CharacterRant (reddit.com)

 

[swaggyzealot]

Yea, that's me, lol. I attempted to revise the all the wiki's my own, but mods here reversed my changes, so I posted this thread to gain awareness. There's additional helpful discussion in those comment chains as well, specifically with user "Joseph_Stalin_," in case anyone wants to read them.

I should also mention I have recanted my statements regarding Balder's "time lock spell" in that thread, which the reason I have posted my additional blurb as the first comment.

Bayonetta's Witch Time is a time slow... right? (Warning, this is vaguely related to battleboarding) : CharacterRant (reddit.com)

 

[Comicgyal]

Oh are we allowed to comment on this? I didn’t think I was able to, with the other one and all that.

Though I disagree for a few reasons.. some of the supporting evidence is taken out of context / not looked into deep enough, but I’d like to see Weeklys response before making my own in-depth comment

 

[swaggyzealot]

Oh are we allowed to comment on this? I didn’t think I was able to, with the other one and all that.

Though I disagree for a few reasons.. some of the supporting evidence is taken out of context / not looked into deep enough, but I’d like to see Weeklys response before making my own in-depth comment

To address your possible point, on the notes being written by Antonio Redgrave, who is a journalist writing these entries 500 years after the Umbra and Lumen clans died out - there is very little reason to believe that those texts are inaccurate (Well, besides the fact that he isn't an Umbra or Lumen). All of his other texts are correct; he is aware of the existence of the "Trinity of Realities," other techniques such as "Witch Walk," how the Umbra made contracts with demons, their use of "Wicked Weaves," the use of "Heavenly Manipulators," and many, many other aspects of obscure lore. Narratively, Antonino's Notes serve as a way to draw us into the world and explain it.

The only thing Antonio is unsure on, are the "Eyes," but he doesn't definitively state what they are because he doesn't know. We can presume, since all of the other statements that Antonio made are correct, ex. Wicked Weaves, Witch Walk, etc, that his description of Witch Time is also true.

And the in-universe explanation on why Antonio would know all this information, is even stated by him. Antonio believes that "there is a possibility that Balder (the last living Lumen) is intentionally leaking information." Which is why he would know so much about this forgotten world.

Regardless, Kamiya directly stating on multiple occasions that Witch Time isn't time manipulation, is telling enough for me. Also considering that this doesn't really change anything in-universe wise - and by that I mean, there aren't really any inconsistencies in-universe with Witch Time being a speed boost.

 

[Comicgyal]

To address your possible point, on the notes being written by Antonio Redgrave, who is a journalist writing these entries 500 years after the Umbra and Lumen clans died out - there is very little reason to believe that those texts are inaccurate (Well, besides the fact that he isn't an Umbra or Lumen). All of his other texts are correct; he is aware of the existence of the "Trinity of Realities," other techniques such as "Witch Walk," how the Umbra made contracts with demons, their use of "Wicked Weaves," the use of "Heavenly Manipulators," and many, many other aspects of obscure lore. Narratively, Antonino's Notes serve as a way to draw us into the world and explain it.

The only thing Antonio is unsure on, are the "Eyes." (will include link, just gimme a sec), but he doesn't definitively state what they are because he doesn't know. We can presume, since all of the other statements that Antonio made are correct, ex. Wicked Weaves, Witch Walk, etc, that his description of Witch Time is also true.

And the in-universe explanation on why Antonio would know all this information, is even stated by him. Antonio believes that "there is a possibility that Balder (the last living Lumen) is intentionally leaking information." (will also include link) Which is why he would know so much about this forgotten world.

Regardless, Kamiya directly stating on multiple occasions that Witch Time isn't time manipulation, is telling enough for me. Also considering that this doesn't really change anything in-universe wise - and by that I mean, there aren't really any inconsistencies in-universe with Witch Time being a speed boost.

I was actually going to reference his books, I’m well aware of the factual statements inside them. Still, you’re using them a bit incorrectly.

