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Bayonetta's Witch Time is not a time slow.
- Thread starter swaggyzealot
- Start date
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Rikimarox2
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Forgive me if the wording is off, kind of tired here.
Anyways, I don't know if that Jiren analogy works here if Jublieus created the angels and gave them their powers. I'm not sure what we exactly give gods like these.
Not that it matters anyways, since if he gave them these powers, he should technically have them. Regardless of whether it was a TS or an amp.
Anyways, I don't know if that Jiren analogy works here if Jublieus created the angels and gave them their powers. I'm not sure what we exactly give gods like these.
That doesn't really work here. Unlike my argument, you are implying that the god tier of the verse is physically slower than the low tiers. God tiers (For the most part) always scale above lower characters tiers. Assuming those angels are the lowest of the lower, he should logically be above those characters speed even when they are amped.
Not that it matters anyways, since if he gave them these powers, he should technically have them. Regardless of whether it was a TS or an amp.
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Correct
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- Thread starter
- #365
My argument doesn't stem off this. The only reason I am saying this is because Weekly's argument is based off the anti-feat argument.
Jubliues not resisting a timeslow isn't an anti-feat because she hasn't shown to be able to do it.
Jubliues not speeding herself up isn't an anti-feat because she hasn't shown to be able to do it.
Again, why wouldn't this God tier demonstrate time slow resistance then, when it's fodder can, and the God created the angels. The God should still logically be above the angel when amped, God gave the angels their powers. But God is still < than an angel bc no time slow resist.
And regardless, Jublieus (the God), wasn't at full strength when Bayonetta fought her, she was explicitly weakened, which is (a possible reason) why she didn't speed herself up, or demonstrate a slow resistance.
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- #367
!!!! What are we even debating
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worlds biggest dick measuring contest?
Rikimarox2
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Hell yeah
On a serious note,
"Again, why wouldn't this God tier demonstrate time slow resistance then, when it's fodder can, and the God created the angels. The God should still logically be above the angel when amped, God gave the angels their powers. But God is still < than an angel bc no time slow resist."
No no, you got it wrong. At first, I assumed that this god tier had nothing to do with angels, and was merely superior. I said in my previous reply that if he actually did create them, he should have TS resistance, or an amp.
On a serious note,
"Again, why wouldn't this God tier demonstrate time slow resistance then, when it's fodder can, and the God created the angels. The God should still logically be above the angel when amped, God gave the angels their powers. But God is still < than an angel bc no time slow resist."
No no, you got it wrong. At first, I assumed that this god tier had nothing to do with angels, and was merely superior. I said in my previous reply that if he actually did create them, he should have TS resistance, or an amp.
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- #370
And I don't understand why people can't believe that a God could potentially have worse stats than a low tier. Darkseid is slower than Flash, but still more powerful than him. MCU Thor is slower than Quicksilver, but still more powerful than him.
This whole Jubliues thing isn't a good argument either way, for the reasons I've said above.
If you want to say it's not inconsistent for Jubliues not to demonstrate an ability, then it's not.
If you want to say it's not inconsistent for Jublies to have worse stats, then it's not.
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Ah, mb. And yeah, that's what I've been saying this whole time. It's inconsistent either way, so it's not an good argument (despite it being Weekly's main point).
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I’ve been kinda zoned out, but I’m really confused on what we’re even talking about. Are more staff members coming @Antvasima ? This thread is being filled with redundancies
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- #375
How do content revisions even get passed? I'm a new user, so I don't know the protocol on this. Is it usually when the other side agrees? Or is it always a community/mod vote? Just curious~
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usually when its accepted by mods with support from the supporters of the verse, though if the supporters are clearly biased it isnt fun
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The final decision is held by Thread Moderators, Sysops, and Bureaucrats. They base their evaluation on the discussion held by every member who voices their opinion in the thread, and often will ask other staff members knowledgable on the verse to weigh their opinions as well.
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FinePoint is correct. The staff members who have discussion evaluation rights should try to take the most rational arguments from all members into account when making decisions, and preferably act as buffers against unreliable information in the profile pages.
Of course, I am personally way too overworked to have the time to read and properly evaluate the entireties of every thread that I am monitoring, so I am largely dependent on other staff in this regard.
Of course, I am personally way too overworked to have the time to read and properly evaluate the entireties of every thread that I am monitoring, so I am largely dependent on other staff in this regard.
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Anyway, if the most knowledgeable members here write down informative summaries of the discussion points so far, I can ask some staff members to come here and help with evaluations afterwards.
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Can we get more input from mods on the Kamiya WoG and it's validity here? This is my final post and whatever conclusion is made it is what it is. I just what like to know the staff's view on this point.
Kamiya's WoG is the current reason why the high tiers are 3-A while previously only the peak versions of the God Tiers were 3-A. In a Bayonetta developer commentary, The character designer of Jubileus abruptly says Jubileus created a universe which Kamiya agrees with...which is followed by an awkward silence and laughter.
