Barbatos Respect Thread

[Elizio33]

And what's about "At least 2-A likely higher"?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

And what's about "At least 2-A likely higher"?

"At least 2-A like High 1-B" would make more sense

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I have likely read a much greater number of Marvel and DC comics than you have, and as such I have lots of experience with writers constantly contradicting each other to ridiculous degrees. I cannot magically wipe away that experience leading to a difference in perspective.

Grant Morrison established in Multiversity that the DC multiverse is organised into mini-multiverse clusters of 52 universes each, yes, but he had not begun to explore that aspect, and within this story only the 52 regular universes were shown on the map as being at risk.

 

[Antvasima]

And do you really think that I have the time and energy to go around looking for specific scans given the sheer massive amount of tasks that I constantly handle in this wiki?

I am just concerned about that we will give characters ridiculously exaggerated statistics.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

>The numbers argument

I knew your were going to use this the moment I began arguing here, but I'm sorry Ant, this is a fallacy. You routinely show misinformation and ignorance (Or perhaps just bad memory) over basic things both Marvel and DC, despite the high number of storylines you say you've read.

By this logic lustitaprime should be considered the most reliable Transformers guy, and we know that is objectively false.

I also had a friend who was really into Shin Megami Tensei and had played virtually every single game available in English, but he was really bad when it came to discussing it's cosmology and power.

>Mini-clusters of 52 universes

>there are infinite clusters

Thus there are infinite universes.

Ant, the map also has higher dimensional realms such as Limbo and the Monitor Sphere, both of which are High 1-B.

 

[Antvasima]

>The higher powers would have fought.

Ant, this isn't Marvel. The Endless don't fight people.

Secondly, yes they wanted to use the Anti-Monitor as a bomb to destroy the Dark Multiverse, which dwarfs the entirely of the DC Multiverse like an ocean dwarfs a drop of water.

Is it an outlier? Yes, I think so. Did it somehow not happen because of that? No. All I'm asking is that you accept it as a fact.

In regards to regular superhero characters making a difference, comics do this. The original Secret Wars had low-level characters routinely being an "inconvenience" to the Beyonder.

Well, I have a hard time understanding why all of the higher powers would just blindly walk towards destruction if they were actively threatened.

In addition, the focus here was entirely on the forger creating a much greater number of parallel universes than the main DC multiverse. As such, I think that it makes more sense to interpret the Dark Multiverse as being a collection of possibly infinite universes that the Anti-Monitor was going to possibly blow up. It would also fit much better with his established power level, and the focus of the original Crisis.

 

[Ryukama]

If the Dark Multiverse is described as being larger than the main multiverse, the main multiverse has been established as High 1-B, and they've even shown the High 1-B multiverse map, then obviously the Dark Multiverse has to be High 1-B.

Unless in this story they outright say that the Dark Multiverse isn't High 1-B or that these characters can only destroy a finite number of 4-D universes, then there is no reason to not treat this as High 1-B. The fact that they didn't restate that the multiverse is High 1-B or the assumption that the author intent might not've been for this to be a High 1-B feat doesn't matter.

 

[Antvasima]

>The numbers argument

I knew your were going to use this the moment I began arguing here, but I'm sorry Ant, this is a fallacy. You routinely show misinformation and ignorance (Or perhaps just bad memory) over basic things both Marvel and DC, despite the high number of storylines you say you've read.

By this logic lustitaprime should be considered the most reliable Transformers guy, and we know that is objectively false.

I also had a friend who was really into Shin Megami Tensei and had played virtually every single game available in English, but he was really bad when it came to discussing it's cosmology and power.

>Mini-clusters of 52 universes

>there are infinite clusters

Thus there are infinite universes.

Ant, the map also has higher dimensional realms such as Limbo and the Monitor Sphere, both of which are High 1-B.

1) My memory is not the best, given the sheer amount of stories to keep track of, but I have read several thousand Marvel and DC Comics over the years, and have genuinely encountered a lot of ridiculously extreme contradictions. That is my background experience, and I am afraid that it is not likely to change.

2) The problem is the the story itself strictly focused on the forging of parallel universes and the threat that they posed to the main 52 ones. As such we end up with a massive contradiction.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Ant, one infinity can be bigger than another. And the way they describe the Dark Multiverse seems to imply something like that, how with literally every single dark thought by every sentient being in the whole multiverse created things in the Dark Multiverse.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, a 2-A construct might be reasonable. I just have a very hard time accepting that the entire focus of the story would be the forging of nightmarish parallel universes, without any mention of higher dimensions involved.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I have to go take care of the daily backlog of monitoring that there has been no vandalism or bad edits for the last 15 hours, so I will likely not have much time and energy left for dealing with this.

However, I do think that we should be very careful before slapping such massive ratings on characters defeated by regular superheroes.

 

[Xantospoc]

Just to know, how was Barbatos beaten? I have avoided DC Metal like a plague, it sounded far too stupid and Batman-centric

 

[Antvasima]

Hawkgirl defeated him by piercing his body with the 10th metal used by the New Gods. Element X I think that it was called.