I know Kamiya says it a few times, I’ve watched the documentary quite a number of times. However in some cases we take gameplay over author statements, and there are quite a number of in lore texts that state that witch time is a time manipulation ability, and more than just a speed boost.

 

[swaggyzealot]

I was actually going to reference his books, I’m well aware of the factual statements inside them. Still, you’re using them a bit incorrectly.

I know Kamiya says it a few times, I’ve watched the documentary quite a number of times. However in some cases we take gameplay over author statements, and there are quite a number of in lore texts that state that witch time is a time manipulation ability, and more than just a speed boost.

If you could provide those texts, that would be helpful, since I couldn't find any.

 

[Comicgyal]

If you could provide those texts, that would be helpful, since I couldn't find any.

Yeah I’ll have it done by morning, unless Weekly gets to it before I do. I think this is the second time witch time being a time stop was addressed here, so he has better experience with the whole thing.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I imagine he is referring to temporal control by statements, which as said in the op, is not really time manipulation by how it is explained.

 

[swaggyzealot]

Yeah I’ll have it done by morning, unless Weekly gets to it before I do. I think this is the second time witch time being a time stop was addressed here, so he has better experience with the whole thing.

Sure thing, I'll be waiting for both of you then, since I am eager to discuss this.

I have since looked up the other thread as well, and I'll just add this here to preemptively discuss any other possible points.

Balder "freezing time" when he activates Light Speed isn't an inconsistency, he is just moving so fast that everything is still. Which would also point towards Light Speed's speed-boosting capabilities being stronger than Witch Time's (since everything is slowed in WT's case). This would also explain why Balder is able to catch Bayonetta off-guard during cutscenes in both the first and second games.

Madama Khepri's file states that contracting with her will grant "an almost infinite knowledge of time and the secret technique to control it"(can't find a screenshot, sorry). This "knowledge of time" is never said to be Witch Time, it would be redundant for a Witch to contract with Khepri if Witch Time was actually time manipulation, and we already know that actual Time Travel exists in the Bayonetta universe (which could be what the file might be referring to).

Accessories such as the Bracelet of Time or Selena's Light also doesn't have any inconsistencies/contradictions. Both descriptions just speak upon activating Witch Time.

There is a noticeable visual "aura," that is produced when Witch Time is activated during cutscenes. In fact, every time Witch Time is used, there is this "aura." But honestly, I just thought this was a visual representation just to let us know when it's being used. Gameplay of WT does the exact same thing anyway, and even then, it is a magical ability, maybe there is some actual visual aura that is produced considering that they are suddenly entering/leaving/perceiving everything at like mach speed.

Cutscenes, where angels break out of a supposed "time slow," are suspect at first, but it can said they are simply "powering up," so to speak, in order to speed themselves up to match Bayo's WT speed. Other scenes, such as the boss fights with Fortitudo, or Sapientia, where they fight "under Witch Time," the same thing is occurring: angels aren't demonstrating "time slow/stop resistance," but instead are just moving really fast.

One also has to remember that time is relative; it makes no difference to how these cutscenes appear. If Bayonetta was slowing time or speeding herself up, everything would look the same - she is simply "existing faster" than everything else in both cases.

To be honest, there is only one real inconsistency in my mind, and it isn't even presented with Witch Time, it's with Light Speed. I'm going to be quite pedantic and very specific in this next part (just as a warning).

During the two cutscenes in the second game where Balder uses Light Speed, it appears he is "stopping time." Now I know I said time is relative, so it wouldn't make a difference to an observer or the user, but in this case I call it an "inconsistency " due to the fact that Bayonetta's bullets slow at different rates. Theoretically, bullets would also slow/stop if he sped himself up, but not at different rates and then come to a standstill at the same vertical plane. This suggests that Balder is stopping the bullets themselves, and not speeding himself. If this is still a little confusing, here is an apt comparison. In the Matrix, Neo moves fast enough to dodge bullets - an example of super speed. Theoretically, Balder could move this fast, and even faster - as objects appear frozen around him. However, in the two clips posted above, it appears more so that Balder is manipulating the bullets, not his own speed, as Neo does here, in this scene.