This is fine and all but the issue is that Kamiya's WoG is also being discredited and even claimed to not be the reason the high tiers were upgraded to 3-A despite it being the very reason on Jubileus' profile. Once again, this is ok but Kamiya's words when it comes to Witch Time are being discredited and viewed as untrustworthy.
The reason why Kamiya's WoG when it comes to Witch Time is being discredited is that Kamiya said sometimes the other developers add in things/change things without him knowing or telling him at the last minute. This is the only reason that I have found when looking through this thread as to why Kamiya's WoG is unacceptable besides gameplay and cutscene stuff which is being discussed.
These reasonings do not make sense for a number of reasons but I'll keep it at a few.
Kamiya is the director of Bayonetta 1 and writer of Bayonetta 1 and 2. - Being in these positions, it is highly unlikely Kamiya would be unaware of changes to something as important as Witch Time to the Bayonetta setting and lore.
Developer communication - Kamiya admits that his co-workers added and change things in the game without him knowing or let him know at the last minute but the chances of this including the mechanics of Witch Time and Lightspeed are none. I guarantee no developer made changes to the mechanics of Witch Time/lore surrounding it without letting Kamiya (the director and writer) know. This makes it clear that Witch Time does not follow under this "not being told about it" umbrella.
Kamiya's word vs the game - Along with Kamiya's assurance that Witch Time is not time slow in an interview three months after the release of Bayonetta 1. There is evidence within the games that supports Kamiya's words. The in-game prompts, the lore itself, and even the tutorials of both games perfectly align with Kamiya's claim meaning the developers who had a hand in the lore, the game prompts, and tutorials would also be unaware of the changes to Witch Time at the last minute if you view Kamiya's word regarding Witch Time as untrustworthy and I don't need to explain how unlikely that is. I won't bring up gameplay/cutscene stuff as I said before, that is being discussed.
Kamiya's word when it comes to Witch Time is backed up by lore, the game prompts, and tutorials.
Kamiya and Jubileus designer's word isn't backed up by....well anything to put it bluntly. Not by visuals, lore, or statements.
If the former, despite having actual in-game evidence to support it, is not accepted then the latter should definitely not be accepted.
Sure we know Jubileus at full power is at the very least 3-A but absolutely nothing backs the Jubileus at the end of Bayonetta 1 being 3-A besides the WoG.
With this in mind, my questions for those who agree that Kamiya's words regarding Witch Time are untrustworthy are:
What makes Kamiya's word towards Witch Time less trustworthy than his (and Jubileus designer's) word?
And
What makes Kamiya's answer in a professional interview 3 months after the game was released less trustworthy than abrupt trivia given by a designer in a developer commentary which Kamiya agreed with?
Kamiya's WoG is the current reason why the high tiers are 3-A while previously only the peak versions of the God Tiers were 3-A. In a Bayonetta developer commentary, The character designer of Jubileus abruptly says Jubileus created a universe which Kamiya agrees with...which is followed by an awkward silence and laughter.
This is fine and all but the issue is that Kamiya's WoG is also being discredited and even claimed to not be the reason the high tiers were upgraded to 3-A despite it being the very reason on Jubileus' profile. Once again, this is ok but Kamiya's words when it comes to Witch Time are being discredited and viewed as untrustworthy.
The reason why Kamiya's WoG when it comes to Witch Time is being discredited is that Kamiya said sometimes the other developers add in things/change things without him knowing or telling him at the last minute. This is the only reason that I have found when looking through this thread as to why Kamiya's WoG is unacceptable besides gameplay and cutscene stuff which is being discussed.
These reasonings do not make sense for a number of reasons but I'll keep it at a few.
Kamiya is the director of Bayonetta 1 and writer of Bayonetta 1 and 2. - Being in these positions, it is highly unlikely Kamiya would be unaware of changes to something as important as Witch Time to the Bayonetta setting and lore.
Developer communication - Kamiya admits that his co-workers added and change things in the game without him knowing or let him know at the last minute but the chances of this including the mechanics of Witch Time and Lightspeed are none. I guarantee no developer made changes to the mechanics of Witch Time/lore surrounding it without letting Kamiya (the director and writer) know. This makes it clear that Witch Time does not follow under this "not being told about it" umbrella.
Kamiya's word vs the game - Along with Kamiya's assurance that Witch Time is not time slow in an interview three months after the release of Bayonetta 1. There is evidence within the games that supports Kamiya's words. The in-game prompts, the lore itself, and even the tutorials of both games perfectly align with Kamiya's claim meaning the developers who had a hand in the lore, the game prompts, and tutorials would also be unaware of the changes to Witch Time at the last minute if you view Kamiya's word regarding Witch Time as untrustworthy and I don't need to explain how unlikely that is. I won't bring up gameplay/cutscene stuff as I said before, that is being discussed.
