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Do not strawman me. Also, we do have feats of Base Momoshiki and Kinshiki being 5-C, it's just that with the Kages scaling, the best thing to assume is that they are both Unknown.
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Base Momoshiki and Kinshiki downgrade
- Thread starter DuDE01010
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Ah, my bad then.
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So your saying Kaguya never came to Earth, ate it's god fruit and then never merged with the tree?
Her coming to Earth with a rinnesharingan still doesn't change the fact that she still ate Earth's god fruit and then later went on to merge with it. So even if she had a rinnesharingan before coming to Earth still doesn't matter.
Except for the fact that the Earth's Juubi turned into the god tree, just like Isshiki was planning to do to his own seedling.
So an army of white Zetsu who are individually equal to fodder ninja being able to take on supposed 5C characters isn't a bad feat for them? ok lol.
So what your saying is pre prime Kaguya + army of fodders = Momoshiki + Kinshiki. Nice.
Once again your ignoring context here. Kaguya before merging with the tree feared the duo, so even if the duo are stronger than post fruit Kaguya it still wont make them 5C nor does it make them stronger than prime Kaguya.
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Just a question, but even after she got revived in the war arc, she still wanted to get back her chakra to finish making her army. So doesn't this mean that even after she merged with the tree, she feared the duo?
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- #245
As well as
- Shikamaru restraining both by himself
- Momoshiki running away from Draui and Gaara
- Chojuro dodging Kinshiki's attacks
- Kinshiki not being able to dodge Kurotusuki
More consistent feats over one fight like Shin Uchiha or it becomes inconsistent like Urashiki.
Done via his jutsu absorption and multiplied release, which would have its own sperate 5C tier.
7A kages and Shikamaru in a decade becoming 5C because of a time skip is an anti feat in itself or are you suggesting the kages are stronger than kaguya now?
Might guy trained for decades and with 8 gates still couldn't kill a 6A character.
Boruto makes it clear Kara's ninja tech and powerups that originate from the Otsutsuki makes you 5C. The kages are neither.
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His shadow style is strong
and Sasuke.
Not "attacks", a single attack and Kinshiki was charging from some distance, when they got to close range Chojuro got destroyed.
You left out the part that she appeared out of nowhere and caught him off guard while he was focused on Chojuro.
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- #247
Just showing you why its a bad idea to scale characters based off their last names.
The only consistent 5C feat is Momoshiki through his absorption and release (which i've agreed to). Kinshiki's would be outliers or inconsistent like Shin and Urashiki.
I've agreed to this (and I will edit my OP, if necessary, to reflect it).
She wanted everyones chakra because she believed it all belonged to her. I don't recall her specifically mentioning she wanted to recreate her army.
Also to note, it doesn't matter if even this version of Kaguya feared them, for all she knows Momoshiki absorbed countless solar systems worth of planets and became an 'Otsustsuki god' that was depicted in chapter 55. I also need to reiterate how an army of white Zetsu, who can literally be nuked from space by Momoshiki, being able to fight the duo is a bad look for them.
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Didn't Shikamaru also restrain all the 5 Kage with his Shadow Style and even Base Naruto.
Also the argument "WeLL hURr TheY reSTraINed KinSHiki" is actual aids because they literally needed to offguard him with kurotsuchis punch and sasukes chidori and then use 2 types of sealing jutsu (chakra rods from chojuro which i believe block the chakra pathway(stated in novel) and kurotsuchis seal) and even then Momoshiki could casually break him out from both of those. We also see Kinshiki actually block Sasuke's attacks in that fight and punch him into the Shinju Tree so eh.
The New Gen Kage are probably stronger than their shippuden selves but definitely not something like 5C, as for the white zetsu thing Kaguya was mostly likely going to use them as canon fodder and distractions. Small powerless things no matter how fodder can be extremely annoying to deal with especially if they can shapeshift.
I'd put
Unknown, likely Moon+ for their base forms
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- #249
To go from 7C to 5C magically? I don't think so.
Sasuke was busy fighting Kinshiki with Chojuro and Kurotsuchi. Darui, Gaara and Momoshiki were already fighting at this point.
Chojuro was able to evade multiple of Kinshiki's attacks.
A supposed FTL character being caught off guard by a MHS+ appearing right in front of him an arms length away and being unable to evade her doesn't scream FTL to me. Shikamaru, another MHS+ character caught Kinshiki mid swing as well.