And since Bayonetta's bullets are completely divorced from Balder's ability of Light Speed, it wouldn't necessarily make sense for LS effect them that way. Bayo is shooting normally, and the bullets fire regularly. The bullets trajectory should follow the same path as they were fired, and not stop on the same plane if Balder was just speeding himself up. In the first game, this is exactly what occurs - the bullets are stopped midmotion. Basically, my point is that a speed boost wouldn't suddenly effect the velocity of other objects - it would only increase the speed of the user.

(In a "true time stop," the bullets would stop immediately as well, but the only reason I classified the gifs from the second game as a "timestop," is because other works of fiction tend to (sometimes) have their timestops function in similar ways: slow down objects before stopping completely.)

So this little bump in the road actually does somewhat point towards Light Speed a time slow/stop. In my opinion, however, this seems more as of an error in animation, but we can also reasonably deduce that there is an in-universe reason for the bullets to behave the way they do in those above gifs. Balder has telekinetic abilities shown within the first game and he is capable of instantly grabbing the bullets out of the air without even touching them - indicting there is some other magic involved. Telekinesis, or some other power in conjunction with Light Speed, would make sense in this scenario.

Again though, on the other hand, there is an official game guidebook, that states Bayonetta "slows time." However these statements are larger contradicted by Kamiya himself, as he makes an appearance in the same book, with the above interviews I've posted in the OP. And in my mind, WoG + in-game statements > Guidebook.

Basically, if we look at all the available information/sources, in-game texts and out of game interviews/statements, there is overwhelming evidence towards Temporal Control: Witch Time and Light Speed, being an actual speed boost. The only evidence (that I've found), for Witch Time being a time slow, is within 5 lines of the game guide, and the Smash Bro's trailer (which wouldn't matter anyway, since it isn't canon). All other sources, multiple WoG statements and in-game texts, state Bayonetta can speed herself up. (In-game feats can be said for either way, since as I said before, time is relative, so it wouldn't make a difference to how the ability looks.)

I just think it's so hard to wrap one's head around, simply because we already thought we knew how this ability worked, lol. Trust me, I had difficulty coming to terms with this as well. And again, here is another in-game statement, not from Antonio, describing Witch Time.

But please, if you have anything else to add, I'd be happy to discuss. I'll be back on tomorrow, late afternoon.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yes, it is in fact a time slow, there have already been multiple threads debunking it only being a stat amp

 

[swaggyzealot]

Yes, it is in fact a tim slow, there have already been multiple threads debunking it only being a stat amp

I have checked the one thread Comicgyal spoke of, and nothing was debunked. If there are other threads, I'd like to read them as well; otherwise, please read what I have written or provide some evidence to say that Witch Time is a time slow.

Again, with multiple WoG statements and in-universe statements stating Witch Time is a speed boost, it seems evident that that's the case.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I have checked the one thread Comicgyal spoke of, and nothing was debunked. If there are other threads, I'd like to read them as well; otherwise, please read what I have written or provide some evidence to say that Witch Time is a time slow.

Again, with multiple WoG statements and in-universe statements stating Witch Time is a speed boost, it seems evident that that's the case.

Kamiya's Word of God is already accepted here as not being legitimate most of the time so trying to use it as evidence is not really a great idea

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Surprisingly solid thread. Not going to agree or disagree yet, however, doesn’t this mean this is simply Perception Manipulation + Stat Amp?

 

[swaggyzealot]

Kamiya's Word of God is already accepted here as not being legitimate most of the time so trying to use it as evidence is not really a great idea

I have addressed this point in the OP, Kamiya does tend to some radical things, but his statement is in line with in-game texts and previous statements he made when advertising the game, 3 months after the release. Personally, I've also noticed that Kamiya seems to only "troll" users who blatantly ask on powerlevels, he is actually quite receptive and nice when asking about the lore/design of his games.

