BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

[Tsotso]

Y’all still at it huh

I actually find it pointless since the only difference between our stances is that he thinks WoTL and SS can only refer to realms while I think they can refer to either realms or planets depending on the context of a statement.

 

[Loyd]

does anyone here think if yama stayed in bankai for too long if would've destroyed the ss universe?

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

does anyone here think if yama stayed in bankai for too long if would've destroyed the ss universe?

no, i say at most the planet but not the whole ass dimension

 

[Ovy7]

If it's 12 then its borderline moon level

It's 12, yeah. Meaning that Kurohitsugi = 2.17 Exatons * 12 for Ultra Fragor (cause 1 Fragor > Hado 90) = 26.04 Exatons

That's just 3 exatons away from Moon lvl, and Dangai Ichigo one-shotted the Ultra Fragor, plus we don't know how much stronger 1 Fragor is than the Hado, so IMO Dangai should upscale to Moon lvl, higher with Mugetsu.

Edit: Oh, and God Aizen could maybe get like "Multi Continental (his Fragor is much stronger than his Hado 90 as it damaged Dangai Ichigo), possibly Moon lvl with Ultra Fragor (It has the combined power 12 Fragors)", as the difference is so small that the Fragor just being with like 0.3 higher than the Hado 90 would make the Ultra Fragor Moon lvl, and considering that 1 Fragor burned Dangai Ichigo's arm while the Hado got bitchslaped without even harming Ichigo, then it's likely much higher than a 0.3.

 

[Ovy7]

Prolly not too different, you got the scan?

I think he's refering to this:

Ichigo: 2 pixels (1.74 m)

Stand: 106 pixels (92.22 m)

(the pixel scale isn't by me, I've found it in a calc on the wiki)

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Irrelevant point. Renji was also talking about how they need to prevent excessive influence on the souls in the WoTL.

......... bro. That what I just said in that paragraph. Imagine calling someone’s point irrelevant and then repeating that same irrelevant point back at them. Stg, get some help.

It does matter why he did. You can't just disregard the statement because disregarding its implication fits your unproven interpretation that the term WoTL could only refer to the entire realm.

Why does it matter? The only thing you have brought up is that saying WotL doesn’t help my point of WotL = dimension (it does because WotL is the name of the dimension) but you won’t even bring up how it doesn’t even support your own stance of WotL = planet in your own head canon interpretation anymore than it does mine. You are pointlessly coming back to this when it doesn’t matter in the slightest like some mouth breathing neck beard. What Renji said is the name of the dimension and if you want to say it can also be the name of the planet, go get the scan like I been asking and quit ducking your burden of proof.

This is unproven and you're just assuming your interpretation to be correct when the evidence doesn't necessarily point in that direction.

You are an honest to god clown. Where is the scan that says planet Earth = WotL? You don’t seem to be understanding that YOU are the one who made a claim that it can refer to the planet and that YOU need to prove that. Once again, I still don’t have to prove jack shit because WotL is the name of the dimension, which you already agreed to.

Do you even know what empiricism is? Go look it up and you'll see why the burden of proof is actually on you here.

Objectively false. Souls exist in Hueco Mundo, in the Garganta, Valley of Screams, SS and Hell.

My claim about all souls being on Earth doesn't need to be proven as it is what we as readers of Bleach are aware of and there is nothing in the series which suggests there are aliens in the Earth realm. My evidence is the series itself and what we are shown in the manga.

Anyone can just say “the series is my evidence” but that doesn’t mean anything. I could say sun is rainbow coloured cotton candy with a chocolate filling and that nature is my evidence but it doesn’t mean anything as that is an enormous amount of data that I “presented” that has nothing to do with my actual stance. Go get the scans that say souls only exist on earth (even though I already proved you wrong).

Because my claim is consistent with what we know while yours is essentially claiming headcanon (that there could be other souls in the realm which aren't on Earth) and then saying yOu CaN't PrOvE oThErWiSe, the burden of proof is on you, the one who's claiming things contradictory to the narrative without providing any evidence.