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Again, Shika's shadow restrained all the kage and naruto, naruto legit had to use kurama to break free.
"Multiple of Kinshikis attacks." You mean one... A single attack. While the rest was him being beat up?
Also for the Kurotsuchi thing, Kinshiki was preparing to strike and was most likely surprised.
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Post scans.
I don't remember.
They were chasing Momo without Sasuke for like 1-2 pages.
Yes.
SSB Goku getting destroyed by a regular laser is the famous example of getting caught off guard.
Go downgrade SSB.
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Which I never brought up at all, hence why I said it's a strawman.
Something we both agree on. Kinshiki is inconsistent, so he should be Unknown.
Great.
http://fanfox.net/manga/naruto/v71/c684.1/1.html#ipg14 Zetsu says they need to prepare the chakra they currently have for 'that' time. And that if they lose, their 'plan which they worked on for many years' will all be for nought.
I don't think the strength is the factor of the army, it's their sheer number, for all we know, she could just be making the army to avoid fighting them both together and try fighting them one v one instead. Also, I think there might've been a statement that the one that fought Konohamaru fought which was stronger than the Zetsu in the war arc was the closest thing to what Kaguya tried to achieve.
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I know we're already in the agreement with what we think their ratings should be, but this is not an anti-feat. If anything this not only is this Argument from Incredulity Fallacy but also Appeal to Tradition fallacy. You literally are saying they can't be 5-C because you can't believe they got that much stronger and you're saying that just cuz Gai couldn't beat a 6-A character, no one else in the future could.
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Ehh that's not an argument, first golu got shot after fighting with freiza, second he was off guard, third this inconsistency of goku getting hit by weak attacks and hurting them only happened two times in super. First after his fighting with freiza, he was exhausted and off guard, second when a bullet grazed him, he was out of his shape, fighting normal people so he lower his power to not kill them. And it's an inconsistency happened only twice times in super. Unlike momoshiki gotten tagged, hit, and even taking moderate damage from people that are way weaker and slower than him. I personally don't agree or disagree with the downgrade.
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Except Momoshiki never got hit or tagged by the Kage in base form? And never took damage.
He literally dodged and parried all of their attacks
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Oh right because that makes it fair for some laser which is fodder to even Base Goku to hit SSB, the dude is in quadrillions FTL and he got hit by possibly Rel+ laser.
Oh right, it's not like Kurotsuchi appeared out of nowhere while Kinshiki was beating Chojuro
Dude, I don't know if we both watched the same Super but SSB was matched by a bunch of weak characters throughout Super, Krillin matched SSB Kamehameha and Goku was serious. And even 17 somehow matched SSB, and the excuse for that is "I trained", seriously? You trained and you are now Universal somehow? Ok, Kage trained and also jumped tiers, makes sense?
17 matching SSB makes 0 sense, people accepted it. Kage could exist around Momoshiki and Kinshiki "Lmfao, Kinshiki and Momoshiki are fodders". Different treatment for two almost identical cases.
I am not saying Kage are 5-C, but by DBS logic you used they are.
Momoshiki was never damaged by Kage, only Sasuke and Naruto managed to do something, if there are feats of others damaging him, then post those, I don't remember any.
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Large sections of his body, especially his chest, was being twisted apart before he reached Boruto, and he had a long way to go.
Would be smoother if there weren't denials that Momoshiki and Kinshiki have bad low showings.
It is more that the Kages have the capability to damage him, and would have if Momoshiki wasn't constantly trying to run away.
The Kage are obviously comparable in speed, and Darui/Gaara had Momoshiki on the backfoot and running away even though he had a sword exchange with Darui which would allow him to judge his strength. Gaara and Darui also have statements where they imply that they are strong enough to damage him with physical attacks.
Gaara is able to block Fused Momoshiki's punch, which further affirms comparability in physicals.
