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Base Natsu Scaling to Spriggan level

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@Burning Full Fingers

So do you or do you not agree with Natsu scaling, also yeah, Elfman and Lisanna beat Ajeel, it's bad writing, but we never saw them fight before in the Alvarez Arc, so technically there's nothing saying they aren't that strong, it's just weird that they are
 
Beast Zero Gudako said:
Elfman and Lisanna beat Historia Ajeel, which was stated to be weaker than Alive Ajeel.
Click to expand...
Ajeel never died. He became king of Alvarez with his grandfather as a advisor iirc.
 
So that's 9 who agree with Natsu scaling now, how many more people do we need until this is settled, because this seems settled at the moment, and I don't want to keep debating on this more than we already have many times before
 
Please summarize the arguments for both sides and who agrees with which one. I'll summon Ant to get his opinion here.
 
My argument is the OP, so anyone who wants to know why Natsu should scale just read that
 
I told you to sum it up in a couple of words because he's really overtaxed to make him read that long paragraph.
 
Natsu scales because he damages Spriggans in many different scenarios, and in one case defeats one in base form on his own, people who he is comparable to have also been shown to damage and defeat Spriggans, and Natsu in many fights has been able to take little damage from the spriggans, the Spriggans mostly have the advantage in these battles due to having Hax, the argument that Natsu does only slight damage to the Spriggans is silly because they do slight damage to him, so they're damaging each other equally, there more things that scale him to the spriggans than things against, so he should scale
 
I suppose that the summary seems to make sense.
 
So his justifications should probably something like this:

Attack Potency: Large Mountain level (Defeated an empowered Neinhart, melted Invel's ice), at least Large Mountain level with FDKM (Vaporized Lake Scilliora with the heat of his power, defeated Ikusa-Tsunagi with a single attack)

The damage he did against Ajeel and Jacob was miniscule, so probably not worth mentioning in his base AP justification.
 
This is the scaling

Likely High 7-A: Lucy, Lisanna, Elfman etc.

High 7-A: Base Natsu, Spriggan level characters etc.

At least High 7-A: FDKM Natsu, Laxus, Jellal etc.

Gildarts stays the same
 
BlackeJan said:
1. Gray DS was for show (he could manipulate the appearance)


2. Natsu punched Ajeel in the face yet Ajeel wasn't even hurt that bad


3. Erza who's stronger then Base Natsu washaving trouble with Ajeel and got a lucky shot cause of distractio . Even with her Requip working, it wouldn't matter since beforehand, Erza couldn't touch him + Laxus could had one-shot him so you basically just needed to be stronger to take him out but Erza couldn't unless help.


4. Base Gajeel got 1 hit w/ metal headbutt but Bloodman didn't even take any damage . Now even if Bloodman didnt have particles, Base Gajeel's hit didnt do anything to him yet Base Bloodman severely damaged Base Gajeel + DF Gajeel then he turned the tables


5. Its true that they beat Ajeel but here Ajeel was beating both them down so even though that they won, we dont't know HOW they did it. They could had used Ajeels weakness or used the enviroment to win. This still goes back to how Erza had trouble on her own and she's stronger then them together


6. Base Natsu can't be comparable to Jacob since Jecob blocked an attack from Natsu that didnt hurt him, Jacob hits Natsu though Natsu gets back up to hit Jacob but here it looks like he didnt even take that much damage. From here to here, Jacob was beating them (even without Stealth, Natsu couldnt make him bleed or was only able to give him slight damage that Jacob shooked off in secs). Base Natsu was able to get a hit with Lucy b/c of Jacob's weakness/distractio though all it did was get him a tiny nosebleed and pissed him off though plz note the fact that it was Base Natsu AND Lucy that made Jacob bleed a bit, not Natsu on his own.

Jacob is taking both of them on and is STILL beating them down (hereto here) If it wasn't foe Lucy's plan then they both would had lost

Now it should also be noted that this was a casual Jacob vs Natsu (holding back) but this is where is shows that Base Natsu can't be comparable. Max said here that "Natsu wouldn't be able to go all out in the guild" now that's true HOWEVER Natsu going all out is actually him using FDKM now if Base Natsu is comparable then why did he have to use a mode to one shot Jacob when he could had just use his FP in base and one shot Jacob? its casue in order to win FDKM is what he needed to use


7. Invel wasn't even trying when he Base Natsu's flame even when Natsuput even more heat into it and shown here and what was even more shocking was how relaxed he was about it so Base Natsu full throttle heat melted a CASUAL Invel's ice though then again Base Natsu fire was being frozen again and again beforehand.


