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Bayonetta's Witch Time is not a time slow.
- Thread starter swaggyzealot
- Start date
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I have more to say, however I’ve been waiting until a bit later to address it. Your points aren’t as “Sound” as you claim them to be, or else you wouldn’t have many people who disagree. Unless you think we’re all stupid , which is a different matter entirely. Anyways as I’ve said before, Kamiya WOG is not always reliable, especially in this instance since Bayonettas lore can be interpreted so differently.
Antonio’s notebook can be read in more than one way, same goes with a lot of information regarding Witch Time so it’s not as simple as “It’s just super speed, Kamiya said so” and then try and argue that one point over and over again. I am not against witch time being a speed amp, I’ve said that OP is right in some areas however it’s both a time slow and physical boost.
Kamiyas Twitter statement is not reliable, Kamiya himself was mistaken in thinking the leaders of Umbra would join Bayonetta in the present, and a bunch of other times Kamiya says he wasn’t told certain things / left out of the loop despite being the developer. I’m not saying he’s unreliable as a whole, however having WoG be your main point isn’t convincing anyone.
We really could just make witch time a time slow and a speed boost, which would not only make sense given what the lore is, but it seems like the middle ground. But that’s just me.
Antonio’s notebook can be read in more than one way, same goes with a lot of information regarding Witch Time so it’s not as simple as “It’s just super speed, Kamiya said so” and then try and argue that one point over and over again. I am not against witch time being a speed amp, I’ve said that OP is right in some areas however it’s both a time slow and physical boost.
Kamiyas Twitter statement is not reliable, Kamiya himself was mistaken in thinking the leaders of Umbra would join Bayonetta in the present, and a bunch of other times Kamiya says he wasn’t told certain things / left out of the loop despite being the developer. I’m not saying he’s unreliable as a whole, however having WoG be your main point isn’t convincing anyone.
We really could just make witch time a time slow and a speed boost, which would not only make sense given what the lore is, but it seems like the middle ground. But that’s just me.
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More members are starting to disagree, and that’s basically it. Dragon seemed to lean to disagree, defending it being actual time stop, then left the thread due to redundancy.
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I’ve heard people unrelated to this thread say it should be time slow + speed boost as well, for what it’s worth.
Though I don’t see the point of targeting the WoG, either it’s contradicted by the game or it isn’t. Cause burden of proof is not just on the OP here due to my previous explanation of time being relative.
Though I don’t see the point of targeting the WoG, either it’s contradicted by the game or it isn’t. Cause burden of proof is not just on the OP here due to my previous explanation of time being relative.
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I find it extremely hard to believe Kamiya is wrong here. If he gave numerous WoG statements over years since the release of the games and has yet to be corrected by other devs, change his answer or come out and say he was wrong when it comes to something as important as Witch Time and Light Speed to the Bayonetta setting then I am inclined to believe he is right. He can't be faulted for being wrong on a relatively obscure piece of lore that barely changes anything of importance within the games/lore. This is especially more of a ridiculous argument when the game prompts, lore, and tutorials also point to the same idea and you would have to believe the other devs just chose to ignore them during their playthroughs or the other devs didn't see them while believing Kamiya is coincidently wrong at the same time.
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Witch time not being a time manipulative, would fundamentally change the entire lore setup of Bayonetta 2. Since the witches being “Overseers of time and history” would make no sense, as they would have no jurisdiction over time in the first place. There was a statement saying witch time was a time slow in a guidebook(?) However that is being disregarded by the OP since “Kamiya said something different.” And “It’s game mechanics”
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No, it wouldn't. The Eyes of the World are the key parts to that "Overseers of time and history" title, more so than Witch Time or Lightspeed being timeslow/stop would be as Witches and Lumens literally protect the Eyes of the World from falling into the wrong hands and screwing with time and history, which we know is what the Eyes of the World do (even individually) when in the wrong hands and is what we see in both Bayonetta 1 and 2. That is the context of "Overseers of time and history".
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Witches have several other time related abilities and it being self-time acceleration would change nothing in this regard. One guidebook vs other guidebook then since the wog was mentioned in a guidebook, Matt also had a problem with the time slow statement not being clear.