I don’t need to prove anything when I didn’t make a claim about that. I said you need to prove your claim which you refuse to do so I can dismiss it without evidence.

should tell you exactly what my interpretation of his statement is
There, fixed it for you.

Prove your interpretation is even a valid one like I have been asking you to do for the past day.

You admitted that if the term WoTL can only refer to the entire realms and ifall souls in the realm are on Earth, then Renji wouldn't need to say what he did. This is the quote which I am referring to:


^ You admitting it ^

Sigh. That isn’t me admitting anything, that’s me saying that even if WotL = planet is a valid interpretation, Renji saying what he did doesn’t help or go against my point anymore than it does yours because it doesn’t matter as to whether he is referring to a planet or a dimension when the terminology he used in that sentence is the name of the dimension, something that you have already agreed to. You need to go and prove that it is referring to the planet.

So now you're in this position where unless you can prove there are aliens in the Earth realm (as the burden of proof is on you as the one implying things contradictory to the narrative and our knowledge as readers), you've essentially conceded that Renji having to use the term WoTL was completely unnecessary in that instance, which points to your interpretation (that the term WoTL can only refer to the entire realms) not being correct.

Are you actually mentally ill? That potential only exists if you can objectively prove that WotL is a name for the planet, “world” should somehow be taken on its own rather than part of the collective and disprove my example that using “in” in this situation is grammatically incorrect if it refers to a planet.

Literally everything you keep trying to argue doesn’t matter until you can prove that WotL refers to the planet when it has only referred to the dimension.

 

[Loyd]

skipping the downscale problems, lets say all the captains were as strong as they were in the TYBW(before royal guard amp),
base aizen(without hogyoku) gin and tosen(no hollow) didn't defect
and the vizards(no hollow) were all still apart of the ss gang.
how would it go if the vanderiech invaded soul society with all there sternritters?
edit: yoruichi urahara Tessai r thr too

 

[Loyd]

i remember reading the TYBW for the first time and while the top espadas could relatively hold off multiple captains tiers, the sternritter showed up and decimated them
im wondering how much harder of a stomp it'd be if soul society was never challenged by ichigos crew or aizen's espada
they would do thr duty watching over ss till the sternritters showed up.

 

[Ovy7]

As far as I remember, Harribel and the others put such a good fight that Yhwach had to intervene. But I could be wrong on this.

 

[Loyd]

i can only recall yhwach no diffing not sure if she fought any sternritter prior tho

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Kenny bullies the three Ritters, loses to Royd, Yama bops Royd and dies to YeeHawbach, everyone who got slammed in canon gets slammed once more while Aizen stomps the rest of the Sternritter because Aizen >>> EoS Captain like Byakuya who solos 5 Ritters.

Assuming Aizen is a good guy, I can see him becoming Captain-Commander after this.

 

[Loyd]

kyoka's op back at it again, would everyone fall but aizen? how does he deal with the elites?

 

[Ovy7]

EoS Aizen could prob just RC everyone. But even without that, Lille gets one shotted if he starts in base, otherwise KS could probably be use to make him think he won and revert back, at which point Aizen one-shots; Askin also could get one-shotted (his DD doesn't work if he dies directly IIRC), Pernida could likely be killed with a Hado 90. Gerard is the only one which is a problem cause of his immortality, but Aizen should know some sealing Kidos (and the Reiatsu difference should make it improbable if not impossible for Gerard to escape).

 

[Tsotso]

......... bro. That what I just said in that paragraph. Imagine calling someone’s point irrelevant and then repeating that same irrelevant point back at them.

This is what you said:

AnonymousBlank:
Because he is talking about how they need to be nerfed when they come to WotL. Its right there in the scan.

This is what I said:

Renji was also talking about how they need to prevent excessive influence on the souls in the WoTL.

The two quotes are different in that you conveniently didn't mention that the term WoTL was used by Renji to refer to the location occupied by spirits. You only mentioned that they need to be nerfed but not the reason for it.

