Base Momoshiki and Kinshiki downgrade

[LordTracer]

War Arc naruto and Sasuke are still 5-C

Not with KCM and EMS.

 

[theultimate5105]

Not with KCM and EMS.

She kept fighting with them so obviously she scales
I just want to see if I can argue this

 

[LordTracer]

You probably could if you really tried, but it’s a lot harder with the War Arc than New Era

 

[Bernkastelll]

Sakura hurt Kaguya, so, she scales

 

[Star_King_Demon_Lord]

Sakura hurt Kaguya, so, she scales

 

[DuDE01010]

So Himawari and upwards become 5C through scaling?

 

[SupremeNiva]

Seems make sense to me, agree for now

 

[DuDE01010]

Bump

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Thought about this scaling chain?

Kaguya ≥ War Arc Naruto & Sasuke > Isshiki > Jigen > Adult Naruto & Sasuke > Fused Momoshiki

Of course, this is based on Kaguya severly damaging Isshiki.

Notice that full power Isshiki has a non-clean injury implying pre-Fruit and pre-Juubi Kaguya has the AP to physically damage Isshiki, and Isshiki ran out of energy implying that a somewhat prolonged fight took place.

Also, Kaguya could very plausibly fear Otsutsuki even if she knows that they are much weaker because they have a thing for absorbing power from each other; so they can hit her with a hax that steals her power/Chakra.

 

[Darkvie123]

I have to disagree here

 

[RanaProGamer]

Can't we just accept that the characters (referring to the Otsutsuki, Naruto and Sasuke only) are the very least the same tier? It does nothing for this thread if we debate who's stronger.

 

[theultimate5105]

Thought about this scaling chain?

Kaguya ≥ War Arc Naruto & Sasuke > Isshiki > Jigen > Adult Naruto & Sasuke > Fused Momoshiki

Of course, this is based on Kaguya severly damaging Isshiki.

Notice that full power Isshiki has a non-clean injury implying pre-Fruit and pre-Juubi Kaguya has the AP to physically damage Isshiki, and Isshiki ran out of energy implying that a somewhat prolonged fight took place.

Also, Kaguya could very plausibly fear Otsutsuki even if she knows that they are much weaker because they have a thing for absorbing power from each other; so they can hit her with a hax that steals her power/Chakra.

People are still using this it literally says caught off guard in that same scan I have debunked this so many times I have lost count

 

[RanaProGamer]

In any case, the best conclusion in my opinion is to make Base Momoshiki and Kinshiki Unknown in terms of both AP and Speed, with Base Momoshiki still keeping 5-C with ninjutsu. And I think we can possibly give some of the New Kage Unknown with Ninjutsu as well since they damaged and restrained Kinshiki. Especially since we did the same for Base Jigen damaging Base Naruto who is Unknown.

 

[theultimate5105]

They should both still scale above Toneri who has a statement of calling them gods which he doesn't do with other otsutsuki members making it more likely to be related to power

 

[RanaProGamer]

They should both still scale above Toneri who has a statement of calling them gods which he doesn't do with other otsutsuki members making it more likely to be related to power

Hmmm, but wouldn't that be referring to Base Toneri who is also Unknown?

 

[theultimate5105]

Hmmm, but wouldn't that be referring to Base Toneri who is also Unknown?

Toneri knows the tenseigans powers and he had them previously
Also another thing Urashiki states they saw it all then refrenced events in the last

 

[Galvino]

Notice that full power Isshiki has a non-clean injury implying pre-Fruit and pre-Juubi Kaguya has the AP to physically damage Isshiki,

Isshiki was caught off guard and we don't know if it was a hax related attack or not.

and Isshiki ran out of energy implying that a somewhat prolonged fight took place.

All the scan said was that Isshiki was so damaged that he was about to die and thus was too weakened to implant karma. Doesn't mean it was long fight at all.

Also, Kaguya could very plausibly fear Otsutsuki even if she knows that they are much weaker because they have a thing for absorbing power from each other; so they can hit her with a hax that steals her power/Chakra.

If Kaguya is so much stronger according to your scaling chain, then it would just be an instant stomp for her, especially since she has her own haxes as well. She should be able to just absorb their energy too, she has energy absorption on her profile. This narrative you're pushing that Naruto and Sasuke are weaker than their teen selves isn't strong enough and already goes against the actual narrative of the story itself.