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How about this. Let Comic and Weekly post their last rebuttals and then move on from there. No more back and forth until then. No more repeated and long winded posts from swaggy. The time you all spend arguing over these small details right now is time you can be using to form a detailed post.
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It’s not, because when stated the eyes of the world aren’t even referenced.
“As “Overseers of History,” they possessed the ability to literally see everything in an instant, also known as Temporal Control. This technique sharpened all of the five senses and pushed one’s emotional energy to its very limits. It is a world where a falling drop of water can become a crown, and a humming-bird slowly and elegantly flaps its wings. Temporal Control is not just simply being able to recognize this world, it also enables one to boost their physical abilities and move freely within that single moment.”
Bayonetta 1
“As I researched the Umbra and Lumen, who are considered the overseers of history, I learned that what we see with our eyes and hear with our ears isn't always the truth I thought it to be. An Umbra Witch who survived the Witch Hunts of the past. What sort of monumental secrets are locked away in her destiny?”
Bayonetta 2
It’s not an eye exclusive thing, since only clan member could possess the eye at a time. Still it’s a bit too inconsistent for me, when you have to argue one lore vs another then it’s not consistent. Though I’ll stop arguing and let Weekly post his information when he’s ready.
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i just have one more fanged backtap to Zealot.
ive read your statements, shoving them into peoples face cements their opinion even MORE. one statement vs five, bring me at least 4 statements and i may falter in my opinion, until then stop trying it with me.
Jeanne used her own time slow over Bayos time slow, the truck thing was just me pointing out how ridiculous your statement was.
there is quite numerous evidence, i read your statements, you have a single solid statement. now then, look at Bayonetta 2's plot for me, its time shenanigans constantly there, quite blatant in fact.
we are pushing against WoG because the god who says it admits he isnt always right and is known for trolling.
now ill rest my case... until weekly and comic comment and Zealot inevitably has more things for us to tear to itty bitty pieces
ive read your statements, shoving them into peoples face cements their opinion even MORE. one statement vs five, bring me at least 4 statements and i may falter in my opinion, until then stop trying it with me.
Jeanne used her own time slow over Bayos time slow, the truck thing was just me pointing out how ridiculous your statement was.
there is quite numerous evidence, i read your statements, you have a single solid statement. now then, look at Bayonetta 2's plot for me, its time shenanigans constantly there, quite blatant in fact.
we are pushing against WoG because the god who says it admits he isnt always right and is known for trolling.
now ill rest my case... until weekly and comic comment and Zealot inevitably has more things for us to tear to itty bitty pieces
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Long serving the powers that be, it is said the clans did not use their power to interfere with history, but rather to protect its passage. We are told that they carried out these duties via use of their treasured “Eyes of the World.”
There were two ‘Eyes of the World,’ one each controlled by the witches and the sages, which when used together were able to carry out their stated task of overseeing. To prevent the power of these ‘Eyes’ from being used for nefarious purposes, they were equally split, and the clans prohibited inter-relations in an effort to maintain the balance of power that existed between them.
This is blatantly saying the Eyes of the World are the tools that allow the Witches and the Sages to overseeing time and history. Bayonetta 1 and 2 shows that the Eyes screw with history if used wrong by one side so it stands to reason that the power is split between opposing forces so they can right the wrongs of each other when one side screws with history and time. It's why Aesir is called The Overseer and why Aesir is stated to possess the power of "Overseer" which he used by "watching over infinite possibilities that layered to form history from a viewpoint surpassing that of time and space." and then he split said power between the Humans which led to the Lumen Sages and Witches. In my view, the Temporal Control description isn't saying that Witch Time and Light Speed are the reason they Witches and Lumens are the Overseers of History, it's saying that Temporal Control is an extremely valuable tool to make sure history stays on the right path. If a Lumen Sage or Witch used the power of the Eyes to go back in time and change history, having the ability to stat amp or time slow would come in handy from keeping "back to the future" changes from happening as the encounters would happen in the slightest moments in time and ensure no time paradox or history change can happen or is kept at a minimum.
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he only trolls on twitter, and only when his admittingly super specific guidelines are broken. His wog is currently used for bayonetta scaling, specifically the 3-a key for jubileus, which now backscales to several other characters.
