BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

[Arc7Kuroi]

Yhwach is quite arrogant. There are plenty of cases in fiction where characters should be using certain abilities or methods to win but they don't for some reason or another.

Yhwach started the fight against Ichigo not using the Almighty even though it would have been better just to activate it from the beginning.

Could also be that Yama's Bankai is that powerful, seeing how in the TYBW Yhwach opted to steal and seal away Yama's Bankai as opposed to fight it. Although, we don't know anything about the encounter 1000 years ago so there's no concrete explanation to how Yama won.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Did Shunsui hold back against Stark?

They held back against each other.

 

[Purgy]

@Damage3245 Ichigo has plot armor, why would Yamamoto have that in an offscreen fight that happened in a flashback? Also there's a huge difference between the Yhwach that didn't use The Almighty against Ichigo and the one that fought Yamamoto, Yhwach is powerful enough when he fought Ichigo to where he didn't need to immediately use The Almighty.

Lastly, assuming we go with your hypothetical scenario, you're basically saying Yhwach is foolish enough to not only not use The Almighty against Yamamoto and pretty much lose because of it, but then to also do the exact same thing against Ichigo.

Doesn't seem very likely to me.

 

[Damage3245]

@Purgy; I didn't say that's what happened, just that it is a possible explanation. As Arc7Kuroi said; we don't know exactly what went down in their fight other than Yama used his Bankai against him and Yama ended up defeated.

It is likely that he didn't use it though, seeing as Squad Zero had no idea about the Almighty.

 

[Warren_Valion]

What do you guys think about changing the title of the thread every 5 pages or so?

 

[Damage3245]

I think we should actually retitle the thread to just be "Bleach General Discussion" instead of relying on numbered versions anymore.

 

[Ovy7]

I think the new forum supports dozens/tens of pages and seeing how there are 100 comments/page, this thread alone could last for quite a while. So I agree with Damage's proposal to rename the thread.

 

[Zoro21043]

there no longer is a limit of 500 messages ?

 

[Ovy7]

No, I don't think so.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Purgy; I didn't say that's what happened, just that it is a possible explanation. As Arc7Kuroi said; we don't know exactly what went down in their fight other than Yama used his Bankai against him and Yama ended up defeated.

It is likely that he didn't use it though, seeing as Squad Zero had no idea about the Almighty.

With what Jugo says about the Almighty going out of control if Yhwach isn't strong enough, likely means that Yhwach got weakened to a degree where he couldn't make full use of the Almighty in the past. How? Nobody knows, but Jugo knows that the Almighty goes out of control if Yhwach isn't at full strength. So for whatever reason Yhwach wasn't at full strength when he lost to Bankai Yama. If Yhwach can't use the Almighty unless he's at full power, that would explain how Yama won and why Squad Zero knows so little.

 

[TraODWaterLaw]

Are all the vizards being upgarded to 6a ?

Also shouldn't Kensei be High 6A ?

Question: If the god tiers really get upgraded to Low 2C will that mean Askin has tier 4 hax or will he get upgraded to High 3A, in that case will Urahara, Yoruichi and Grimmjow and people who scale to them be upgraded to High 3A too ?

 

[Warren_Valion]

Why?

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Why?

Why indeed.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Are all the vizards being upgarded to 6a ?

Also shouldn't Kensei be High 6A ?

Question: If the god tiers really get upgraded to Low 2C will that mean Askin has tier 4 hax or will he get upgraded to High 3A, in that case will Urahara, Yoruichi and Grimmjow and people who scale to them be upgraded to High 3A too ?

Askin doesn't scale to TS Ichigo, so no if the god tiers get upgraded Askin is not getting upgraded with them

 

[AppleLord]

Askin doesn't scale to TS Ichigo, so no if the god tiers get upgraded Askin is not getting upgraded with them

Why not? Askin's powers work on TS Ichigo while he himself admitted that Bankai Urahara was too strong for him to use his powers on. He had to compress his hax into a single organ for the effect to work. That means Bankai Urahara scales above TS Ichigo. TS Horn Ichigo and TB Ichigo are a different case all together.

