Bayonetta Verse Revisions: Low 1-C, Infinite

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Limitless or endless or infinite all work....all are synonymous with each other....so the adjective itself is not a problem.

But what the adjective is used to describe is a important factor.
Its moreso looks like a description of energy than radius.....
So neutral on it for now.

And also even if infinite is rejected.....the calc for MFTL+ is wrong......1000 times is size is for volume not radius..yet it is directly multiplied into radius....if you want proper size you would have to take cube root of the factor....which would be 10 for 1000 and around 17ish for 3000.

Thats all for now will come back after my online class.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Im not sure this in reference to size, since its talking about the realms ability to ignore wounds. Does anyone have the rest of the entry?

It says it's limitless.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm fine with High 3-A if limitless is made literal in that case; but I have a feeling other staff members might say otherwise. And as for crossing and reaching the edge; well there would be no edge if it was truly infinite, so I'm still iffy about infinite speed though.

 

[Comicgyal]

Irenic is never said to reach the edge of Paradiso, only that he can it in less than a day. Although I’m not the best on infinite, the qualifications are to cross and infinite distance in a finite amount of time. Which would apply there as far as I know.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Infinite speed is basically; crossing an infinite distance within a finite amount of time, performing an infinite number of physical reactions within a finite amount of time. And back up infinite speeds is that they can cross any finite distance in 0 time and it takes 0 time to perform any finite amount of actions.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Irenic is never said to reach the edge of Paradiso, only that he can it in less than a day. Although I’m not the best on infinite, the qualifications are to cross and infinite distance in a finite amount of time. Which would apply there as far as I know.

Crosing it implies going from one end to the other

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Well, Irenic achieved it, so.

 

[Keeweed]

Isn’t Bayonetta’s main ability a speed amp, and most of Bayonetta’s 2 plot was traveling a finite distance in a day, and her friends life was on the line so she was clearly hurrying. Her having infinite speed breaks the plot in two literally instantly. Don’t get me wrong, writers often overlook massive details, but infinite speed only possibly lines up with a single enemy and then contradicts literally every other characters abilities and plot points.

I mean, I know people are just going to say ‘plot convenience’ and move on, but I just want to say infinite speed is beyond jarring when you take Bayonetta 2’s plot and Bayonetta’s main power into consideration.

 

[Comicgyal]

Infinite speed is basically; crossing an infinite distance within a finite amount of time, performing an infinite number of physical reactions within a finite amount of time. And back up infinite speeds is that they can cross any finite distance in 0 time and it takes 0 time to perform any finite amount of actions.

Thanks for explaining. I do think irenic would fit that description, but settling for a possibly infinite works too.

Most people have already given their stance, are you suggesting more mods look at it as well?

 

[Comicgyal]

Isn’t Bayonetta’s main ability a speed amp, and most of Bayonetta’s 2 plot was traveling a finite distance in a day, and her friends life was on the line so she was clearly hurrying. Her having infinite speed breaks the plot in two literally instantly. Don’t get me wrong, writers often overlook massive details, but infinite speed only possibly lines up with a single enemy and then contradicts literally every other characters abilities and plot points.

I mean, I know people are just going to say ‘plot convenience’ and move on, but I just want to say infinite speed is beyond jarring when you take Bayonetta 2’s plot and Bayonetta’s main power into consideration.

infinite speed comes from Bayonetta 1

 

[Keeweed]

Yes but Bayonetta 2 follows Bayonetta 1. If Bayonetta can keep up with characters that can move infinite speed that still breaks Bayonetta 2’s plot. And witch time is in Bayonetta 1 and it’s a speed amp.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yes but Bayonetta 2 follows Bayonetta 1. If Bayonetta can keep up with characters that can move infinite speed that still breaks Bayonetta 2’s plot. And witch time is in Bayonetta 1 and it’s a speed amp.

Bayonetta can keep up with Irenic without the use of Witch Time

How dos it break the plot? Its not movemnt speed only reactions/combat speed

 

[Keeweed]

What I’m saying is that her main ability being a speed amp makes zero sense if her speed is straight infinite.

 

[Comicgyal]

Yes but Bayonetta 2 follows Bayonetta 1. If Bayonetta can keep up with characters that can move infinite speed that still breaks Bayonetta 2’s plot. And witch time is in Bayonetta 1 and it’s a speed amp.

How does that break the plot exactly? I don’t exactly understand the reasoning. Bayonetta can’t just run at an “infinite speed” to get to Jeanne, because Bayonetta did not know how to get to the gates of hell for half the story. When she DID figure out how to get there, she still had to break the seal. I don’t see how it messes with anything at all

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I'm going to have to agree with Keeweed; I'm all for Massively FTL+, but Infinite speed is super iffy, hurts the plot, and there was an entire thread discussing that taking time to reach destination is an argument against infinite speed.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yeah, I'm going to have to agree with Keeweed; I'm all for Massively FTL+, but Infinite speed is super iffy, hurts the plot, and there was an entire thread discussing that taking time to reach destination is an argument against infinite speed.