 

[theultimate5105]

Here is a scaling chain that makes sense with the narritive
Fused Momoshiki>Base Momoshiki (He knew everything about the time kaguya was earth and said he could beat her, She said in her scroll that she would need a army to fight him, Momoshiki also has statements from cannon novels that he is stronger, Momoshiki has eaten numerous god trees and she has eaten one, )>Kaguya

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

I have to disagree here

Feel free to attach reasoning.

Can't we just accept that the characters (referring to the Otsutsuki, Naruto and Sasuke only) are the very least the same tier? It does nothing for this thread if we debate who's stronger.

The scaling chain allows them to remain in the same tier. They would just be a bit weaker due to having less Sage chakra, which allowed Naruto to form TSBs and restore organs with the Sun Seal, and for Sasuke to produce black Senjutsu Chidori.

People are still using this it literally says caught off guard in that same scan I have debunked this so many times I have lost count

BoS Naruto and Sasuke catching Zabuza off guard doesn't mean that they are strong enough to rip him in half, and leave him out of energy and powerless to fight back.

Kaguya caught Naruto off guard, and she didn't rip him in half. Sasuke caught Isshiki off guard, and he didn't rip him in half. etc.

 

[RanaProGamer]

The scaling chain allows them to remain in the same tier. They would just be a bit weaker due to having less Sage chakra, which allowed Naruto to form TSBs and restore organs with the Sun Seal, and for Sasuke to produce black Senjutsu Chidori.

Wait, what proof is there that Naruto has lesser Sage chakra? Absolutely nowhere was this ever implied or even stated. Just cuz they don't show it doesn't mean they can't do it.

BoS Naruto and Sasuke catching Zabuza off guard doesn't mean that they are strong enough to rip him in half, and leave him out of energy and powerless to fight back.

Kaguya caught Naruto off guard, and she didn't rip him in half. Sasuke caught Isshiki off guard, and he didn't rip him in half. etc.

So does that mean that Shippuden Naruto does scale above Kaguya since he ripped her arm off?

 

[theultimate5105]

Feel free to attach reasoning.


The scaling chain allows them to remain in the same tier. They would just be a bit weaker due to having less Sage chakra, which allowed Naruto to form TSBs and restore organs with the Sun Seal, and for Sasuke to produce black Senjutsu Chidori.

Yeah implied or stated nowhere

BoS Naruto and Sasuke catching Zabuza off guard doesn't mean that they are strong enough to rip him in half, and leave him out of energy and powerless to fight back.

Kaguya caught Naruto off guard, and she didn't rip him in half. Sasuke caught Isshiki off guard, and he didn't rip him in half. etc.

Dura neg is a thing

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Isshiki was caught off guard and we don't know if it was a hax related attack or not.

Isshiki's bones and spine are not disintegrated. It appears to not be hax.

All the scan said was that Isshiki was so damaged that he was about to die and thus was too weakened to implant karma. Doesn't mean it was long fight at all.

Here is Madara and Obito being damaged. This does not mean that they instantly ran out of energy.

If Kaguya is so much stronger according to your scaling chain, then it would just be an instant stomp for her, especially since she has her own haxes as well. She should be able to just absorb their energy too, she has energy absorption on her profile. This narrative you're pushing that Naruto and Sasuke are weaker than their teen selves isn't strong enough and already goes against the actual narrative of the story itself.

This assumes that they don't absorb her power/Chakra first, which is not certain even if Kaguya wasn't paranoid/over-cautious.

Wait, what proof is there that Naruto has lesser Sage chakra? Absolutely nowhere was this ever implied or even stated. Just cuz they don't show it doesn't mean they can't do it.

The Sun Seal used to heal Might Guy and Kakashi returned to Hagoromo. If they never use it then that means that they have less tools in their arsenal.

So does that mean that Shippuden Naruto does scale above Kaguya since he ripped her arm off?

It means that Naruto's Chakra claw was physically comparable to Kaguya, yes.

Dura neg is a thing

Isshiki's spine was not dura negged.