 

[Purgy]

When will people give up with the Askin thing, we've gone over that like 5 or 6 times

No Bankai Urahara is nowhere near Ichigo, not even remotely close, his Bankai hasn't even shown to give him a stat amp either so you might as well be saying regular Kisuke is > TS Ichigo.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Why not? Askin's powers work on TS Ichigo while he himself admitted that Bankai Urahara was too strong for him to use his powers on. He had to compress his hax into a single organ for the effect to work. That means Bankai Urahara scales above TS Ichigo. TS Horn Ichigo and TB Ichigo are a different case all together.

What Askin meant by "Kisuke is too strong for my ability to work" is that Kisuke's incalculable methods were enough to overcome Askin's base ability.

Kisuke knew of Askin's ability and thus had a plan to counter it. Askin realizing that deemed Kisuke an opponent worthy of needing his Holy Form to deal with.

Ichigo was seemingly caught off guard by the ability of someone he wasn't aware of. Grimmjow was got by Askin's ability, yet Grimmjow goes on to one shot Askin. Askin never physically damages Ichigo, so he doesn't scale to Ichigo.

IIRC Askin made reiatsu poisonous or something like that and Ichigo having arguable the highest levels of reiatsu in the series would be undoubtedly dropped if his entire source of power was made toxic to him.

 

[Makstar05]

Did Yhwach freeze the Wandenreich or was it like that due to being lifted over a huge distanc??

 

[CloudStrife00T]

Isn't Almighty useless against raw power based abilities ?

 

[AppleLord]

What Askin meant by "Kisuke is too strong for my ability to work" is that Kisuke's incalculable methods were enough to overcome Askin's base ability.

Kisuke knew of Askin's ability and thus had a plan to counter it. Askin realizing that deemed Kisuke an opponent worthy of needing his Holy Form to deal with.

Ichigo was seemingly caught off guard by the ability of someone he wasn't aware of. Grimmjow was got by Askin's ability, yet Grimmjow goes on to one shot Askin. Askin never physically damages Ichigo, so he doesn't scale to Ichigo.

IIRC Askin made reiatsu poisonous or something like that and Ichigo having arguable the highest levels of reiatsu in the series would be undoubtedly dropped if his entire source of power was made toxic to him.

I don't remember him saying it was because of his incalculable methods. Askin was afraid to go physical with Urahara after he amp his arm strength with his bankai. Using that logic Askin solos every in existence that requires air to breath and don't have counters to fix that. Can he solo Najimi Ajimu since tiers are not boundaries to him? Askin is at least stronger than Aizen was in FKT Arc given it force Urahara to go bankai without a second thought.

 

[AppleLord]

Isn't Almighty useless against raw power based abilities ?

Yes.

 

[CloudStrife00T]

So how is it useful against Yamamoto's ability ? One more thing when Yama and Lyod? fought. Yama acted like this is the first time he showed Yhwach his bankai and all his abilities. Does that mean 1000 Years ago he defeated yhwach without using his bankai ?

Using Almighty makes Yhwach sleep for 1000 years. Is it possible he used his almighty and selected a future which was most beneficial for him ?
So he went and got killed by Yama on purpose ?
His main goal of waiting 1000 years wasn't so that he could defeat Yama but to take ichigo's powers ?

After all from his monologue it sounded like he also gave ichigo some kind of plot armor via his almighty.

He couldn't use his almighty till then and his almighty doesn't work on part so the only time he can use it and manipulate ichigo was 1000 years ago.

 

[Ovrhide]

Isn't Almighty useless against raw power based abilities ?

This question is kinda wonky.

almighty isn’t useless against raw power based abilities. But it doesn’t neg them like he does abilities.

it’s useful in a sense that if he can react fast enough Before it hits him, he can make any physical blow miss him through his future manipulation.

 

[Tyri456]

Almighty negates abilities, that is why it should be supposedly "weak" against raw power, but he can deal with it thanks to precognition, destroying the source of the power as he did with Ichigo, resurrect and many other things.
Ichigo basically is only raw power and he can be argued even stronger than Yhwach, yet he get completely stomped only because yhwach activated it.
So it is quite wrong say it is weak against it, when actually it is the opposite, just raw power is completely useless withouts abilities to counter it.