How does it break the plot exactly? Like im sorry to b rude but can you giv an actual xplanation rather than dismissing it so casually?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

there was an entire thread discussing that taking time to reach destination is an argument against infinite speed.

...Isnt that literally what infinite speed it? travling an infinite distance in a finite amount of time? How does it make any sense that taking a finite amount of time to cross an infinite distance contradicts th ability to cross an infinite distance in a finite amount of time?

 

[Keeweed]

She still had trouble actually getting there. It took her time, though if it doesn’t scale to her movement speed (despite the fact I remember she can keep up with those enemies with her movements), that still doesn’t really explain the speed amp part. I’m not saying she 100% can’t be infinite because writers are sometimes very dumb, but it’s very jarring to have her have infinite reactions, only to have her main power be a speed amp.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

How does that break the plot exactly? I don’t exactly understand the reasoning. Bayonetta can’t just run at an “infinite speed” to get to Jeanne, because Bayonetta did not know how to get to the gates of hell for half the story. When she DID figure out how to get there, she still had to break the seal. I don’t see how it messes with anything at all

Hell Infninte wouldnt even scale to her running speed, just her reactions and combat speed

 

[Comicgyal]

Also by that logic, a lot of instances in plot wouldn’t make sense. If Bayonetta was 3-A, why doesn’t she just one shot every Angel she comes across? If she can be invulnerable due to her lollipops, why does she even bother taking damage, because the lollipops have that same effect in the game.

Yes, it is plot convenience. Even if her speed wasn’t infinite, and just SUPER above mftl+, she would still have no problem searching all of the earth in just a few seconds to find the gates of hell.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

She still had trouble actually getting there. It took her time, though if it doesn’t scale to her movement speed (despite the fact I remember she can keep up with those enemies with her movements), that still doesn’t really explain the speed amp part. I’m not saying she 100% can’t be infinite because writers are sometimes very dumb, but it’s very jarring to have her have infinite reactions, only to have her main power be a speed amp.

You know thre ar a **** ton of charactrs with infinite and immeasurable speed who have sped amps right?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Yeah, I'm going to have to agree with Keeweed; I'm all for Massively FTL+, but Infinite speed is super iffy, hurts the plot, and there was an entire thread discussing that taking time to reach destination is an argument against infinite speed.

Breaking the plot when she had to fight several angels far stronger than Irenic, literally got sent back in time, fought Balder the entire game, fought Loki, Alrune, then got her soul back? These are all characters comparable if not stronger than Irenic.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Keeweed already explained it; she needed a whole day to reach the destination of her friends, and this is despite a finite distance. And Witch Time is a speed amp, she can stack her speed to keep on approaching infinite speed, but I have doubts about her reaching it. Also, it makes little sense for someone to have infinite combat speed without being infinite in general. Infinite speed and Immeasurable can't really be separated from different categories of speed; having any bit of susceptibility to natural flows of time pretty much invalidates Infinite/Immeasurable speed by default unless they have variable speed.

At best, it would only be Infinite in dire circumstances where she dodges multiple times. But without Witch Time, she's clearly finite in all categories of speed.

 

[Comicgyal]

She still had trouble actually getting there. It took her time, though if it doesn’t scale to her movement speed (despite the fact I remember she can keep up with those enemies with her movements), that still doesn’t really explain the speed amp part. I’m not saying she 100% can’t be infinite because writers are sometimes very dumb, but it’s very jarring to have her have infinite reactions, only to have her main power be a speed amp.

Getting where? Where are you referring to?

I don’t see why she can’t amp her speed, while also having infinite speed. You can be faster than someone who has infinite speed, or faster than someone who’s immeasurable, I don’t understand the logic. If she was omnipresent or something with a speed amp then I could understand.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Keeweed already explained it; she needed a whole day to reach the destination of her friends, and this is despite a finite distance.

Cool? How does that contradict it when it would only scal to combat and reactions and not running speed?

And Witch Time is a speed amp, she can stack her speed to keep on approaching infinite speed, but I have doubts about her reaching it. Also, it makes little sense for someone to have infinite combat speed without being infinite in general. Infinite speed and Immeasurable can't really be separated from different categories of speed; having any bit of susceptibility to natural flows of time pretty much invalidates Infinite/Immeasurable speed by default.