 

[theultimate5105]

Isshiki's bones and spine are not disintegrated. It appears to not be hax.

and how does that stop it from being hax

Here is Madara and Obito being damaged. This does not mean that they instantly ran out of energy.

different conditions

This assumes that they don't absorb her power/Chakra first, which is not certain even if Kaguya wasn't paranoid/over-cautious.

She also has absorbtion and how would they do it if she could outhax them

The Sun Seal used to heal Might Guy and Kakashi returned to Hagoromo. If they never use it then that means that they have less tools in their arsenal.

less tools /=/less power

Isshiki's spine was not dura negged.

Doesn't need to be

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

and how does that stop it from being hax

There are no signs of disintegration, as there is no clean wound.

different conditions

The way Isshiki is lifting Jigen while floating with his lower body missing looks similar. Where did Isshiki's energy go?

She also has absorbtion and how would they do it if she could outhax them

If they activate the hax first, they win. Still a risk to be afraid of since it is common in the clan.
Very reasonable compared to the quote that Hagoromo feared the Ten Tails.

less tools /=/less power

These tools gave them more power.

Doesn't need to be

So his spine is suddenly immune to durability negation unlike the rest of his body?

 

[RanaProGamer]

Here is Madara and Obito being damaged. This does not mean that they instantly ran out of energy.

Being damaged and being near death state are 2 different things, hell Sasuke had tons of chakra yet when he got stabbed and was dying, which Karin responded by saying his chakra almost disappeared.

The Sun Seal used to heal Might Guy and Kakashi returned to Hagoromo. If they never use it then that means that they have less tools in their arsenal.

You'd have to prove that it made them weaker. Also, the Sun Seal is still shown on Naruto's hand in the manga.

It means that Naruto's Chakra claw was physically comparable to Kaguya, yes.

So, that means that Kaguya and Isshiki are physically comparable as well.

 

[theultimate5105]

There are no signs of disintegration, as there is no clean wound.

again why does it need to be ash bones which by the way he could cut off before it spreads she has multiple others like TSBs which conveinently also destroy chakra

The way Isshiki is lifting Jigen while floating with his lower body missing looks similar. Where did Isshiki's energy go?

Gave a explanation above and his body which contained it was mostly gone

If they activate the hax first, they win. Still a risk to be afraid of since it is common in the clan.
Very reasonable compared to the quote that Hagoromo feared the Ten Tails.

because it would destroy the world he made and you say she is superior in everything so they wouldn't

These tools gave them more power.

unproven

So his spine is suddenly immune to durability negation unlike the rest of his body?

Ash bones isn't her only dura neg she has biological absorbtion, TSBs and others its not like ash bones would even need to touch it as Isshiki could cut off his body parts to stop the spread

 

[Galvino]

The way Isshiki is lifting Jigen while floating with his lower body missing looks similar. Where did Isshiki's energy go?

He had enough energy to perform his jutsu to shrink in Jigen's ear. So he still has energy. What you're not getting is that all the scan is saying is that he doesn't have enough energy to implant karma.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Being damaged and being near death state are 2 different things, hell Sasuke had tons of chakra yet when he got stabbed and was dying, which Karin responded by saying his chakra almost disappeared.

Sasuke was unconscious for an extended period of time. Isshiki just had to absorb a bit more Chakra, like he did from Jigen's body.

You'd have to prove that it made them weaker. Also, the Sun Seal is still shown on Naruto's hand in the manga.

A Truth Seeking Orb Rasenshuriken is superior to a normal Rasenshuriken. A black Senjutsu Chidori is superior to normal Chidori.

???

So, that means that Kaguya and Isshiki are physically comparable as well.

More or less. As I said, I have no issue with them all being in the same tier.

---

again why does it need to be ash bones which by the way he could cut off before it spreads she has multiple others like TSBs which conveinently also destroy chakra

Cut off the All-Killing Ash Bone?

Pre-Juubi Kaguya so no TSB, and would have the same problem as the Ash Bones.

Gave a explanation above and his body which contained it was mostly gone

He was able to give Jigen a Karma Seal after he absorbed his Chakra, so his body can still contain the Chakra neccessrry for a Karma Seal.

because it would destroy the world he made and you say she is superior in everything so they wouldn't

If Hogoromo is superior than the Ten Tails, then why couldn't he stop the Ten Tails before it does anything? /s
They are likely to try, and they might succeed. Kaguya doesn't need to be crazed and Chakra-obsessed (which she is) to be worried.

unproven

A Truth Seeking Orb Rasenshuriken is superior to a normal Rasenshuriken. A black Senjutsu Chidori is superior to normal Chidori.