 

[CloudStrife00T]

You are thinking too much. All I meant by that sentence is that Almighty can't outright negate raw power.
It can negate hax but it can't outright negate getsuga tenshou.
Of course I know it can break zanpakuto's but if getsuga tenshow Ichigo fired wasn't from zanpakuto but could fire it like cero then Yhwach won't be able to cut ichigo into two right ?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I don't remember him saying it was because of his incalculable methods. Askin was afraid to go physical with Urahara after he amp his arm strength with his bankai. Using that logic Askin solos every in existence that requires air to breath and don't have counters to fix that. Can he solo Najimi Ajimu since tiers are not boundaries to him? Askin is at least stronger than Aizen was in FKT Arc given it force Urahara to go bankai without a second thought.

Being called a strong opponent doesn’t always inherently refer to their “power level” it’s called reading in between the lines and using context. You can’t take everything hyper literally, especially when Kubo’s work requires a lot of in between the line reading. Also, it’s been established that Ichigo wasn’t going all out until he showed up to fight Yhwach. Meaning Askin dropped a nerfed TS Ichigo.

Askin does not scale to TS Ichigo and never will.

 

[Purgy]

What makes you think it can't powernull Getsuga Tensho? We see Ichigo use it twice against Yhwach;

1. The Gran Rey Getsuga Tensho, but Yhwach wasn't using The Almighty against Ichigo at this time
2. When Aizen is messing with Yhwach with KS and Ichigo cuts him in half from behind with a Getsuga Tensho slash

In none of these circumstances did he "fail" to powernull it, rather he just never had the opportunity to either because he wasn't using The Almighty, or he literally couldn't see the Getsuga Tensho due to Aizen's KS.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I think what Cloud is getting at is this, if you threw a punch at Yhwach he couldn’t negate your punch. Yhwach could select a future in which you don’t throw that specific punch, or he can dodge it with precog and whatnot, but he doesn’t negate the punch like he could negate Ichibe’s Bankai abilities.

So if I’m interpreting Cloud correctly here, a “weakness” to Yhwach would be being so much stronger and faster than Yhwach that regardless of what Yhwach does he always gets one shot (barring Yhwach can’t kill you with hax).

 

[Tyri456]

You are thinking too much. All I meant by that sentence is that Almighty can't outright negate raw power.
It can negate hax but it can't outright negate getsuga tenshou.
Of course I know it can break zanpakuto's but if getsuga tenshow Ichigo fired wasn't from zanpakuto but could fire it like cero then Yhwach won't be able to cut ichigo into two right ?

But the point of the discussion was him against Yamamoto...

Either ways, yes, he can just snap his head off by thinking with Almighty before he lauch the cero, he did the same thing with Renji for example, he literally detached his arm from his body just by looking at it.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Imagine how cool it would’ve been if Ichigo’s Bankai made him so fast that he could attack faster than Yhwach could think. This way Yhwach couldn’t take the initiative with the Almighty since Ichigo would be able to attack him before he could activate his ability, like Ichigo moved faster than Yhwach could view the future, so by the time Yhwach perceived Ichigo’s movements in the future that was already in the past. That would’ve been so dope.

 

[AppleLord]

You are thinking too much. All I meant by that sentence is that Almighty can't outright negate raw power.
It can negate hax but it can't outright negate getsuga tenshou.
Of course I know it can break zanpakuto's but if getsuga tenshow Ichigo fired wasn't from zanpakuto but could fire it like cero then Yhwach won't be able to cut ichigo into two right ?

Now that I think about it. Yhwach can't negate physical attacks, but he can stop them from happening, and he did it twice. Or thrice.

1. The first time was when Renji attacked him with Zabimaru. Yhwach used the Almighty to chose a point in time where he already broke it with his hands without having to face Renji directly.

2. The second time was when Aizen used KS to create a Renji and Ichigo that attacked him from behind. Yhwach used the Almighty and the attack never went through.

