BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

[Deagonx]

Okay, if you aren't making that claim then I suppose we have no disagreement? My stance was simply that the evidence was insufficient. I needn't prove the alternative in order to take that stance, that's not how burden of proof works.

 

[Arcker123]

I still have a problem with your.... less than honest debate tactics that were on full display here.

Okay, if you aren't making that claim then I suppose we have no disagreement? My stance was simply that the evidence was insufficient. I needn't prove the alternative in order to take that stance, that's not how burden of proof works.

Again, you're just lying here, you explicitly made the claim it was figurative and I quoted it in a previous message. The fact you couldn't prove that is what I was initially arguing/joking about. You didn't initially make a possibly claim, you made a certain one, then retreated to this argument when I refuted it.

This is the dishonesty I pointed out. See Motte and Bailey tactics.

 

[Deagonx]

I still have a problem with your.... less than honest debate tactics that were on full display here.

Again, you're just lying here, you explicitly made the claim it was figurative and I quoted it in a previous message. The fact you couldn't prove that is what I was initially arguing/joking about. You didn't initially make a possibly claim, you made a certain one, then retreated to this argument when I refuted it.

This is the dishonesty I pointed out. See Motte and Bailey tactics.

Irony, thy name is man. Accusing someone of the very thing you are doing is an interesting approach, to be sure.

The first thing I said was:

I needn't prove it was flowery language (although it certainly seemed that way to me and others I spoke to, given Gerard's manner of speaking), the absence of evidence of it being literal is itself a sufficient reason to remove the ability

I'm going to be generous here and assume that you aren't characterizing the phrase "seemed that way to me" as a "certain claim" because you saw the word "certainly" in front of it. Especially considering that this was in the middle of a sentence where I took the stance that my stance was there was a lack of evidence for it being literal. But you are free to rebuff that generosity.

 

[Arcker123]

I needn't prove it was flowery language (although it certainly seemed that way to me and others I spoke to, given Gerard's manner of speaking)

Deagon. This is a claim. I'm not sure if you're aware of that.

You saying you don't have to prove that was the criticism. So unless you want to say you don't actually believe it's figurative and you never argued for that, the criticism holds.

 

[Deagonx]

Deagon. This is a claim. I'm not sure if you're aware of that.

I am, but I think a misunderstanding of English grammar has led you to believe a different claim was made than what I actually said.

Try to identify the difference between these two statements:

1. That statement is figurative.
2. That statement seemed figurative to me.

I suppose you could claim both have a burden of proof, but if you are demanding proof for statement 2, you're basically asking me to prove my internal mind state of having that impression. The second statement doesn't incur a burden of proof that it is figurative. It's really odd that you would claim that.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

(although it certainly seemed that way to me and others I spoke to, given Gerard's manner of speaking)

this is probably because you spoke to people who aleady typically agree with you

 

[Arcker123]

I am, but I think a misunderstanding of English grammar has led you to believe a different claim was made than what I actually said.

Try to identify the difference between these two statements:

1. That statement is figurative.
2. That statement seemed figurative to me.

Dude you can't accuse me of that and then think this is an intelligent argument.

These statements express the exact same claim. The only difference is 2. includes a description of your confidence in your claim, but that has no bearing on the claim itself.

I suppose you could claim both have a burden of proof, but if you are demanding proof for statement 2, you're basically asking me to prove my internal mind state of having that impression. The second statement doesn't incur a burden of proof that it is figurative. It's really odd that you would claim that.

No this is ridiculous.

You are making a claim, the second one just says you believe it's figurative, but implies you have a lower degree of confidence in that claim. Any statement of positive belief in a proposition is a claim, which both statements are. You are creating distinctions without difference.

You're attempts of weaseling out of your burden of proof would be funny if they weren't dishonest.

 

[Crobatman44]

We have to wait for Cour 3 to adapt Gerard scenes

You really think we'll get to the Askin and Gerard fights in cour 3?

 

[Deagonx]

These statements express the exact same claim.

F.

this is probably because you spoke to people who aleady typically agree with you

Probably. Though those people were staff members, so thats kinda how it works.

It isn't as though the whole "literal vs figurative" thing is unique to this scenario, it's a pretty common thing in CRTs because it's often not possible to prove whether a sentence is figurative or literal, so it ends up just being a battle of interpretations as above. To me, Gerards braggadocio and the eye-roll demeanor with which his manner of speaking gave me the impression it wasn't meant to be taken literally.

 

[Arcker123]

F.

Concession accepted Ig.

Why is it that every argument you get into boils down into the same dialougue tree?