The movie novelization has these off-screen section of the fight:
| Gaara’s sand was stretching towards Momoshiki’s feet. Momoshiki leapt up, avoiding the sand by a hair’s breadth. But up in the sky, Darui was lying in wait. “How to say this?” Darui said. “You’ll get destroyed at this rate, yknow.” Darui used his muscles as a bullet of mass and swooped down on Momoshiki. Momoshiki evaded this attack, as well, however this too was only a diversion. Gaara with his Absolute Defence of sand was approaching from behind them! “Don’t think that you can run away from us.” he said. “You low-grade beings!” The swing of Momoshiki’s blade was stopped and caught by Gaara’s blade of sand. [...] Momoshiki was standing his ground against his two opponents Darui and Gaara. He gatheres his chakra into a rod-like shape and defended against all the attacks from Darui’s brute strength to Gaara’s shape-shifting sand, without letting the slightest opening be breached. You could call him an expert of the highest class. “We kept you waiting!” A man yelled. As expected, the one who would break the equilibrium of this fight was going to be Naruto as usual. He was always a man of the element of surprise. |
And they thought that it is a shame that Rock Lee didn't come to show off his Taijutsu.
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He was "running away" because they were assisted by Sasuke. Those implications are irrelevant since those were made after Sasuke joined.
Momoshiki in this form is comparable to Naruto and Sasuke, Gaara is on their level now?
As for the novel, I don't care about it, it's not canon, if we use the novel Momoshiki might even get an upgrade.
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If we use the novels base momoshiki has multiple tier 4 feats so yeah don't even try to use it and the wiki thinks it is not canon
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He was running away before Sasuke or Naruto arrived. When Sasuke arrived he became cornered by a quadruplet of Garra/Darui/Naruto/Sasuke.
Feats. You sort it out.
The novel is explicitly include in the official timeline, and there is statement that Boruto is canon to Naruto regardless of its format. I agree that some parts of the novel/movie got retconned though.
From what I've read, this is just a case of bad translation. The term "Planet" and "Star" have the same word in Japanese, which leads to a common mistranlation error as differentiation is context-dependent.
As far as we know, by default stars and other non-living inanimate objects don't generate/store Chakra, and it is consistent for Ōtsutsuki to absorb the Chakra of planets.
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No its actually not a bad translation and that isn't the main feat
The Feats Are Momoshikis Dimensional Creation (Parralel to the main world so at least 4-A), Momoshikis Supernova and Momoshiki absorbing all the energy in his dimension and outside of it (Easily tier 4 for absorbing millions-billions of stars of energy)
and Stars do store Chakra Toneri proved that by absorbing enough to planet bust from a star
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Yeah, I think we can keep the novel discussion for some other time.
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Yeah let's not use the novel unless we want Momoshiki to pop up at Multi-Solar System
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Why is the more recent translation on the right a bad translation then?
If draining an unknown amount of Chakra from a constructed parallel dimension of unknown size is all it takes, then we might as well upgrade Obito to Tier 3.
Toneri in his unstable form was absorbing sunlight; that is not the same as stars storing Chakra. At most you can say that sunlight has natural energy, and even then the sunlight was burning Toneri to death.
PrinceofPein
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This is a feat for the kages if anything they have been training for this day, or simply outlier. Shikamaru shadows are that strong they bind, there was not one instance they didn't.
Uhhmmm I'm sure lee, minato and kakashi are not as strong as madara before they could contribute to the fight that ensued, and yes if anything it's a feat for them or outliers
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Both say the same thing lol
Why is the more recent translation on the right a bad translation then?
Parralel dimension unknown size what are you serious
You just said Toneri absorbed The Suns Energy so do you concede on that sure natural energy is still equivalent to chakra
PrinceofPein
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Uhhmmm with his shadow style, it restrain not damage lmao
Scans of this?
Yes a feat that will increase the speed tier of the kages and shikamaru not reduce the rating of someone that blitzed an FTL character, its as simple as this lmao
The_Alxhemist
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When did I ever say she never came to Earth lmfao. My point is she didn't eat a fruit on earth, but merely merged herself with the seed.
You need a living Otsutsuki as a sacrifice to plant and earth a fruit. An option which wasn't available for her, so she opted for the power of a seed. You can't deny that most of her power comes mainly from the Juubi.
No, it never did. Unless you're using filler ofc and even then Amado's explanation clearly shows the process can't work unless you have a sacrifice.
No, the fodder army was most probably there so she could sneak attack like she did Isshiki and Teen Naruto
This is all you bud
Kaguya created her army after merging with the seed. Bottom line is that post seed Kaguya feared Momoshiki.
The_Alxhemist
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Why mention Tobi lmao? His situation has no relevance to Momoshiki's. Bottom line is in Momoshiki's world, we see multiple stars in the far distance and a planet to boot.
Why is the more recent translation on the right a bad translation then?