3. The third time was when Aizen disguised as Renji jumped on Yhwach from behind. Yhwach's Almighty change the scenario to where Aizen as Renji lost the attacking arm.

 

[CloudStrife00T]

@tyri

But the point of the discussion was him against Yamamoto...

Either ways, yes, he can just snap his head off by thinking with Almighty before he lauch the cero, he did the same thing with Renji for example, he literally detached his arm from his body just by looking at it.

Bro, How hard is it for you to understand that I am talking about Physical body and physical strength.

Can he snap Ichigo's horn ? Why ? it is not a weapon. It is part of his body.

Can he snap ulquiorra's arm or finger because that is the way he uses his Cero ?

From what we have seen is that Almighty cannot directly interfere with physical body. He cannot just kill people in the future. He can attack them but cannot directly kill them. If the opponent is too weak then his attacks can kill them.

If someone punches him then he can't make their arm disappear via Almighty.
So I said it is weak against raw power.
and in this case raw power would obviously be more than Yhwach's power.

 

[AppleLord]

@tyri


Bro, How hard is it for you to understand that I am talking about Physical body and physical strength.

Can he snap Ichigo's horn ? Why ? it is not a weapon. It is part of his body.

Can he snap ulquiorra's arm or finger because that is the way he uses his Cero ?

From what we have seen is that Almighty cannot directly interfere with physical body. He cannot just kill people in the future. He can attack them but cannot directly kill them. If the opponent is too weak then his attacks can kill them.

If someone punches him then he can't make their arm disappear via Almighty.
So I said it is weak against raw power.
and in this case raw power would obviously be more than Yhwach's power.

He killed Ichibei and took Ichigo's horn with Almighty?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@tyri


Bro, How hard is it for you to understand that I am talking about Physical body and physical strength.

Can he snap Ichigo's horn ? Why ? it is not a weapon. It is part of his body.

Can he snap ulquiorra's arm or finger because that is the way he uses his Cero ?

From what we have seen is that Almighty cannot directly interfere with physical body. He cannot just kill people in the future. He can attack them but cannot directly kill them. If the opponent is too weak then his attacks can kill them.

If someone punches him then he can't make their arm disappear via Almighty.
So I said it is weak against raw power.
and in this case raw power would obviously be more than Yhwach's power.

I mean we kind of are shown that the Almighty can directly affect the body, it takes off Renji's arm and he did use the Almighty to snap off Ichigo's horn. I don't know if I'm understanding what you're saying here.

If someone punches him and Yhwach is relative to them, he could take their arm off and make the punch disappear that way.

If someone punches Yhwach and Yhwach is so vastly beneath them in power then Yhwach likely wouldn't be able to rip off their arm.

It's not really weak against raw power, because technically anyone would be weak against some massively stronger than them. For example, Subsitute Shinigami Ichigo would get obliterated by God Aizen but that doesn't make Subsitute Shinigami Ichigo weak to raw power.

That being said there is that one panel where it straight up looks like he negates Ichigo's sword slash, albeit by the time Ichigo actually arrive Yhwach was under KS, so interpreting that is wonky.

 

[CloudStrife00T]

In fact we both don't understand each other. I was wrong about the horn part. Right he broke it via Almighty but later when Yhwach takes ichigo's powers. Ichigo says that his powers were disappearing. His hollow powers mixed with his quincy power. Which is weird and I will explain why. Before that

https://**********.com/read-online/Bleach-chapter-683-page-4.html

If you look clearly then you can see Left hand of renji and the third hand are synchronized. Even when they are broken/cut they are same. It is highly possible that because Yhwach cut his bankai in the future and via synchronization his hand was also cut in the future.

So that cannot be used as the proof that Yhwach's Almighty can interfere with physical body directly.

As for ichigo's horn it directly says that his source of hollow powers that were mixed with his quincy powers were disappearing. So Again that was an external power.

Maybe that is why an ichigo who had lost most of his external powers and just had his shinigami powers was more useful.
His statement that "the blade is me" would make more sense.

Since now that everything external is gone the only thing that is left is The blade and Ichigo as a singular being.