Wog used by the op also includes interviews, not just twitter
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interviews yes i will accept, its what Trever Hendersonverse is basically built off of. my issue with WoG in this case is the man has admitted he is not always right, im more inclined to believe its both Statistics Amplification and Time Slow, i am hard against this downgrade, there is more then enough evidence that its a Time Slow, now once again wait for Weeklybattles and Comicgyal to get their big rebuttals ready, espeically the former, before we do this roundabout more, do i make myself crystal clear?
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Whats with the bold text?
"Do I make myself clear"
Im not sure if this is supposed to be threatening?
We want the thread to be chill, and an attitude like that is certainly not helping
"Do I make myself clear"
Im not sure if this is supposed to be threatening?
We want the thread to be chill, and an attitude like that is certainly not helping
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i said that because we are ignoring a mod at this point, and i already said in my first post to wait, so i figured i had to make myself more clear
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The mechanism of Quicksilver's superspeed is never explained in the movie. It could very well just be him slowing down time around him. That would also actually explain him listening to music. You say similar, but the example you used is very much not similar. Flash doesn't tend to throw projectiles and have them get fixed in place relative to him. It's not an ability I have seen him use. Finally since this is all headcanon any way, another equally valid explanation would be that the user of the time slow ability acts as the epicenter and the field of his power is weak near him and strong away from him. Just to show why.
The exact same can be said for a speed boost, that their "speed" acts as the epicenter, and the field of their power is weak near them and strong away from them. Just to show why.
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Because Witch Times are stackable ... If Jeanne disables her ability, the environment suddenly becomes a lot faster than immediately before. Which is exactly what happened ... Bayonetta's ability wasn't stopped but her perception of events was suddenly changed
Bayonetta's first Witch Time slowed everything to a crawl. The explosions stopped moving, the car Enzo was in stopped falling. If Jeanne just disabled her ability, it wouldn't cause all objects to suddenly return to their original speed without disabling Bayonetta's original time slow field.
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This entire wall of text is just deliberate obfuscation and derailment.
It genuinely is not, answer those questions. All my arguments previously have been attempts to prove WT is a speed boost, now I am simply asking questions on how would this time slow work, if WT theoretically were a time slow.
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Besides, you kind of missed my point. You admit that fictional time stop/slows tend to follow a pattern. Which is true. Now Bayo has a feat that is an almost exact analogue to one of the most popular and explicit fictional Time Stops ... If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...
Roy, you are missing my point. Fictional time stops/slows follow the same pattern. And Bayo has a feat that is an almost exact analogue to one of the most popular and explicit fictional speed boosts ... If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...
They look exactly the same. They function exactly the same. Time slows and speed boosts are identical in fictional media - which is why using visual feats is a poor way of determining which is the case.
The exact same can be said for a speed boost, that their "speed" acts as the epicenter, and the field of their power is weak near them and strong away from them. Just to show why.
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Because Witch Times are stackable ... If Jeanne disables her ability, the environment suddenly becomes a lot faster than immediately before. Which is exactly what happened ... Bayonetta's ability wasn't stopped but her perception of events was suddenly changed
Bayonetta's first Witch Time slowed everything to a crawl. The explosions stopped moving, the car Enzo was in stopped falling. If Jeanne just disabled her ability, it wouldn't cause all objects to suddenly return to their original speed without disabling Bayonetta's original time slow field.
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This entire wall of text is just deliberate obfuscation and derailment.
It genuinely is not, answer those questions. All my arguments previously have been attempts to prove WT is a speed boost, now I am simply asking questions on how would this time slow work, if WT theoretically were a time slow.
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Besides, you kind of missed my point. You admit that fictional time stop/slows tend to follow a pattern. Which is true. Now Bayo has a feat that is an almost exact analogue to one of the most popular and explicit fictional Time Stops ... If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...
Roy, you are missing my point. Fictional time stops/slows follow the same pattern. And Bayo has a feat that is an almost exact analogue to one of the most popular and explicit fictional speed boosts ... If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...
They look exactly the same. They function exactly the same. Time slows and speed boosts are identical in fictional media - which is why using visual feats is a poor way of determining which is the case.