Ash bones isn't her only dura neg she has biological absorbtion, TSBs and others its not like ash bones would even need to touch it as Isshiki could cut off his body parts to stop the spread

It seems that Isshiki forgot to cut off his spine!

---

He had enough energy to perform his jutsu to shrink in Jigen's ear. So he still has energy. What you're not getting is that all the scan is saying is that he doesn't have enough energy to implant karma.

Which begs the question: where did that energy go? Momoshiki had enough energy to implant a Karma on Boruto while he is being disintegrated.

 

[Omimi]

The Sun Seal used to heal Might Guy and Kakashi returned to Hagoromo.

It was Yin-yang realese not sun seal(From Databook)

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

the Sun Seal is still shown on Naruto's hand in the manga.

I'm pretty sure that was an art error, especially since we saw them lose these seals as they returned to Hagoromo during the original manga.

 

[theultimate5105]

Sasuke was unconscious for an extended period of time. Isshiki just had to absorb a bit more Chakra, like he did from Jigen's body.


A Truth Seeking Orb Rasenshuriken is superior to a normal Rasenshuriken. A black Senjutsu Chidori is superior to normal Chidori

He still has senjutsu and his TSBs aren't tied to his overall power unless you think the Naruto who cut kaguyas arm off was weaker then the naruto that was even with Jubbidara

Cut off the All-Killing Ash Bone?

Pre-Juubi Kaguya so no TSB, and would have the same problem as the Ash Bones.

and why would she not have them oh is it your headcanon that says she doesn't have them

He was able to give Jigen a Karma Seal after he absorbed his Chakra, so his body can still contain the Chakra neccessrry for a Karma Seal.


If Hogoromo is superior than the Ten Tails, then why couldn't he stop the Ten Tails before it does anything? /s
They are likely to try, and they might succeed. Kaguya doesn't need to be crazed and Chakra-obsessed (which she is) to

Oh so I guess the ten tails just would do nothing while hagoromo attacked it

It seems that Isshiki forgot to cut off his spine!

---

I don't think you understand how it works
cuts off a arm that it hits it stops spreading

Which begs the question: where did that energy go? Momoshiki had enough energy to implant a Karma on Boruto while he is being disintegrated.

Again First of all Momoshiki had just gotten a chakra boost second of all different people different showings

You are ignoring your own scan where it says he got caught of guard which btw doesn't need Dura Neg its just another nail in the coffin Incoming but other people didn't cut people in half when they caught them off guard when most of those people were not trying to kill

 

[RanaProGamer]

I'm pretty sure that was an art error, especially since we saw them lose these seals as they returned to Hagoromo during the original manga.

Not really, we actually see them in 2 more panels. Also since Boruto came, later on, we can just assume Naruto gained it again at a later point.

 

[RanaProGamer]

A Truth Seeking Orb Rasenshuriken is superior to a normal Rasenshuriken. A black Senjutsu Chidori is superior to normal Chidori.

Which I never denied, if anything, those don't equate to his overall power at all, especially since his chakra arm did more damage than all of his Rasenshuriken combined to Kaguya (which he can still use since we see him use Lava Rasenshuriken).

???

Manga has 3 panels that show that Naruto has his Sun seal. Meaning he likely got it back later on.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Not really, we actually see them in 2 more panels. Also since Boruto came, later on, we can just assume Naruto gained it again at a later point.

It was an art error that was corrected in the Volume release.

 

[Galvino]

Which begs the question: where did that energy go? Momoshiki had enough energy to implant a Karma on Boruto while he is being disintegrated.

Show the exact panel where Momoshiki implanted the karma and was also being disintegrated at the same exact time. That moment is too unclear of when exactly Momoshiki did it. Your argument only works if we see Momoshiki has more than half of his body gone and still implanting the karma.

 

[DuDE01010]

Can't we just accept that the characters (referring to the Otsutsuki, Naruto and Sasuke only) are the very least the same tier? It does nothing for this thread if we debate who's stronger.