Regardless, there are multiple in-game texts stating Witch Time is a speed boost. I have found no evidence within the games stating that Witch Time is a time slow.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Regardless, there are multiple in-game texts stating Witch Time is a speed boost. I have found no evidence within the games stating that Witch Time is a time slow.

Then im sorry but you really didnt look that hard

 

[swaggyzealot]

Then im sorry but you really didnt look that hard

Then please provide them, since I have looked, and found nothing.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The 'Topic on the Notes of Magic' has already been agreed to not be an accurate source of information in-verse as it is written by Antonio, a reporter who in his own notes admits that he does not know much about magic and is only making inferences based off of texts he finds and legends he hears about. Even in the scan you postd he admits that he doesnt have complete knowledge of how Bayonetta's magic works:

Antonio's Notebook

Antonio's Notebook is a complete set of documents found in bits and pieces throughout the first game and provides background information on various elements of the game's story and life in Vigrid. The author of the notebook is Antonio Redgrave, Luka's father. He wrote it about 20 years ago...

bayonetta.fandom.com

They were known as the Umbra Witches. While these witches are said to have manipulated magic, there remains very little recorded history to back these claims. Yet, they shared many powers with their opposing counterparts the Lumen Sages, and from their records, we can gather a better view of what magic entailed.

As no further records remain as to the nature of the technique, any more hard facts remain unknown; however, by looking at the traces left on the buildings around Vigrid, one can make some further assumptions. The traces are, in fact, footprints left on the surfaces of the wall.

I have been able to gain no further solid information regarding the magical arts. As the witch clan has long since been annihilated, and their memory forgotten, the residents of this town detest them with all their hearts... To allude to their existence is quite the taboo. Yet, the key to unlocking the witch’s mysteries still remain.

Finally, I have obtained scraps of a document that appears to lay out another elementary principle of the magical arts. I am unable to decipher the writing on the document, but it seems to describe a martial arts technique known as Dodge Offset.

Whereas in the game itself outright contradicts it being a speed amplification technique given her Temporal Control allows her to do things such as accelerate the flow of time to turn day into night as well as time travel.

In addition there are enemies who are outright immune to the effects of Witch Time when everything around them is affected by it and are not stated to have any forms of speed amplification or other means to counteract it. Seeing as even Jubileus is affected by Witch Time im sure you can see why it would be a bit ridiculous that lesser sphere Angels would somehow be faster than her right?

Theres also instances where she uses Witch Time to set up chain reaction attacks which move at normal speed when Bayo is touching them but slow down to a near stop when she launches them but then move at normal speed when she deactivates Witch Time, the mechanics of which would make little sense if it were just a speed amp.

Theres also stuff like Bayo and Jeanne stacking uses of Witch Time without outwardly displaying any indication of amping their own speed, just slowing time down around them

Theres a lot more but this is just off the top of my head, i can go through both games for more evidence if youd like

 

[swaggyzealot]

To repeat what I've said above,
"...on the notes being written by Antonio Redgrave, who is a journalist writing these entries 500 years after the Umbra and Lumen clans died out - there is very little reason to believe that those texts are inaccurate (Well, besides the fact that he isn't an Umbra or Lumen). All of his other texts are correct; he is aware of the existence of the "Trinity of Realities," other techniques such as "Witch Walk," how the Umbra made contracts with demons, their use of "Wicked Weaves," the use of "Heavenly Manipulators," and many, many other aspects of obscure lore. Narratively, Antonino's Notes serve as a way to draw us into the world and explain it.

The only thing Antonio is unsure on, are the "Eyes," but he doesn't definitively state what they are because he doesn't know. We can presume, since all of the other statements that Antonio made are correct, ex. Wicked Weaves, Witch Walk, etc, that his description of Witch Time is also true (read additional blurb below second image).