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Kamiyas Twitter statement is not reliable, Kamiya himself was mistaken in thinking the leaders of Umbra would join Bayonetta in the present, and a bunch of other times Kamiya says he wasn’t told certain things / left out of the loop despite being the developer. I’m not saying he’s unreliable as a whole, however having WoG be your main point isn’t convincing anyone.
Once more, you are misreading the source texts you are quoting. The person who said that was not Kamiya, it was Mari Shimazaki. Mari Shimazaki, the visual character designer of Bayonetta, not Kamiya, the writer of Bayonetta. That quote was not said by Kamiya, it literally shows you who said it. You have misread every source you provided. You genuinely lack reading comprehension.
And again, isn't Bayonetta scaled to universal because of Kamiya's statements? Jubileus demonstrates no universal feats, she creates nothing universal, she destroys nothing universal, and she dies by getting punched into the sun. There is no evidence that Bayonetta fought a universal level Jubileus when we look at what occurs game. The only reason Jubileus is scaled to universal is because Kamiya said so. You are unintentionally showing your bias here. Kamiya saying something that "upgrades" Bayonetta, you accept whole heartily, but Kamiya saying something that "downgrades" her, you ignore.
Especially when this "downgrade" is supported by the game itself, unlike Jubileus being universal.
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I have more to say, however I’ve been waiting until a bit later to address it. Your points aren’t as “Sound” as you claim them to be, or else you wouldn’t have many people who disagree. Unless you think we’re all stupid , which is a different matter entirely. Anyways as I’ve said before, Kamiya WOG is not always reliable, especially in this instance since Bayonettas lore can be interpreted so differently. Antonio’s notebook can be read in more than one way, same goes with a lot of information regarding Witch Time so it’s not as simple as “It’s just super speed, Kamiya said so” and then try and argue that one point over and over again. I am not against witch time being a speed amp, I’ve said that OP is right in some areas however it’s both a time slow and physical boost. We really could just make witch time a time slow and a speed boost, which would not only make sense given what the lore is, but it seems like the middle ground. But that’s just me.
Again, if Kamiya WoG isn't reliable, why is it used for scaling? Even if we ignore his twitter response, he has said WT is a speed boost in a professional interview, 3 months after the game was released. And again, even if we ignore his WoG entirely, THE GAME TELLS US WITCH TIME IS A SPEED BOOST. It is not both a time slow and physical boost. No where in the game is Witch Time said to be a time slow. Witch Time is literally is said to be a speed boost. Antonio's notes are extremely straight forward and clear, there is no misinterpreting them, unless you cannot understand English.
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Witch time not being a time manipulative, would fundamentally change the entire lore setup of Bayonetta 2. Since the witches being “Overseers of time and history” would make no sense, as they would have no jurisdiction over time in the first place. There was a statement saying witch time was a time slow in a guidebook(?) However that is being disregarded by the OP since “Kamiya said something different.” And “It’s game mechanics”
You misunderstand the lore, as I have explained multiple times. I have even provided the sources so you can re-read them, and understand them. And yes, the guidebook, that I originally linked, says WT is a time slow, but this is contradicted by Kamiya himself saying it is a speed boost in the same guidebook, and everything else (in-game texts) also saying it is a speed boost.
Let us look at both sides, and see their arguments presented:
Witch Time is a time slow:
1. Visually, Witch Time appears and behaves similar to a time slow
2. There are in-lore inconsistencies with Witch Time being a speed boost.
3. A game guide says Witch Time is a time slow
Witch Time is a speed boost:
1. Visually, a time slow and speed boost appear and behave the same way - so we cannot determine off visuals alone.
2. There are no in-lore inconsistencies with Witch Time being a speed boost. In fact, there are actually in-lore inconsistencies with Witch Time being a time slow, since it is never said to be time manipulation, while explicitly being said to be a speed boost. These "inconsistencies" are based off misunderstanding the lore/misreading text files. Again, I have explained all the sources you quote, and linked them, so others can read them as well.
3. WoG and the game itself says Witch Time is a time slow. By virtue, WoG + game> game guide.
And again, if Witch Time were a time slow, why does Bayonetta produce afterimages in it?