Why does it matter? The only thing you have brought up is that saying WotL doesn’t help my point of WotL = dimension (it does because WotL is the name of the dimension)

You are the one trying to claim it doesn't matter. But you haven't provided any reason for it.

The only thing you have brought up is that saying WotL doesn’t help my point of WotL = dimension (it does because WotL is the name of the dimension)

Not necessarily in every case. You haven't proven that. There are examples of WoTL being used to refer to the realm such as when Toshiro is explaining it to Ichigo, but just because it has been used that way doesn't mean it can only ever be used that way. That would be the Proof by Example Fallacy.

but you won’t even bring up how it doesn’t even support your own stance of WotL = planet in your own head canon interpretation anymore than it does mine.

It supports my point because Renji used the term WoTL to specifically refer to the place where all the spirits are, which is Earth as there is no reason to assume otherwise based on what the manga has shown us.

You are pointlessly coming back to this when it doesn’t matter in the slightest

I've already explained above why it supports my point that the term WoTL was used by Renji in that instance to refer to the planet.

What Renji said is the name of the dimension and if you want to say it can also be the name of the planet, go get the scan like I been asking and quit ducking your burden of proof.

The burden of proof is not on me but on you for reasons I've already pointed out which you've only baselessly denied.

Where is the scan that says planet Earth = WotL?

I already went over why Renji referring to Earth (the only place we've been shown to have spirits in that realm) as WoTL means it can also be used to refer to the planet.

You don’t seem to be understanding that YOU are the one who made a claim that it can refer to the planet and that YOU need to prove that.

Baseless denial of your burden of proof. All I did was point out something which goes without saying based on the information in the Bleach manga. We debate with what we know. Not what we think. That is empiricism. That is why the burden of proof is on you.
We only know about spirits in the Earth realm existing on Earth. No aliens have been introduced in Bleach.
Your scepticism to spirits only being on Earth in that realm is equivalent to you claiming that spirits exist outside of Earth in that realm, a claim which contradicts the narrative and a claim you haven't supported with anything other than saying yOu CaN't PrOvE oThErWiSe to try to deflect the burden of proof on me.
My point represents what we know and what's consistent with the information the narrative has given us, while your scepticism respresents the cognitive dissonance you are experiencing when presented with evidence contradictory to your personal interpretation.

Once again, I still don’t have to prove jack shit because WotL is the name of the dimension, which you already agreed to.

You doubting Earth as the only place where spirits exist in that realm (a baseless scepticism of what we know as readers) is the same as making the claim that spirits exist outside of Earth in that realm. A claim which you haven't supported with anything other than scepticism of the contrary.
Also, I agreed that WoTL can be used as the name of the realm but I never agreed that it can only be used to refer to that and never to the planet.

Tsotso said:
Do you even know what empiricism is? Go look it up and you'll see why the burden of proof is actually on you here.

Objectively false. Souls exist in Hueco Mundo, in the Garganta, Valley of Screams, SS and Hell.

What I said and what you replied with are two things which have nothing to do with each other. Also, souls exist on Earth as well as all humans have souls.

Anyone can just say “the series is my evidence” but that doesn’t mean anything.

In this case it does, as the series doesn't contain any information contradicting or disputing my point. All you've put up is baseless scepticism that goes against empiricism.

I could say sun is rainbow coloured cotton candy with a chocolate filling and that nature is my evidence but it doesn’t mean anything as that is an enormous amount of data that I “presented” that has nothing to do with my actual stance.

Pointless analogy that has nothing to do with my point and just shows you've misunderstood it. The series has only shown spirits existing on Earth in that realm. There is nothing in the series which could be used to dispute this. Therefore, there is no way you can make an argument against it. All you're doing is being a sceptic complaining about it not being explicitly stated that souls only exist on Earth. But without evidence to support your doubts, your argument holds no value and goes against empiricism.

Go get the scans that say souls only exist on earth (even though I already proved you wrong).