8. That was PoF Natsu that one shot Neihart cause here, here (even with PoF, Base Natsu did take a but of damage), & here he was spouting out frienship yet he was scared of Brandish from beforehand that he was gonna use FDKM. Hell even Erza was weary of her


9. Its an anime trope where the main characters take "slight" damage fom stronger enemies that could had actually went ahead and killed them and also so the author can prolong the fight. Ex: SM Naruto getting hit by SM Madara who is leagues above SM Naruto, Base Luffy getting beat by Zoan Lucci, and FT was got hurt by Zero but got back up to fight and we don't scale them or their base form to those enemies


10. U can't say that Natsu didn't try with his iron fist with Ikusa cause u can tell he went all out and all it did was stagger cause if that was the case then he would had used the same technique but used more power to actually take Ikusa down but that wasn't the case. Hiro wasn't hyping Brandish up, he was showing how outclasses they were went confronting her cause if that was the case then Natsu would get scared like that and went to take her on. Just cause Natsu wasn't afraid to take Ikusa that doesn't mean yur automatically stronger. Again I can be weaker then another one but still have courage to take him on

This is a refute of Base Natsu scaling
Click to expand...
 
BlackeJan; your refutation would probably be better recieved if the individual points/arguments were broken up into bullet points.

Two huge paragraphs isn't as easy to digest.
 
I have to say, you made an impressive rebuttal BlackeJan. There are some legitimate points there, though I still disagree.

I suppose this really depends on perspective, since power levels where really unclear throughout alvarez.
 
Captain Torch said:
While I don't necessarily agree with BlackeJan on a lot of his points, I have to say that he made an impressive rebuttal. And he does have some legitimate points.
I suppose this really depends on perspective, since power levels where really unclear throughout alvarez.
Click to expand...
All fictions scaling is based on perpective, assuming all arguments are correct. While BlackeJa's counterpoints could be correct, I believe occam's razor would rejected them compare to its counterpoints.
 
I do think that the Neinhart feat is particularly weird.

Natsu is established at the beginning of the arc to be weaker than Brandish considerably, and even against Jacob he can only draw a single drop of blood when working together with Lucy.

Yet he beats an empowered Neinhart with a single punch? Either Natsu gets a ridiculous boost when talking about friendship, or he somehow used a FDKM attack without naming it.
 
Captain Torch said:
I have to say, you made an impressive rebuttal BlackeJan. There are some legitimate points there, though I still disagree.

I suppose this really depends on perspective, since power levels where really unclear throughout alvarez.
Click to expand...
Thank u very much. That means a lot for me for U to say that
 
@Elizhaa

Yeah, I also think that Occam's razor rejects it, just pointed out that his perspective isn't necessarily "wrong", given the uncertainties.

Also, I agree with Damage that the Neinhart feat is quite weird. Base Natsu has been shown to be able to match Spriggans, while FDKM Natsu can one shot them.

So base Natsu one shotting someone who is allegedly >>Spriggan level (Enchanted Neinhart) does seem like an outlier or PoF
 
Also, after checking the "Natsu one shotting Neinhart" scene, I realized something else that's weird. Brandish witnessed Natsu one shotting Jacob, so she saw his FDKM in action. However she was still surprised by Natsu one shotting Neinhart, saying "Is he.. really that strong?"

Which means that either:

a) Base Natsu got boosted by PoF, allowing him to one shot Neinhart

or

b)Natsu actually used a FDK Technique(w/o saying the name of the attack though, which is weird) to one shot Neinhart, and Brandish realized that she underestimated his power.

or

c) Natsu got stronger throughout the arc, to the point of being able to one shot Enchanted Neinhart(Which might make sense, given how base Natsu was able to hold off Zeref)
 
Captain Torch said:
Also, after checking the "Natsu one shotting Neinhart" scene, I realized something else that's weird. Brandish witnessed Natsu one shotting Jacob, so she saw his FDKM in action. However she was still surprised by Natsu one shotting Neinhart, saying "Is he.. really that strong?"

Which means that either:

a) Base Natsu got boosted by PoF, allowing him to one shot Neinhart

or

b)Natsu actually used a FDK Technique(w/o saying the name of the attack though, which is weird) to one shot Neinhart, and Brandish realized that she underestimated his power.

or

c) Natsu got stronger throughout the arc, to the point of being able to one shot Enchanted Neinhart(Which might make sense, given how base Natsu was able to hold off Zeref)
Click to expand...
I'd argue either A or B are more likely than C.

As I've mentioned b4 Natsu never exhibits such drastic growth to his base power without either a powerup or passage of time. I'm not comfortable with just assuming that he got so much more powerful because of accelerated development when we've never seen him do so b4.