Kamiya's word when it comes to Witch Time is backed up by lore, the game prompts, and tutorials.
Kamiya and Jubileus designer's word isn't backed up by....well anything to put it bluntly. Not by visuals, lore, or statements.
If the former, despite having actual in-game evidence to support it, is not accepted then the latter should definitely not be accepted.
Sure we know Jubileus at full power is at the very least 3-A but absolutely nothing backs the Jubileus at the end of Bayonetta 1 being 3-A besides the WoG.
With this in mind, my questions for those who agree that Kamiya's words regarding Witch Time are untrustworthy are:
What makes Kamiya's word towards Witch Time less trustworthy than his (and Jubileus designer's) word?
And
What makes Kamiya's answer in a professional interview 3 months after the game was released less trustworthy than abrupt trivia given by a designer in a developer commentary which Kamiya agreed with?
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That would be me, dragon, and medeus who have all given rather extensive arguments against this revision
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Because Kamiya was in a professional intrview in that instance, whereas he is notorious for trolling people who ask him questions on twitter
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I think you're confused. Kamiya's statement about Witch Time was from a professional interview while the universe claim about Jubileus was a comment made abruptly by a designer which Kamiya agreed with in the last Bayonetta developer commentary video of the game.
My actual last post now.
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Weekly, no offense, and I don't mean to sound rude, but most of your arguments were based off falsehoods or misremembering the game. You claim Antonio is consistently wrong, when he's literally always right, you said some angels are completely immune to WT, when none are, you said you had 5 in-game character statements stating WT was a time slow at hand, and never provided them. You also didn't understand how certain abilities work, said Bayonetta was turning forward the Moon, when she was straight up using an object to do so, etc. I don't think you're particularly well informed on the Bayo universe at all.
Dragon was only in the debate for a short while, and even said this seemed more like a self time acceleration, which is identical to a speed boosting ability.
Medeus hasn't said much this debate.
Regardless, the best summarization of these arguments would be here:
OP and supporting statements
Weekly's response
My response + Another response
Summarization of mid-debate
All of Comicgyal's arguments and my response
All of Weekly's arguments and my response
My final point.
Regardless, this was a rather... long debate. So I think mods should take the time to read everything anyway, since there's a lot to summarize. This will be my last post as well.
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Rikimarox2
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Oh, and for the record, I have basically skimmed through the thread, and read the long posts and shit. Although idk shit about the verse, so I'm not sure if my opinion or agreement really matters here, but I agree with Swaggy.
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Literally from the OP and the entire reason this thread was made in the first place
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We really need to get the rule set up that Word of God should not be used if it directly contradicts the source material because at this point its just the conjecture of WoG vs in-game descriptions and depictions and guidebook descriptions
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Weekly, you make it hard to leave a thread. This is literally from the OP as well:
Please stop being purposefully obtuse.
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This is already a rule. One needs to prove it contradicts the source material of course, not other secondary material.
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which it does as the clips of it being shown in-game, the in-game descriptions, and the supplementary guidebook scans have all proven
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- #392
Clips have been repeatedly explained above; a time slow and speed boost look and function the same.
There are no in-game statements stating WT is a time slow. None. 0. You've said this again and again, but never provided the proof. You are lying.
Guidebooks scans, vs. Multiple in-game texts and multiple WoGs. I don't need to explain why the latter takes precedence.
tmw the "knowledgeable" members get 90% of their information wrong.
tmw a content mod constantly lies in the thread trying to prove their point.
This my actual final post; I'll be waiting for the verdict from unbiased mods/members.
There are no in-game statements stating WT is a time slow. None. 0. You've said this again and again, but never provided the proof. You are lying.
Guidebooks scans, vs. Multiple in-game texts and multiple WoGs. I don't need to explain why the latter takes precedence.
tmw the "knowledgeable" members get 90% of their information wrong.
tmw a content mod constantly lies in the thread trying to prove their point.
This my actual final post; I'll be waiting for the verdict from unbiased mods/members.
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Can we stop this constant pretentious tone over a fictional ability? It does not make you more likely to get people to agree with you.
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im not one to talk after my outburst on the third page but yeah.
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I still agree with OP. This is Time Acceleration that only affects Bayonetta herself not Time Slow that affects the world around her.
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Self Time acceleration is basically indistinguishable from environmental time slow
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Doesn't matter if its's more accurate the profiles should reflect it.
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So far I find myself to be in agreement with OP, although I'm totally willing to change my stance if proper counterpoints are provided.
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I am personally leaning towards agreeing with Dienomite22 and Matthew, but am not a good person to ask.
@DarkDragonMedeus @Dragonmasterxyz
What do you think?
@DarkDragonMedeus @Dragonmasterxyz
What do you think?
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@SomebodyData @The_real_cal_howard @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Andytrenom @Wokistan @MrKingOfNegativity @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Damage3245
I would appreciate if any of you could help out with evaluating this as well. Thank you.
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