Would you like me to post all the character on the wiki who have infinite/immeasurable ractions and combat speed? Because thre are a lot, bayonetta wouldnt be the first

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Keeweed already explained it; she needed a whole day to reach the destination of her friends, and this is despite a finite distance. And Witch Time is a speed amp, she can stack her speed to keep on approaching infinite speed, but I have doubts about her reaching it. Also, it makes little sense for someone to have infinite combat speed without being infinite in general. Infinite speed and Immeasurable can't really be separated from different categories of speed; having any bit of susceptibility to natural flows of time pretty much invalidates Infinite/Immeasurable speed by default unless they have variable speed.

At best, it would only be Infinite in dire circumstances where she dodges multiple times. But without Witch Time, she's clearly finite in all categories of speed.

I do not see at all how this contributes to this? It only took several hours, and she was literally fighting people comparable if not stronger than Irenic, so.

 

[Comicgyal]

Keeweed already explained it; she needed a whole day to reach the destination of her friends, and this is despite a finite distance. And Witch Time is a speed amp, she can stack her speed to keep on approaching infinite speed, but I have doubts about her reaching it. Also, it makes little sense for someone to have infinite combat speed without being infinite in general. Infinite speed and Immeasurable can't really be separated from different categories of speed; having any bit of susceptibility to natural flows of time pretty much invalidates Infinite/Immeasurable speed by default unless they have variable speed.

Bayonetta didn’t take an entire day to reach Jeanne though, Rodin said she would have about a day to reach her, but Bayonetta reached Jeanne without her umbran clock running out. And mind you, she’s still fighting enemies comparable or stronger than Irenic, spent a lot of time fighting balder, and was trapped inside a demon whale

 

[Comicgyal]

The infinite speed standards, and the argument kinda doesn’t make sense.

To have infinite speed, you need to travel an infinite distance in a finite amount of time. But Bayonetta can’t have it, because she took less than a day to reach Jeanne? Still a finite amount of time? It taking her time to get there doesn’t matter, because according to the wiki you still need to abide by time to a degree to even have infinite speed.

 

[Cyberblader90]

You are also supposed to believe that Irenic is travelling at 100% speed during that gameplay section and are not only slowing down to attack their target (Bayonetta). Also, ignore regular cars having comparable speed to Irenic and why Angels also used regular cars as platforms to attack Bayonetta who was on the bike.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I edited my post to add more details; also Weekly, there is a thread dedicated to downgrading lists of infinite or Immeasurable speeds who lack criteria; which all those characters you're thinking off might just be on those lists. But it's been inactive and not many people got around to that.

However, I still don't see how her being Infinite speed normally is consistent; also, a whole day, or even a few seconds are still finite speed timeframes. She needs to regularly move so fast it's almost as if 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of everything else in the universe are 100% frozen. Which she's regularly effect by gravity and the like especially outside of Witch Time.

 

[Keeweed]

You know thre ar a **** ton of charactrs with infinite and immeasurable speed who have sped amps right?

I believe they should be downgraded then. Having a speed amp, in and of itself is beyond a massive contradiction for that tier, it completely destroys the entire point of those speeds.

There are a lot of responses and it’s 1 am here so I’ll just respond to two more. The first) her not just instantly slaughtering fodder enemies comes from it being a game, and 2nd her character. There are crap ton of cutscenes where she screws around with enemies. Like the golem cutscene literally has Bayonetta stand there til the very last second then chucks the controls towards the player (in which case 95% of people promptly get slapped in the face, because the cutscene ends mid golem attack).

2) Just want to say again, our standards on immeasurable speed was recently made stricter, I personally think they, and infinite speed, should have even stricter standards because way too many people are getting infinite speed for practically little to no reason. This speed completely wrecking the plot should be actually looked at and it should downgrade a crap ton of verses because we are completely annihilating stories by giving characters powers they clearly don’t have. When it comes to Bayonetta her movement speed would absolutely scale to the Irenic she can keep up with them, and she scales to people vastly superior to them.

Though I just want to note, I’m very tired right now, so if I come off as rude, or my arguments aren’t as good as they could be I’m sorry. It’s just this revision finally made me realize how easily we’ve been handing out infinite and immeasurable speed and I think the site wide standard on both need to be way stricter now.

I just want to say I’m technically fine with Bayonetta having possibly infinite speed for now, but I need to make a thread in the future. Just know I still find Bayonetta being infinite speed to be one of the most jarring things ever (don’t worry that also applies to most infinite speed characters). Sorry for rambling, but once again I’m very tired, so goodnight.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Well maybe the infinite speed only applies for "space travel" sort of.....I have come accross similar circumstance in Teen Titans where Firestorm has feat of traveling to different Solar Systems......and even has instances of fights while flying....but they may not apply normally to herself or others for scaling because it is outlierish I guess??