If draining an unknown amount of Chakra from a constructed parallel dimension of unknown size is all it takes, then we might as well upgrade Obito to Tier 3.
Toneri was absorbing chakra not sunlight and no it wasn't burning him, what happened was he absorbed more than he could handle.
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Not according to the many people who were confused by the older translation.
Parallel means existing at the same time as an other dimension. Without further context (such as the dimension being an alternative timeline to a universe of known size), the size is unknown.
He absorbed sunlight on his surface area, which is a small amount of the energy produced by the sun. Sunlight having Natural Energy is speculative and never stated. Natural Energy is not equivalent to Chakra.
Tobi created a dimension, similar to how Isshiki created a dimension.
Momoshiki's world is somewhere he BFR'd Naruto to, in a similar way to Kaguya's dimensions. It has a god tree, so it was supposedly inhabited by living beings. There is no evidence that it is something Momoshiki created or that it is the exact dimension he created.
Can you give quotes?
Would it be possible to harmonize Hagoromo's narration with Boruto lore by Earth having an abandoned god tree for some reason? The Boruto anime showed Momoshiki and Kinshiki on a planet with multiple god trees.
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Nah it literally is the exact same the context is there you just need to use your head for it
False Parralel means the exact same
It is though and you literally conceded right here it says he absorbed it now you think he only absorbed the light that hit him when he literally absorbed stuff from outside of his dimension
You have conceded here you openly admit that toneri absorbed energy from the sun yet you are complaining when Momoshiki is stated to do the same
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Look, if you think Naruto and Sasuke can be in the same tier regardless if they got weaker from teen selves, meaning 5-C, then can we agree that Fused Momoshiki, at max strength, is also 5-C? This thread will basically be over. If not, your only argument would be that Naruto and Sasuke were drained so much of their chakra that they dropped like five whole tiers, which is a huge reach. At most, they lost like half their chakra or something.
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"Exact same dimension"?
My position is the exact same as it was; Momoshiki absorbed an unknown amount of Chakra from a dimension of an unknown size. Toneri absorbed rays of sunlight and used this to boost his Chakra.
I am not aware that Momoshiki is stated to absorb energy from the sun, source?
I would prefer a downgrade, followed by an unknown tier for Momoshiki/Kinshiki in a similar way to Urashiki; that is what I think. But if there is a conclusion that Ten Tails Kaguya > Isshiki, with Fused Momoshiki being in the same tier, then I would be satisfied.
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Same Size, Close in hyperspace
First of all him absorbing all the energy in the timespace and needing to absorb energy from beyond it is enough to qualify but lets go into more depth
-Toneri an Otsutsuki is shown to be able to absorb a stars energy
-Momoshiki in the novels is stated to absorb a stars chakra no this is not a mistranslation its specifically talking about the people living around the star later
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The wiki does not accept that all parallel dimensions have the same size by definition. Where did you get this from?
Quote that he absorbed all the energy in the timespace? Draining chakra from multiple sources does not mean that one or more source is completly exhausted
Absorbing energy from sunlight does not mean much. Even plants do it.
Nope, it is a mistranslation. Even people in the Elemental Nations live around a star; this does not tell us anything new.
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I thought we already came to an agreement that Base Momoshiki and Kinshiki should be Unknown, why is Fused Momoshiki being debated all of a sudden?
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Wasn't under the impression that there was an agreement. If so then I am with application + closing the thread.
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Yeah, even Damage agreed to Unknown for Base Momoshiki physically and Kinshiki. We were just waiting to see arguments for that rating specifically, and then you know the rest.
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Well this also has showings in the canon anime to have multiple stars in the background
Why would he absorb some from outside his dimension where it is much much harder then let me guess you don't have a reason
I guess plants can absorb planet busting energy then no he literally absorbed the solar energy in the form of chakra
I don't think you understand what it says Momoshiki was absorbing the chakra of the star and as a result the life around it would die
The_Alxhemist
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Yea no. Tobi's eye created a space that can't even be compared to how vast the ones Õtsutsuki create. I don't think it's been confirmed Isshiki created his own dimension yet.
I thought the God tree on Momoshiki's planet was created via Hachibi's chakra and no it's pretty evident he created that dimension and the one that was connected to Boruto's karma.
I would paste the images if I could but I don't know my way around that.
I don't see how that's possible.
Yea and it's best to assume they've all gotten eaten all the planet had to offer
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