And the in-universe explanation on why Antonio would know all this information, is even stated by him. Antonio believes that "there is a possibility that Balder (the last living Lumen) is intentionally leaking information." Which is why he would know so much about this forgotten world."

And you seem to be misremembering/misinterpreting what is occurring in those two scenes. Either of those instances are not Temporal Control. Bayonetta is using a "Heavenly Manipulator" to bring out the moon - she straight up is using an object to accomplish this. You also literally pick up a note, (Antonio's Note), where he explains how it works. And again, the there is no reason to presume Antonio's Notes are incorrect, when every statement he makes is true.

Time travel, by use of the Umbran Watch, can be presumed to be a different ability entirely. Bayonetta has only demonstrated Time Travel on two occasions, once in the first game, and once in second, with the above scene you posted. During both times, she places her Umbran Watch against some circular glass in order to activate the time portal. Additionally, in every instance of Witch Time in cutscenes, we see an "aura" being produced. In both examples of the time travel, this "aura" is not produced, which would point it to not being Temporal Control. There is also commentary by Kamiya, on how this time travel works (even though I know you don't trust his statements), which again, doesn't point this towards being Witch Time at all.

And again, I don't mean to sound aggressive, but if you've read my above comments, you would know I have already addressed these points. The enemies who are "immune" to Witch Time, are not demonstrating time slow/stop resistance, but instead are just matching Bayonetta's speed in WT. And even if we want to say that Witch Time is a time slow, would it also not be "ridiculous" to say that Jubelius cannot resist time slows, while lower spheres can?

In either case, in these instances, ex. lower spheres supposedly moving quicker than Jubliues, are just for gameplay purposes. In lore (as you and I both can surely agree upon), Bayonetta can activate Witch Time whenever she wants, and can last for extended periods of time, even though you can only activate WT in gameplay via dodge, and only for a few seconds (save a certain accessory).

As for the chain attacks, Witch Time can extend to objects of her choosing. Again, even if Witch Time were a time slow, it wouldn't make sense for her bullets to move past a few meters, yet they do anyway. Bayonetta can choose to extend her Witch Time to objects around her, as she does with her bullets in gameplay and cutscenes, or choose not to, as she does here. In your example of the rocks, the same would apply, Bayonetta is choosing to speed up other objects with her. (And theoretically, this is in line with how super speed would work; I'll quote someone else who can put it more precisely, "Bayo isn't just moving faster - if she doubles her speed with witch time, then every property of Bayo related to time doubles in favor of increasing her forces-over-time and reducing all other forces-over-time, but only relative to each other. This is how Flash is able to lift a giant gorilla over his head like it's nothing when running at super-speed. When he travels at ten times normal speed, he's multiplying his forces-over-time by ten relative to his environment, so he's also receiving less force from his cargo, because his cargo is accelerating downwards relatively ten times slower and he's accelerating it upwards ten times faster, even though from his perspective he's just raising his arms.")

And in those examples of Bayo and Jeanne stacking Witch Time, we can see the angels move slower when they "stack" Witch Time, they are amping their speed. For the same reason Bayonetta would be able to instantly and suddenly amp her speed normally, they are both doing the same here.

Again, time is relative, so all examples in-game cannot be used accurately to determine if either Witch Time slows time or is a speed boost. We need to use texts, and WoG (if you are so inclined), to interpret this ability, since again - if Bayonetta was slowing time or speeding herself up, everything would look the same - she is simply "existing faster" than everything else in both cases.

 

[RoyGundam]

This quite an attempt

 

[WeeklyBattles]

To repeat what I've said above,
"...on the notes being written by Antonio Redgrave, who is a journalist writing these entries 500 years after the Umbra and Lumen clans died out - there is very little reason to believe that those texts are inaccurate (Well, besides the fact that he isn't an Umbra or Lumen). All of his other texts are correct; he is aware of the existence of the "Trinity of Realities," other techniques such as "Witch Walk," how the Umbra made contracts with demons, their use of "Wicked Weaves," the use of "Heavenly Manipulators," and many, many other aspects of obscure lore. Narratively, Antonino's Notes serve as a way to draw us into the world and explain it.