Just because they have the same last name doesn't mean they should all be in the same tier when feats say otherwise. Everyone with the last name Senju aren't on the same tier as Hashirama.

Here is a scaling chain that makes sense with the narritive
Fused Momoshiki>Base Momoshiki (He knew everything about the time kaguya was earth and said he could beat her, She said in her scroll that she would need a army to fight him, Momoshiki also has statements from cannon novels that he is stronger, Momoshiki has eaten numerous god trees and she has eaten one, )>Kaguya

Nothing states Momoshiki was stronger than prime Kaguya. All the statements were either referring to 'base' Kaguya or Kaguya after eating the god fruit.

Pre god tree merged Kagaya relying on a white Zetsu army to fight Momoshiki + Kinshiki (and Urashiki in the anime version) is a worse showing for the trio. I don't think it needs any reminding on how weak the white Zetsu are? Kaguya never feared individual Otsutsukis, she only feared multiple coming for her simultaneously.

 

[The_Alxhemist]

Nothing states Momoshiki was stronger than prime Kaguya. All the statements were either referring to 'base' Kaguya or Kaguya after eating the god fruit.

The notion of Kaguya having a "Pre Fruit" self on Earth isn't even canon to begin with. And even if you somehow still try to deny it was filler content, the Boruto Manga already shows her hologram sporting a Rinnesharingan on her head and its clear by Amado's statement Kaguya had no way to make a sacrifice to get a fruit.

That seems to be the case especially considering most of Kaguya's power came from the Juubi which according to Amado is a seed and not a fruit

Pre god tree merged Kagaya relying on a white Zetsu army to fight Momoshiki + Kinshiki (and Urashiki in the anime version) is a worse showing for the trio. I don't think it needs any reminding on how weak the white Zetsu are? Kaguya never feared individual Otsutsukis, she only feared multiple coming for her simultaneously.

.
It's definitely not a worse showing for the trio but rather for Kaguya. Cause the novel literally says "they are a duo she can't face without an army" and every other media source for the Boruto series that I can think of imply Momoshiki >>>> Kaguya. Also she obviously feared Momoshiki and Kinshiki, only both of their names was written down in her scroll that Sasuke got.

 

[Arcker123]

How did this go on for 3 pages?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Just because they have the same last name doesn't mean they should all be in the same tier when feats say otherwise. Everyone with the last name Senju aren't on the same tier as Hashirama.


Nothing states Momoshiki was stronger than prime Kaguya. All the statements were either referring to 'base' Kaguya or Kaguya after eating the god fruit.

Pre god tree merged Kagaya relying on a white Zetsu army to fight Momoshiki + Kinshiki (and Urashiki in the anime version) is a worse showing for the trio. I don't think it needs any reminding on how weak the white Zetsu are? Kaguya never feared individual Otsutsukis, she only feared multiple coming for her simultaneously.

Your whole argument is base off the fact that the kages restricted kinshiki with sasuke help??
What about the other feat that they scale to?? E.g. kinshiki blitzing sasuke? Momoshiki knocking out naruto?
Idg

Do you have an anti feat for the kages ninjutsu used to restrict him?


And then again power scaling went through the roof in boruto seeing in the last chapters there are multiple cyborgs that scale above jigen, (yes same jigen that ragdolled naruto and sasuke going all out)

 

[PrinceofPein]

When they say the current naruto is weaker than the one that fought kaguya it makes me cringe, if anything he is way stronger.

Reasons
1. While he was unable to manipulate chakra, sick and on life support he could dodge light speed attacks as opposed to his 16 years old counterpart that I think needs bsm/sosp to enter the LS/FTL tier
2. A naruto on life support and unable to use chakra head butt a meteor in space, a meteor that a 200km long pillar of wood, sand, earth from kakashi, yamato, gaara e.t.c. could not stop. Naruto that was on life support and unable to use chakra head butts this casually with no damage.

I dont need to tell you that base naruto is an healthy naruto that can use chakra, not a dying one unable to use chakra

Sick naruto(the one that performed all this feat) <<<<<<<< base naruto <<<<< sage mode <<<<<kcm <<<<<<< bsm <<<<< sosp <<<<< baryon


This is why it makes me feel somehow when they think naruto did not get any stronger