You haven't proven anything, let alone disproved my point that spirits in the Earth realm only exist on planet Earth. Anybody can point out something which isn't 100% explicitly stated and claim it's wrong because of it. But that's not how it works. You need actual evidence which disputes a point in order to argue against it. Evidence which you haven't provided.

I don’t need to prove anything when I didn’t make a claim about that.

You did. Being baselessly sceptical about a point which isn't contradicted by anything and is the most consistent with what we know is the same as claiming it isn't true.

I said you need to prove your claim which you refuse to do so I can dismiss it without evidence.

No, you can't. I've already explained why and your responses concerning that have only been things like "No, you're wrong." and "You were the one who said it first so the burden of proof is on you" which don't mean anything as scepticism isn't evidence and in this case you denying my point is equivalent to you claiming the opposite.

Prove your interpretation is even a valid one like I have been asking you to do for the past day.

It's valid because it's the only interpretation the series has shown as. We haven't seen aliens in Bleach in the Earth realm, so baselessly doubting my point like you are doing doesn't hold any objective value.

Sigh. That isn’t me admitting anything, that’s me saying that even if WotL = planet is a valid interpretation, Renji saying what he did doesn’t help or go against my point anymore than it does yours because it doesn’t matter as to whether he is referring to a planet or a dimension

It goes against your point because it doesn't make sense for Renji to refer to the planet with a term which can only refer to the entire universe (according to you, that is). He was referring to the place with all the spirits in the realm which is Earth, something you've been unable to provide disputing evidence for and have been instead trying to deflect your burden of proof while acting like baseless scepticism is an argument.

when the terminology he used in that sentence is the name of the dimension

Stating your personal interpretation as if it's a fact doesn't help you in actually proving it.

something that you have already agreed to.

I'm saying this once again, I've agreed that it can be used to refer to both the realm and the planet. But in Renji's instance it refers to the planet for reasons which you haven't debunked with actual evidence.

You need to go and prove that it is referring to the planet.

I've already explained why I don't need someone to explicitly state "When I say World of the Living, I mean the planet" or "All spirits in the realm of the World of the Living are on Earth" in order for my point to be true. Because of empiricism, Renji using the term in reference to the planet is the only objective conclusion we can draw based on the information available to us in the manga, which hasn't indicated that there are spirits outside of Earth in that realm.

That potential only exists if you can objectively prove that WotL is a name for the planet

See the point above.

“world” should somehow be taken on its own rather than part of the collective and disprove my example that using “in” in this situation is grammatically incorrect if it refers to a planet.

You've already agreed that in the world can be equivalent to on the planet. Here's the quote:

I said “in the world” can refer to on the planet

Literally everything you keep trying to argue doesn’t matter until you can prove that WotL refers to the planet when it has only referred to the dimension.

I've already explained why, due to the complete lack of actual evidence that contradicts it, Renji's statement uses the term WoTL to refer to the Earth as he uses the term to refer to where all spirits are, which is Earth due to empiricism and the series only showing us spirits on the planet in that realm.

Also, could you chill out?

Are you actually mentally ill?

Stg, get some help.

You are an honest to god clown.

mouth breathing neck beard

Because I'm not going to engage in a debate with someone who resorts to insults whenever things aren't going his way.

 

[Loyd]

ok how about pre hogyoku aizen? on that note why is his fight with askin incon?

 

[Loyd]

holy shit that updated msg

 

[Ovy7]

ok how about pre hogyoku aizen? on that note why is his fight with askin incon?

Incon? I've said that he would one-shot Askin.

As for base Aizen, probably the same as I've stated for EoS. He's still much stronger than any of the characters most of the Elites, bar Gerard, had fought, so only Gerard could win this IMO.

 

[Loyd]

i meant on his profile

 

[Ovy7]

Ah, dunno, but the thread seems to be 3 years old.

 

[Gitagon]

If it wasn’t for the novel statements, Aizen would have been powercliffed like mad with the timeskip so I honestly believe FB is already enough to be > 2nd Mask. The only way he somehow isn’t would be to say all the Captains got weaker since the Winter War.