And to repeat what i said above, Antonio is going solely off of incomplete documents and old legends and admits in his notes that he does not have complete knowledge of what he is talking about. This by default calls the validity of his notes into question, and further does so when the people who ARE knowledgeable on how Witch Time works, such as Bayonetta, Jeanne, and Rodin, outright contradict the claims he makes about Witch Time just being a speed amp rather than time manipulation.

Its the same with all historians and archaeologists, they go off of information that they have but cannot make a full and 100% accurate representation of past civilizations as they were not there to experience it firsthand, only knowing aspects of it from old texts and legends. Its the difference between a historian trying to decipher what ancient Mesopotamia was like at its peak from artifacts versus someone who lived there at the time describing what it was like.

And the in-universe explanation on why Antonio would know all this information, is even stated by him. Antonio believes that "there is a possibility that Balder (the last living Lumen) is intentionally leaking information." Which is why he would know so much about this forgotten world."

That only further calls the validity of the information into question as why would Antonio trust the word of a Lumen Sage regarding the Umbra Witches if going by his own notes he knows that they are enemy clans and that the Sages hunted and killed the Witches in a massive war. Once again contradicting his own information against stuff that is actually shown in the game.

And you seem to be misremembering/misinterpreting what is occurring in those two scenes. Either of those instances are not Temporal Control. Bayonetta is using a "Heavenly Manipulator" to bring out the moon - she straight up is using an object to accomplish this. You also literally pick up a note, (Antonio's Note), where he explains how it works. And again, the there is no reason to presume Antonio's Notes are incorrect, when every statement he makes is true.

Yes, she uses her magic to empower said object to manipulate time

There are very, very few statments he makes that are true.

Time travel, by use of the Umbran Watch, can be presumed to be a different ability entirely. Bayonetta has only demonstrated Time Travel on two occasions, once in the first game, and once in second, with the above scene you posted. During both times, she places her Umbran Watch against some circular glass in order to activate the time portal. Additionally, in every instance of Witch Time in cutscenes, we see an "aura" being produced. In both examples of the time travel, this "aura" is not produced, which would point it to not being Temporal Control. There is also commentary by Kamiya, on how this time travel works (even though I know you don't trust his statements), which again, doesn't point this towards being Witch Time at all.

The Umbran Watch that channels Bayonetta's magic...

And again, I don't mean to sound aggressive, but if you've read my above comments, you would know I have already addressed these points. The enemies who are "immune" to Witch Time, are not demonstrating time slow/stop resistance, but instead are just matching Bayonetta's speed in WT. And even if we want to say that Witch Time is a time slow, would it also not be "ridiculous" to say that Jubelius cannot resist time slows, while lower spheres can?

In either case, in these instances, ex. lower spheres supposedly moving quicker than Jubliues, are just for gameplay purposes. In lore (as you and I both can surely agree upon), Bayonetta can activate Witch Time whenever she wants, and can last for extended periods of time, even though you can only activate WT in gameplay via dodge, and only for a few seconds (save a certain accessory).

I did read your above comments, and im sorry to say that you did not address the points in any legitimate manner.

There are tons of instances of fodder angels in lore moving faster than jubileus in-game (ie Irenic), we just dont accept them since it is inconsistent with them being faster than Jubileus. If Witch Time were truly a speed amp, most first spheres, a few third spheres, and all of the Cardinal Virtues would be faster than Jubileus by virtue of not being perceived as any slower when Witch Time is active.

And yes, there are multiple lower sphere angels that do resist time manip while jubileus does not, that is vastly more consistent than the majority of weaker angels being absurdly faster than her.