Once more, you are misreading the source texts you are quoting. The person who said that was not Kamiya, it was Mari Shimazaki. Mari Shimazaki, the visual character designer of Bayonetta, not Kamiya, the writer of Bayonetta. That quote was not said by Kamiya, it literally shows you who said it. You have misread every source you provided. You genuinely lack reading comprehension.
And again, isn't Bayonetta scaled to universal because of Kamiya's statements? Jubileus demonstrates no universal feats, she creates nothing universal, she destroys nothing universal, and she dies by getting punched into the sun. There is no evidence that Bayonetta fought a universal level Jubileus when we look at what occurs game. The only reason Jubileus is scaled to universal is because Kamiya said so. You are unintentionally showing your bias here. Kamiya saying something that "upgrades" Bayonetta, you accept whole heartily, but Kamiya saying something that "downgrades" her, you ignore.
Especially when this "downgrade" is supported by the game itself, unlike Jubileus being universal.
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I have more to say, however I’ve been waiting until a bit later to address it. Your points aren’t as “Sound” as you claim them to be, or else you wouldn’t have many people who disagree. Unless you think we’re all stupid , which is a different matter entirely. Anyways as I’ve said before, Kamiya WOG is not always reliable, especially in this instance since Bayonettas lore can be interpreted so differently. Antonio’s notebook can be read in more than one way, same goes with a lot of information regarding Witch Time so it’s not as simple as “It’s just super speed, Kamiya said so” and then try and argue that one point over and over again. I am not against witch time being a speed amp, I’ve said that OP is right in some areas however it’s both a time slow and physical boost. We really could just make witch time a time slow and a speed boost, which would not only make sense given what the lore is, but it seems like the middle ground. But that’s just me.
Again, if Kamiya WoG isn't reliable, why is it used for scaling? Even if we ignore his twitter response, he has said WT is a speed boost in a professional interview, 3 months after the game was released. And again, even if we ignore his WoG entirely, THE GAME TELLS US WITCH TIME IS A SPEED BOOST. It is not both a time slow and physical boost. No where in the game is Witch Time said to be a time slow. Witch Time is literally is said to be a speed boost. Antonio's notes are extremely straight forward and clear, there is no misinterpreting them, unless you cannot understand English.
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Witch time not being a time manipulative, would fundamentally change the entire lore setup of Bayonetta 2. Since the witches being “Overseers of time and history” would make no sense, as they would have no jurisdiction over time in the first place. There was a statement saying witch time was a time slow in a guidebook(?) However that is being disregarded by the OP since “Kamiya said something different.” And “It’s game mechanics”
You misunderstand the lore, as I have explained multiple times. I have even provided the sources so you can re-read them, and understand them. And yes, the guidebook, that I originally linked, says WT is a time slow, but this is contradicted by Kamiya himself saying it is a speed boost in the same guidebook, and everything else (in-game texts) also saying it is a speed boost.
Let us look at both sides, and see their arguments presented:
Witch Time is a time slow:
1. Visually, Witch Time appears and behaves similar to a time slow
2. There are in-lore inconsistencies with Witch Time being a speed boost.
3. A game guide says Witch Time is a time slow
Witch Time is a speed boost:
1. Visually, a time slow and speed boost appear and behave the same way - so we cannot determine off visuals alone.
2. There are no in-lore inconsistencies with Witch Time being a speed boost. In fact, there are actually in-lore inconsistencies with Witch Time being a time slow, since it is never said to be time manipulation, while explicitly being said to be a speed boost. These "inconsistencies" are based off misunderstanding the lore/misreading text files. Again, I have explained all the sources you quote, and linked them, so others can read them as well.
3. WoG and the game itself says Witch Time is a time slow. By virtue, WoG + game> game guide.
And again, if Witch Time were a time slow, why does Bayonetta produce afterimages in it?
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Kmaiya does have a weird rule set
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CAN YOU NOT ******* READ? ARE YOU BLIND? DID YOU NOT READ WHAT @Dragonmasterxyz SAID? OR ARE YOU IGNORING IT CAUSE YOUR SO HIGH AND ******* MIGHTY? THIS IS THE FIRST ******* TIME IVE BEEN GENUINLY IRRITATED ON THIS WIKI, BECAUSE HOLY ******* SHIT CAN YOU NOT READ WHAT A MOD SAYS?