1. You make some ridiculous claim that you can't justify. Typically in a manner that could only amount to trolling or rage bait
2. Some poor guy attempts to challenge you to defend your claim
3. You employ some ridiculous argument that doesn't address the objection
4. Stonewall
5. Whatever nonsense ensues for whatever 3 page debate you get into
6. ????
7. Profit

Damage still remains king of rage bait tbh. This is an obvious joke FYI.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

You really think we'll get to the Askin and Gerard fights in cour 3?

maybe? we dont know since cour 3 and 4 are gonna have a lot of OG material

 

[BleachHollow]

 

[Deagonx]

Concession accepted Ig.

Writing headcanon, lol.

There comes a point where someone takes a stance so ridiculous it warrants little further discussion. In this case, the notion that describing an impression is the same as making a positive claim and incurs the same level of proof is egregious enough that I don't see how any progress could be made, you could only reach that conclusion if you were choosing to be unreasonable.

You make some ridiculous claim that you can't justify.

I don't think it's typical to ask someone to prove that something seemed a certain way to them. Usually you just sort of take them on their word that they had that impression, but yeah if your whole point was "you can't prove you had that impression" beyond me just telling you, then sure I guess we agree?

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

what it all boils down to.

 

[Saibotsan]

 

[Arcker123]

Writing headcanon, lol.

There comes a point where someone takes a stance so ridiculous it warrants little further discussion. In this case, the notion that describing an impression is the same as making a positive claim and incurs the same level of proof is egregious enough that I don't see how any progress could be made, you could only reach that conclusion if you were choosing to be unreasonable.

Dude, you just don't understand how claims work. Stop debating Semantics when you don't understand how words work.

What you described in the OP was a varying level of certainty you hold towards a claim, but that has no bearing on the claim or the fact you hold it. You still need to prove that claim. Both statements express the claim it's figurative, and that claim needs to be defended. You're making a positive claim in both, and you fail to show a distinction between the statements.

Your inability to refute the claim makes you concede the debate. Especially when you give some cope response that is unearned, when you show you don't understand anything about what's being said. Your beliefs/seemings express claims that need to be justified.

I don't think it's typical to ask someone to prove that something seemed a certain way to them. Usually you just sort of take them on their word that they had that impression, but yeah if your whole point was "you can't prove you had that impression" beyond me just telling you, then sure I guess we agree?

Uh yes tf? You claim you believe something and I ask why you believe it.

The fact you have an impression isn't in dispute, i'm asking you why you hold that impression, which is perfectly reasonable to ask.

 

[Valeska24]

 

[Excellence616]

You really think we'll get to the Askin and Gerard fights in cour 3?

Possibly.

 

[zylieo]

I am, but I think a misunderstanding of English grammar has led you to believe a different claim was made than what I actually said.

Why would Japanese grammar align 100% with English grammar?

 

[Excellence616]

Let me join you

 

[Arcker123]

The fact that it seems to be true to him just means he has more evidence for one claim over at bare minimum (and being frankly over charitable to Deagon). This is a claim you're being asked to justify and your efforts to evade that show remarkable dishonesty.

Why do people consistently engage with this?

 

[Deagonx]

Both statements express the claim it's figurative, and that claim needs to be defended. You're making a positive claim in both, and you fail to show a distinction between the statements.

Right, hence the issue. If you are not able to understand the difference between "is" and "seems" then there's not much else we can do here. It's an incredible simple thing that could only be rejected by someone choosing to be unreasonable. Amplified further by the really silly claim about "conceding." Sorry, I'd prefer not to serve as your English teacher. The fact that your stance has boiled down to "claiming to have an impression of a thing is the same as claiming that your impression is correct" is sufficient for me.

The fact you have an impression isn't in dispute, i'm asking you why you hold that impression, which is perfectly reasonable to ask.

Sure, and I'm happy to explain why I got that impression (which I did above), but an impression is not a positive claim, it's a sensory experience. Perhaps this is just a vocabulary issue?

impression - an effect produced in the mind by a stimulus; sensation: he gave the impression of wanting to help
seem - give the impression or sensation of being something or having a particular quality: he seemed upset.

Having an impression is a sensory experience, it's how something appears to be in your mind, but not everything is as it seems and the term implies a high level of subjectivity and uncertainty. Again, this is very simple English. It's really odd to need to explain this.

 

[Deagonx]

Why would Japanese grammar align 100% with English grammar?

My point about grammar isn't about the scans from Bleach, it is about Arcker's misunderstanding of my words which were written in English.