A and B though are more likely, A due to Natsu's flames of emotion (which I feel most ppl more often than not forget even exists) and B while weird isn't wholly out of the ordinary. There are tons of instances where Natsu performs a spell without actually calling its name.
 
Still need staff members who know FT to give their opinion. I asked Ant-San again to see it but he hasn't said anything back and idk who else watches FT
 
@Blackejan

I just want this to be over, you made some solid points, but I still disagree with them, but that's mostly due to perspective, overall no hard feelings
 
@Mitch, what do you think of what Torch posted up above?
 
I am too busy to read such a long post right now. Sorry.
 
I think that what Torch pointed out makes sense, it was weird that Base Natsu could defeat Neinhart like that, however speculation is based on perspective, Base Natsu did beat Neinhart, and we can't really write it off as anything else, the power of friendship argument is still dumb in my opinion, in plenty of series, Heroes manage to defeat opponents after friendship speeches and they all get stronger due to it, Natsu has done this all the time, if we couldn't scale Natsu because he won by giving a speech about Friendship, then he wouldn't scale to a lot of things, which I feel is wrong, you're supposed to measure a characters tier based on their max power, and max Base Natsu can defeat Neinhart who is stronger than Brandish, I think the real issue is Hiro Mashima hyping the Spriggans, even if Natsu was afraid of Brandish, we know that with FDKM, he could have One-Shot her anyways, so even without his base form, he would've been able to finess her, meaning that him being afraid of her at all, makes 0 sense to begin with, I think the most logical reason is that the spriggans have differing Powers, all of them are stated to be at least as strong as Brandish, but feat-wise, Jacob is above Brandish and Neinhart, I think it's really just based on perspective of what you believe, but since we're supposed to rate the characters at max power, Base Natsu is Spriggan level, it's the same reason we scale X784 Natsu to Zancrow, at the beginning of the series, Natsu isn't as strong as Zancrow, but we scale X784 Natsu to his max power in X784, so we should do the same with X792 Base Natsu
 
Once again, even if we didn't scale Natsu to the Spriggans completely by discrediting everything he does to them, what the hell would we scale him too, just cause I think Natsu is comparable to Spriggans, does not mean I think he can beat them all on his own, comparable doesn't always mean stronger than said character, it means he's around their level of power, I mean Iron Man scales to Thanos and yet Thanos is obviously stronger
 
I think Jan makes sense now that his arguments are more explained. Considering Natsu used FDKM to defeat Jacob and there's no such thing as acc. dev. in the series, when we see the Neinhart scene the argument for the yes is now weaker.

We could consider the Ikusa-Tsunagi part as an outlier and Natsu is comparable to Spriggan level characters in Base, or we consider the Neinhart part as the outlier (among other possible explanations) and dismiss Base Natsu being Spriggan level.

There are three options:

  • Natsu used FDKM without naming the attack.
  • It's an outlier.
  • Power of Friendship.
While I agree that Natsu is always fired up with emotions I wouldn't scale him to an attack he cannot use regularly.

This is an example: Hades is beating Natsu badly, and Natsu's attacks are completely useless, but then he gains a PoF boost and beat Hades in one strike. We shouldn't scale his strongest output to his regular output, because that's only when he's heated the most.
 
Base Natsu still has hurt people and is comparable to Spriggan level characters, that would make him High 7-A, and once again, what's the oppositions take on what Tier he would be if not High 7-A
 
Like it was explained in the Gildarts' CRT before, make someone nosebleed doesn't require a lot, so you don't need to be comparable to make something like that.

I remember a calc with 7-B result of Natsu's roar against the alvarez soldiers. Dunno who made it tho. That's a good start IF the High 7-A is rejected.
 
Ugh, just when I thought it was all settled, I think the real issue is that Hiro Hyped the Spriggans so much and then had FDKM Natsu One-Shot a Spriggan, which basically means that Natsu being even the slightest bit afraid of Brandish is PIS
 
I am sick of being asked to comment on Fairy Tail threads and after this, under no circumstance please do not message me about them any longer. I am sick and tired of deaing with the same feats and dealing with the same scaling arguments over and over again and is seems that every week there is a new FT downgrade or upgrade thread and it's tiresome. Nor do I want to get into FT scaling drama again as I always end up coming out bitter along with certain people who just irritate me. Overall it's just an annoyance.

My main issue is that we always treat PoF attacks as some super move in which it is not all the time. Giving a friendship speech before an attack =/= Enhanced by Emotions. If Natsu has hurt people comparable to Spriggan consistently + one shot a Spriggan, then he should scale from my perspective. This just seems more like the Spriggan being hyped up to only being not as strong a FKDM. Bad writing that can easily be dealt with. Overall, I do not care what you decide and do not care for this mess any longer.
 
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