 

[Comicgyal]

I edited my post to add more details; also Weekly, there is a thread dedicated to downgrading lists of infinite or Immeasurable speeds who lack criteria; which all those characters you're thinking off might just be on those lists. But it's been inactive and not many people got around to that.

However, I still don't see how her being Infinite speed normally is consistent; also, a whole day, or even a few seconds are still finite speed timeframes. She needs to regularly move so fast it's almost as if 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of everything else in the universe are 100% frozen. Which she's regularly effect by gravity and the like especially outside of Witch Time.

I understand that, but I kinda don’t really like that logic in regards to scaling and games. To expect Bayonetta to uphold that standard (while I get is what vs battle requires) is unrealistic. As weekly made the comparison before, it’s like excepting a MFTL character to see darkness everytime they run. Or for supersonic characters to never hear anything when they go that speed. It’s very unrealistic, and I personally couldn’t name any instances where that has happened.

Outside of the running/highway scene, angels would still scale because of the hierarchy. Any Angel first sphere above would be stronger, and faster than Irenic. This scales to balder which scales to Bayonetta and so on.

I’d be fine with possibly infinite, again the standards just confuse me.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I believe they should be downgraded then. Having a speed amp, in and of itself is beyond a massive contradiction for that tier, it completely destroys the entire point of those speeds.

There are a lot of responses and it’s 1 am here so I’ll just respond to two more. The first) her not just instantly slaughtering fodder enemies comes from it being a game, and 2nd her character. There are crap ton of cutscenes where she screws around with enemies. Like the golem cutscene literally has Bayonetta stand there til the very last second then chucks the controls towards the player (in which case 95% of people promptly get slapped in the face, because the cutscene ends mid golem attack).

2) Just want to say again, our standards on immeasurable speed was recently made stricter, I personally think they, and infinite speed, should have even stricter standards because way too many people are getting infinite speed for practically little to no reason. This speed completely wrecking the plot should be actually looked at and it should downgrade a crap ton of verses because we are completely annihilating stories by giving characters powers they clearly don’t have. When it comes to Bayonetta her movement speed would absolutely scale to the Irenic she can keep up with them, and she scales to people vastly superior to them.

Though I just want to note, I’m very tired right now, so if I come off as rude, or my arguments aren’t as good as they could be I’m sorry. It’s just this revision finally made me realize how easily we’ve been handing out infinite and immeasurable speed and I think the site wide standard on both need to be way stricter now.

I just want to say I’m technically fine with Bayonetta having possibly infinite speed for now, but I need to make a thread in the future. Just know I still find Bayonetta being infinite speed to be one of the most jarring things ever (don’t worry that also applies to most infinite speed characters). Sorry for rambling, but once again I’m very tired, so goodnight.

This I don't agree with this logic.....speed amps aren't contradiction....that just mean they can amp themselves from that baseline...its moreso internal scaling....If we use this faulty logic for AP scaling for of High3A and Above then it would also cause lot of problems....at that point scaling chains and AP multipliers would also stop being relevent.

 

[Cyberblader90]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/bayonetta-verse-revisions-low-1-c-infinite.115165/post-3703482

Repost of my most recent issue.

 

[Comicgyal]

Outside of the running/highway scene, angels would still scale because of the hierarchy. Any Angel first sphere above would be stronger, and faster than Irenic. This scales to balder which scales to Bayonetta and so on.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/bayonetta-verse-revisions-low-1-c-infinite.115165/post-3703482

Repost of my most recent issue.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Why would they be faster than irenic when it's whole point in lore is it speed? It may be low end on the Halo but they make a case in point of its speed being something special. Otherwise why was it chosen as a messenger?

 

[Comicgyal]

Why would they be faster than irenic when it's whole point in lore is it speed? It may be low end on the Halo but they make a case in point of its speed being something special. Otherwise why was it chosen as a messenger?

I said in my blog that even though it’s called a third sphere, its in game classification (halo wise) is that of a first sphere. The other first spheres and cardinal virtues scaling is plausible, especially Jubileus since she quite literally made the angels

 

[Comicgyal]

Also just because it was made to be fast, doesn’t mean other angels can’t be faster..? It’s designated as the messenger Angel because it’s designed as a car, that is its whole purpose. Doesn’t mean other angels can’t be faster.

 

[Cyberblader90]

I said in my blog that even though it’s called a third sphere, its in game classification (halo wise) is that of a first sphere. The other first spheres and cardinal virtues scaling is plausible, especially Jubileus since she quite literally made the angels

That doesn't answer my question. Jubileus and other God tiers being above it in speed is fine. I'm referring to the issue literally on screen with angels that should be inherently slower than it being relative to the motorcycle. The bigger issue being the cars they are on top of being relative to it in speed