Yeah, I love that the novel maintained Shinigami Aizen as a top tier in terms of reiatsu. And while characters like Byakuya got stronger, it is more or less their physicals and techniques that shot up, instead of everyone's reiatsu suddenly shooting up.

This sort of means the concept of Transcendence is still in play and that possibly only Ichigo, Aizen and Yhwach are at that level. Anyone else who can be scaled around Byakuya's level is still below Shinigami Aizen in reiatsu and would at most be at the peak of their race but not a Transcendent being.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Aizen + Yama on a team is OP + if Aizen never defects people may not know his true ability of KS. Not to mention Ichibe exists. The Quincies win con is Yhwach stalling until he gets his Almighty.

 

[Naeblis495]

Or just awaken the Almighty early and reap all of his Sternritters strengh,power and just solo the verse .

 

[Zezu1995]

not even , juha literally stole yamas bankai pre almighty meaning he had enough power to do so in base... if yama was their strongest i dont think he needed almighty for anyone other than ichibei

 

[Naeblis495]

Without The Almighty , he still might get ****** by Kyoka tho .

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Even with the Almighty he might get got by KS but no one would be able to hurt him with the Almighty.

 

[Naeblis495]

Only if he face Aizen before unlocking The Almighty.

If he already have Almighty activated when he meet Aizen for the first time , then the passive null will protect him from KS

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Yeah I’m saying even if it did work it wouldn’t matter once Juha gets the Almighty

 

[Naeblis495]

Indeed .
But wouldn't some hax still destroy him ? If he can't see the future properly because of KS , then some hax can affect him no ? as he can't null them if he can't see them in the future.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Maybe, idk if they would really harm him in any way, plus Aizen didn’t get to choose what Yhwach saw, so who knows how effective it would be

 

[SilentBob34]

I think he's refering to this:

Ichigo: 2 pixels (1.74 m)

Stand: 106 pixels (92.22 m)

(the pixel scale isn't by me, I've found it in a calc on the wiki)

Yes that’s the one, thank you!

 

[Naeblis495]

I'm talking about Ichibe EE kido for example , that could probably mess him up if he actually get hit with it.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Maybe

 

[Tsotso]

I wonder if Aizen could use KS on Pre-Almighty Yhwach to make him think he defeats both Aizen and Yamamoto, meanwhile the real Yama sneakily
activates Bankai and kills him.

 

[SilentBob34]

I wonder if Aizen could use KS on Pre-Almighty Yhwach to make him think he defeats both Aizen and Yamamoto, meanwhile the real Yama sneakily
activates Bankai and kills him.

I think that could actually be a good way to beat Yhwach

 

[SilentBob34]

@Arc7Kuroi do you think you could calc the hado 90 with the stand height of 92.22 meters? Or would the results be negligible ?

 

[Gitagon]

I wonder if Aizen could use KS on Pre-Almighty Yhwach to make him think he defeats both Aizen and Yamamoto, meanwhile the real Yama sneakily
activates Bankai and kills him.

I see Yama, Aizen and pre-Almighty Yhwach as roughly comparable so any two ganging up on one of them should be a win for the team.

 

[Damage3245]

@Arc7Kuroi do you think you could calc the hado 90 with the stand height of 92.22 meters? Or would the results be negligible ?

Just want to say that a 2 pixel drawing of Ichigo isn't going to be more accurate than a 27 pixel drawing of Rukia.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Just want to say that a 2 pixel drawing of Ichigo isn't going to be more accurate than a 27 pixel drawing of Rukia.

I'm pretty sure the result is semi-independent of size because as you get bigger the amount of air increases and the energy increases, but GBE is inversely proportional to size, so it doesn't end up mattering.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I wonder if Aizen could use KS on Pre-Almighty Yhwach to make him think he defeats both Aizen and Yamamoto, meanwhile the real Yama sneakily
activates Bankai and kills him.

Aizen does not seem to control what YH sees when he has the A under KS

 

[Tsotso]

Aizen does not seem to control what YH sees when he has the A under KS

I was talking about Pre-Almighty Yhwach.