As for the chain attacks, Witch Time can extend to objects of her choosing. Again, even if Witch Time were a time slow, it wouldn't make sense for her bullets to move past a few meters, yet they do anyway. Bayonetta can choose to extend her Witch Time to objects around her, as she does with her bullets in gameplay and cutscenes, or choose not to, as she does here. In your example of the rocks, the same would apply, Bayonetta is choosing to speed up other objects with her. (And theoretically, this is in line with how super speed would work; I'll quote someone else who can put it more precisely, "Bayo isn't just moving faster - if she doubles her speed with witch time, then every property of Bayo related to time doubles in favor of increasing her forces-over-time and reducing all other forces-over-time, but only relative to each other. This is how Flash is able to lift a giant gorilla over his head like it's nothing when running at super-speed. When he travels at ten times normal speed, he's multiplying his forces-over-time by ten relative to his environment, so he's also receiving less force from his cargo, because his cargo is accelerating downwards relatively ten times slower and he's accelerating it upwards ten times faster, even though from his perspective he's just raising his arms.")

You do know her bullets are also empowered by her magic right? Thats why they move normally when everything else is slowed but are brought to a halt when someone like Balder uses Lightspeed.

And in those examples of Bayo and Jeanne stacking Witch Time, we can see the angels move slower when their "stack" Witch Time, they are amping their speed. For the same reason Bayonetta would be able to instantly and suddenly amp her speed normally, they are both doing the same here.

Again, time is relative, so all examples in-game cannot be used accurately to determine if either Witch Time slows time or is a speed boost. We need to use texts, and WoG (if you are so inclined), to interrupt this ability, since again - if Bayonetta was slowing time or speeding herself up, everything would look the same - she is simply "existing faster" than everything else in both cases.

No, im sorry but thats not how it works on this wiki. Gameplay feats and demonstrated mechanics of how an ability works take precedence over text, especially when there are numerous reasons to believe that the text description is inaccurate. And when text is used with two contradicting sources, the word of the person who is actually using the ability is taken over the person who is not.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

So when it comes down to it, this is pretty much entirely illegitimate due to a mix of us not accepting Kamiya's WoG on this wiki coupled with Antonio being an Unreliable Narrator whose information is incomplete, often inaccurate, and outright contradicted by everyone in the game who actually uses and is knowledgeable about magic in the verse.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Look man call me dumb but this looks like time manipulation to me

 

[swaggyzealot]

when the people who ARE knowledgeable on how Witch Time works, such as Bayonetta, Jeanne, and Rodin, outright contradict the claims he makes about Witch Time just being a speed amp rather than time manipulation.

This is not true, and if it is, please provide some statements on characters stating Witch Time is a time slow/manipulation. You have failed to provide any texts, or character statements claiming this, again only showing in-game examples of Witch Time, when I have explained that the ability would look the same if it was a time slow or a speed boost.

. Once again contradicting his own information against stuff that is actually shown in the game.

This again, is not true. Every statement Antoino makes is correct.

Yes, she uses her magic to empower said object to manipulate time

And while this is never said (she only moves the object while the handle sparks with lightning), even if she were using her magic, why would it be specifically Witch Time, (when nothing indicates that it is), and not her just innate magical abilities?

There are very, very few statments he makes that are true.

I am genuinely confused on why you believe this, when literally everything he states definitively, is true. There are no inconsistencies with what occurs in the game and what he says.

And yes, there are multiple lower sphere angels that do resist time manip while jubileus does not, that is vastly more consistent than the majority of weaker angels being absurdly faster than her

And again, why would this be any more consistent? Lower angel spheres would still be demonstrating abilities that Jubileus does not have, whether it be a speed boost or time resist.

You do know her bullets are also empowered by her magic right? Thats why they move normally when everything else is slowed but are brought to a halt when someone like Balder uses Lightspeed.

Yes, I say that right there, that she can choose to either slow her bullets or not, presumably with her magic, since it wouldn't make sense regardless for a time slow or speed boost.

No, im sorry but thats not how it works on this wiki. Gameplay feats and demonstrated mechanics of how an ability works take precedence over text, especially when there are numerous reasons to believe that the text description is inaccurate. And when text is used with two contradicting sources, the word of the person who is actually using the ability is taken over the person who is not.