 

[AnimesFreak2]

"We love casting spells"

 

[Arcker123]

Right, hence the issue. If you are not able to understand the difference between "is" and "seems" then there's not much else we can do here. It's an incredible simple thing that could only be rejected by someone choosing to be unreasonable. Amplified further by the really silly claim about "conceding." Sorry, I'd prefer not to serve as your English teacher.

What do you think having an impression something is true means?

What does it mean to say that "It seems to be the case the sky is green?" Is that a claim that cannot be asked to be justified? You can't ask someone to justify their beliefs if it's an impression?

You conceded by pretentiously noping from the debate which I explained to no rebuttal. You're a clown, and you do not have a better understanding of English than me you pretentious fool.

The fact that your stance has boiled down to "claiming to have an impression of a thing is the same as claiming that your impression is correct" is sufficient for me

I'm asking you to justify why you hold the impression. I can ask you to justify your beliefs.

At least when Damage says some ridiculous nonsense like "We ignore feat all the time" he can at least defend it. You're not as good at being as dishonest as Damage.

Sure, and I'm happy to explain why I got that impression (which I did above), but an impression is not a positive claim, it's a sensory experience. Perhaps this is just a vocabulary issue?

Thank you for conceding I am correct.

If you concede that you can explain why you have an impression, than I am correct. You're struggling to understand basic concepts and you accidentally conceded twice.

impression - an effect produced in the mind by a stimulus; sensation: he gave the impression of wanting to help
seem - give the impression or sensation of being something or having a particular quality: he seemed upset.

Having an impression is a sensory experience, it's how something appears to be in your mind, but not everything is as it seems and the term implies a high level of subjectivity and uncertainty. Again, this is very simple English. It's really odd to need to explain this.

Never made a claim against this.

You fail to understand my arguments and are just agreeing with me.

 

[Excellence616]

These arguments won't change a thing since the Manga is Secondary Canon and The Anime is Primary Canon. The anime as of Cour 2 is adding and cutting scenes, there is the possibility that the TYBW anime would go further with Gerard abilities and explain his Conceptual abilities. If the anime does that i see no reason for anyone to debunk it.
Even if the scene is cut from the anime, we can still use the manga along with anything show Concept Manipulation in the anime or just reuse the manga with a well structured argument


I saw when Deagox said that Zaraki falling into despair is Fear Manipulation, Like Fear Manipulation on The Kenpachi Zaraki?. In Bleach, Zaraki has never show fear iirc.
But my point is, we should just stop arguing please.

 

[Deagonx]

What do you think having an impression something is true means?

No need to ask, I provided the definition:
impression - an effect produced in the mind by a stimulus; sensation: he gave the impression of wanting to help.

An impression is a sense you get about something.

What does it mean to say that "It seems to be the case the sky is green?" Is that a claim that cannot be asked to be justified? You can't ask someone to justify their beliefs if it's an impression?

It means that the sky appears to be green to you. It is not a claim that the sky is green, it is a claim of how it looks. For instance, if one had some sort of ocular disorder which cause the sky to look green to them, then it would be true that the sky seems green to them. It would not be true that the sky is green. An statement about one's impression is not a statement about objective reality, it is about one's sensory experience.

Hopefully that is helpful to improving your understanding. Most of the rest of your comment oscillates between an overt temper tantrum and you claiming certain things were concessions to feel better, so I don't think they deserve a substantive response from me.

 

[Arcker123]

Hopefully that is helpful to improving your understanding. Most of the rest of your comment oscillates between an overt temper tantrum and you claiming certain things were concessions to feel better, so I don't think they deserve a substantive response from me.

 

[AppleLord]

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

:usopplaugh:

 

[Arcker123]

A pseudo intellectual came in here acting smug so he got clowned by everyone. Then so high on his on copium he tries to argue with us, but then conceded twice and still somehow of himself as smart.

So yeah, cognitive dissonance/

 

[Deagonx]

I'm holding English class, ig.

 

[AnimesFreak2]

It's joever for the TBYW Anime

Director wants to use AI for animation

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Honestly if they can find a way to utilize AI such that it lightens the load on the animators, that could potentially be huge for the work environment of animators.

 

[zylieo]

AI isn’t even bad when it’s used correctly

 

[Excellence616]

Honestly if they can find a way to utilize AI such that it lightens the load on the animators, that could potentially be huge for the work environment of animators.

True we don't want to have anything that will cause issues as MAPPA

 

[Lynieryz]

 

[BleachHollow]

So when are we getting Tier 0 Bleach ?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Never

 

[Valeska24]

So when are we getting Tier 0 Bleach ?

Bro, what, are you kidding? Did you really ask that question?

Of course, at cour 4