******* READ YOU MORON, CAUSE YOU DONT SEEM TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THE WORDS "NO MORE REPEATED AND LONG WINDED POSTS FROM SWAGGY." MEANS, YOU WANNA KNOW WHAT IT MEANS? IT MEANS YOU DONT HIT THAT ******* POST REPLY BUTTON WITH A LONG POST BECAUSE IT MAKES YOUR ARGUMENTATIVE BALLS/OVARIES HARD, AND THATS COMING FROM SOMEONE WHO ******* ENJOYS ARGUING!
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lmao
Rikimarox2
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Arcker123
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This is uncalled for
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What is with the insults?
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it was uncalled for but there is a reason for it, because it seems reading is beyond some people, now if you excuse me im going to go take a break for a bit.(by the way im adressing you swaggy.)
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Btw,
1. Interview 3 months after game came out.
2. Same interview as above, different quote.
3. Twitter Response (note that auto translate isn't accurate for complex languages compared to English, I outsourced my translation here.)
4. In-game file explaining how WT works
5. In-game info prompt explaining how WT works.
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very well summarized
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At this point both sides need to calm down, sure still using argumentum ad verbosium after being told to stop is not productive at all however resorting to insults as well as given in to your anger isn't the way to go either (speaking from experience).
I've being watching this CRT for awhile now and the tension (plus bias) here is quite palpable, I suggest taking Dragon's advice and letting things cool off until the actual arguments are addressed (for/against).
Also I'm currently in the same boat as Milly.
I've being watching this CRT for awhile now and the tension (
Also I'm currently in the same boat as Milly.
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1. and 2. those are the same picture, "lightning fast" does not mean speed amp, it just means they were going for a fast-paced game, what a ******* concept.
3. twitter/Kamiya(or whatever the **** his name is now) for one, and two id really want that to be put through not reddit since literally anyone can answer a reddit post.
4. Notes of Magic, you know my problem with that
5. this is the only one thats actually good.
now let me cool off and watch Bob Ross.
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Reaper, practice what you preach.
Should this thread be closed until Weekly replies?
Should this thread be closed until Weekly replies?
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I'll close it for now because...well you all can see what's happening. Weekly can let me know when he's ready to post.
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Sorry to keep you guys waiting, here's part 2, though there surprisingly werent that many instances in the cutscenes this time around:
22:37 Witch Time slows down everything in the environment again, and skipping ahead to 23:58 is another instance of an Angel that isnt Jubileus being unaffected by initial use of Witch Time when everything else in the environment is.
2:15:14 Lightspeed in action again.
3:07:00 Lightspeed in action again.
22:37 Witch Time slows down everything in the environment again, and skipping ahead to 23:58 is another instance of an Angel that isnt Jubileus being unaffected by initial use of Witch Time when everything else in the environment is.
2:15:14 Lightspeed in action again.
3:07:00 Lightspeed in action again.
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Is that the full response?
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Seems like it, doesn't make sense for angels to be faster then Umbra witches, since Bayonetta can dodge without witch time and Angels are unaffected by witch time anyway
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Anyway, Reaper, please calm down. Go listen to some relaxing music for example. And swaggy, you need to follow staff instructions, stop spamming walls of text, and not be deliberately provocative.
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Weeklys second evidence piece is pretty good. As Op has stated you can’t really resist self acceleration, and Jeanne wasn’t around when the witch time was activated, yet shes still moving around at the same speed as Bayonetta and the other angel. Saying Jeanne would just be moving at the same as Bayonetta self acceleration is unrealistic, because all she did was jump in and walk up.
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3:07:00 is also good for light speed being a time slow / stop, since Balder isn’t necessarily using some super paced movement. He just teleported behind her, and aligned the gullets while light speed was activated. I’m against the notion that he blitzed her via speed amp, since she swiftly reacted to his placement the moment it was switched off. Not to mention she casually keeps pace with him all through Bayonetta 2.
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