I am sorry, and I don't mean to sound rude, but do you not understand what I have written? Do you do realize that a time slow and speed boost would look exactly the same, right? We don't say Quicksilver has a timeslow (since we explicitly know he's just increasing his speed), even though time "slows" down.

So when it comes down to it, this is pretty much entirely illegitimate due to a mix of us not accepting Kamiya's WoG on this wiki coupled with Antonio being an Unreliable Narrator whose information is incomplete, often inaccurate, and outright contradicted by everyone in the game who actually uses and is knowledgeable about magic in the verse.

Again, please link statements if this is outright contradicted.

Again though, even if we want to exclude Antonio's notes (which we shouldn't), an info prompt tells us that Witch Time is a speed boost. In the tutorials of both games, Witch Time is never said to be time manipulation. And again, Kamiya has said, on three occasions, that Witch Time is a speed boosting ability. Twice in an interview released three months after the game, and once more recently, about a week ago. Even if you want to again exclude his WoG, please provide statements that Witch Time is indeed time manipulation, since everything else is pointing otherwise.

 

[swaggyzealot]

Look man call me dumb but this looks like time manipulation to me

Time is relative: time manipulation and a speed boost would look exactly the same. Again, we don't say Quicksilver has a timeslow (since we explicitly know he's just increasing his speed), even though time "slows" down. There is no proper way to understand if Bayonetta's Witch Time is a time slow, or a speed boost, without a source telling us that it is (and in this case, multiple sources are telling us that WT is a speed boost).

 

[Tllmbrg]

Time is relative: time manipulation and a speed boost would look exactly the same. Again, we don't say Quicksilver has a timeslow (since we explicitly know he's just increasing his speed), even though time "slows" down. There is no proper way to understand if Bayonetta's Witch Time is a time slow, or a speed boost, without a source telling us that it is.

I mean Quicsilver also doesn't have a weird ass symbol with what looks like an hourglass appear
Why would someone give the design a hourglass if the power was not related to time?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Quicksilver also has time travel

 

[swaggyzealot]

I mean Quicsilver also doesn't have a weird ass symbol with what looks like an hourglass appear
Why would someone give the design a hourglass if the power was not related to time?

In gameplay reasoning, the clock is literally showing us how many seconds we have of Witch Time. I wouldn't hold this as conclusive evidence (that WT is time manipulation solely because it has a clock hand), when again, multiple sources state Witch Time is a speed boost. And if by chance you were actually referring to this symbol, that would be Bayonetta entering Puragotorio.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Agree with op I should also mention that kamiya's word is currently accepted for the universal rating for jubileus

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Agree with op I should also mention that kamiya's word is currently accepted for the universal rating for jubileus

It shouldnt be

 

[Tllmbrg]

In gameplay reasoning, the clock is literally showing us how many seconds we have of Witch Time. I wouldn't hold this as conclusive evidence (that WT is time manipulation solely because it has a clock hand), when again, multiple sources state Witch Time is a speed boost. And if by chance you were actually referring to this symbol, that would be Bayonetta entering Puragotorio.

Then why they literally have a phantom clock thing here, like again there's a clear theme of time here and if they wanted to just have it as a speed amp they'd not put literally phantom clock arms as visuals there and just have a timer lol

 

[Cyberblader90]

Jubileus current tier for its weakened state was from wog

 

[swaggyzealot]

Then why they literally have a phantom clock thing here, like again there's a clear theme of time here and if they wanted to just have it as a speed amp they'd not put literally phantom clock arms as visuals there and just have a timer lol

Every time Witch Time is used during gameplay, there is the visual indicator of a clock hand ticking, once more, this "visual indicator" does not discredit WT being a speedboost, when in-game texts claim it is.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Also im just realizing that the entire basis of this thread is a massive rule violation, directly messaging creators to get word of god statements to upgrade or downgrade a verse is against the site rules

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