See here:

http://***************.to/Comic/Dark-Nights-Metal

 

[Xantospoc]

After reading it, I am quite sure that

(1) the Element X is basically a 'plot device'. Like Samurai Jack's sword, it must be a durabilty null against Barbatos and his dark universe, given they also moped the floor with the Dark Night who by the virtue of plot were previously ragdolling them

(2) Hawkman was not what defeated him (although injuried him, I guess THIS was an outlier or again, a case of Jack hurting Aku) , but apparently they wishing him away VERY MUCH. They proceeded to basically wish for the Source to come in and smash the wall. That had to count for something. It was a LITERAL Deus Ex Machina that defeated Barbatos

(3) The story is still terrible

 

[Xantospoc]

Also, Calling it now: Doctor Manhattan is going to turn to be High 1B

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the equipment of the New Gods should definitely not be able to affect a High 1-B entity in any way or form.

2-A seems more within reasonable plot induced stupidity limits, and it would also follows the established scale for the Anti-Monitor, and fit the strict focus on forging universes within this storyline.

 

[LuckyCharmingStar]

I agreed with matt and ryukama the dark multiverse should be high 1-B.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I honestly agree with Matthew here. It honestly wouldn't make sense for them to just use Grant Morrison's Multiverse cosmology map then not for the Dark Multiverse to be an Infinite Dimensional construct as well. The Dark Multiverse is literally treated as the "dark side" of the DC Multiverse. If it is truly so, it would warrant a High 1-B argument due to like being a direct parallel.

 

[LuckyCharmingStar]

Even the Monitor Sphere floats inside the dark monitor

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I just find it extremely contradictory that the entire focus of the storyline was the forging of alternative universes, and that Barbatos himself was defeated so easily, along with that his power was supposed to be comparable to The Monitor and Anti-Monitor, who are both just "At least Low 2-C" in their base.

 

[Antvasima]

Perhaps we could reconcile these contradiction by interpreting it as the Dark Multiverse existing mostly indepently from Barbatos, and that he strictly created the universes inside of it?

 

[Elizio33]

Well, there's always the fact that Barbatos filled the dark multiverse with dark endings. I still think Barbatos should be At least 2-A

 

[Antvasima]

Yes nightmarish alternative universes.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Well, Motherbox ( Which was fused w/ Cyborg and retconned to be made of Element X ) was stated in a scan as being capable of defeating Barbatos. So... It isn't that much of a plot hole.

I also agree with Matt & Ryu. Using the Cosmology map heavily implies High 1-B . The Endless being involved and threatened implies High 1-B. Anti-Monitor's portrayal in this comic implies High 1-B. The Dark Monitor's portrayal implies High 1-B. Almost everything implies it .

 

[Elizio33]

And there's also the fact the dark multiverse is much bigger than the matter multiverse

 

[Elizio33]

I don't know if he should be High 1-B or not but At least 2-A seems appropriate for this feat.

 

[Antvasima]

I am fine with the entirety of the Dark Multiverse likely being High 1-B, but Barbatos himself was simply stated to have created a massive amount of nightmarish universes, and was easily defeated in a single strike by Hawkgirl wielding a tool of the New Gods. This is a massive contradiction for such an extremely high tier.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, I don't think that it was ever proven that the Anti-Monitor could destroy the dark multiverse in its entirety, but even if it was, it would be a massive outlier given his previous showings.

 

[Elizio33]

The tenth metal is not supposed to be their weakness?

 

[-BANLK-]

Maybe we can rate Barbatos as High 1-B and put a note on his profile which says "Due to DC's bullshit writing".

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

@Elizio.... No. They never implied it as a weakness.

@Ant Well he supposedly caused a "Pan-Dimensional Upheaval" according to the Source, and according to the Monitors destroyed every higher-dimension sans one. The Monitors wrre commented as a whole tp be the only ones capable of manipulating The Bleed as well. I have all of it on my Docs page... Though reasonably didn't mention it for... Obvious reasons. I can understand if you don't want to see it though.

 

[Antvasima]

@Seed

I do not understand what you are referring to.

 

[Antvasima]

@Elizio

A High 1-B entity should be ridiculously beyond anything that the New Gods can create.

 

[Elizio33]

I suppose you're right. What's about multiverse+ level? Or Low 2-C, Likely 2-A?

 

[Antvasima]

I would be fine with "At least 2-B, likely 2-A", or something like that. It is just that High 1-B is such an extremely high rating. It would make him comparable to The Beyonder.

 

[Elizio33]

I agree with that

 

[TheSandman31]

I also agree with that

 

[Elizio33]

And he should also have Multiversal+ level with his scream

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose so, in case there are an infinite amount of universes in the dark multiverse, and not just an unfathomably high finite number.

 

[RinkakuKagune]

Well not to be off topic but I'm glad to see things have cooled down. Yeah I agree with these things if the Forger was said to create the Dark Multiverse.