That also explains that why Ichigo's Bankai wasn't Broken again. Just the external guard was broken.

 

[AppleLord]

In fact we both don't understand each other. I was wrong about the horn part. Right he broke it via Almighty but later when Yhwach takes ichigo's powers. Ichigo says that his powers were disappearing. His hollow powers mixed with his quincy power. Which is weird and I will explain why. Before that

https://**********.com/read-online/Bleach-chapter-683-page-4.html

If you look clearly then you can see Left hand of renji and the third hand are synchronized. Even when they are broken/cut they are same. It is highly possible that because Yhwach cut his bankai in the future and via synchronization his hand was also cut in the future.

So that cannot be used as the proof that Yhwach's Almighty can interfere with physical body directly.

As for ichigo's horn it directly says that his source of hollow powers that were mixed with his quincy powers were disappearing. So Again that was an external power.

Maybe that is why an ichigo who had lost most of his external powers and just had his shinigami powers was more useful.
His statement that "the blade is me" would make more sense.

Since now that everything external is gone the only thing that is left is The blade and Ichigo as a singular being.

That also explains that why Ichigo's Bankai wasn't Broken again. Just the external guard was broken.

Yhwach didn't destroyed Renji's bankai in the future. That is Aizen's arm that went flying via Almighty.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

In fact we both don't understand each other. I was wrong about the horn part. Right he broke it via Almighty but later when Yhwach takes ichigo's powers. Ichigo says that his powers were disappearing. His hollow powers mixed with his quincy power. Which is weird and I will explain why. Before that

https://**********.com/read-online/Bleach-chapter-683-page-4.html

If you look clearly then you can see Left hand of renji and the third hand are synchronized. Even when they are broken/cut they are same. It is highly possible that because Yhwach cut his bankai in the future and via synchronization his hand was also cut in the future.

So that cannot be used as the proof that Yhwach's Almighty can interfere with physical body directly.

As for ichigo's horn it directly says that his source of hollow powers that were mixed with his quincy powers were disappearing. So Again that was an external power.

Maybe that is why an ichigo who had lost most of his external powers and just had his shinigami powers was more useful.
His statement that "the blade is me" would make more sense.

Since now that everything external is gone the only thing that is left is The blade and Ichigo as a singular being.

That also explains that why Ichigo's Bankai wasn't Broken again. Just the external guard was broken.

Renji was actually Aizen though, so I don't know if you can discredit what happened with "Renji" here. In actuality Yhwach took off Aizen's arm which isn't synced with his zanpakuto, as Aizen is right handed. So, Yhwach still affected the physical body in a round about way. Albeit since Yhwach was under KS, the Almighty wasn't functioning properly to begin with, so discrediting Yhwach while he's under KS doesn't seem fair to me.

Yhwach didn't steal Ichigo's powers until after he broke Ichigo's horn too. It's not like Ichigo's powers were disappearing and then Yhwach broke the horn.

I don't think Yhwach could null the kinetic energy of Ichigo's punch per se, but I think Yhwach could rip off Ichigo's limbs through the future if he wanted to/was strong enough.

And yeah what Apple said, the fact of the matter is Yhwach ripped off Aizen's arm with the Almighty. That seems proof enough he can affect the physical body.

 

[Tyri456]

@tyri


Bro, How hard is it for you to understand that I am talking about Physical body and physical strength.

Can he snap Ichigo's horn ? Why ? it is not a weapon. It is part of his body.

Can he snap ulquiorra's arm or finger because that is the way he uses his Cero ?

From what we have seen is that Almighty cannot directly interfere with physical body. He cannot just kill people in the future. He can attack them but cannot directly kill them. If the opponent is too weak then his attacks can kill them.

If someone punches him then he can't make their arm disappear via Almighty.
So I said it is weak against raw power.
and in this case raw power would obviously be more than Yhwach's power.

How hard is for you to actually read what I wrote?

 

[CloudStrife00T]

There is something that bothers me with the whole scene. I guess I will wait for anime to elaborate.

So wait does this like give Yhwach death Manip via Almighty ?

 

[CloudStrife00T]

How hard is you to actually read what I wrote?

Very.