BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

[Damage3245]

The only argument you can make is that we don't know of him ever using them, but if that was grounds for somebody to not have abilities on their profile, then a good number of profiles need revising.

I would welcome that. I think we can be too speculative sometimes.

 

[Purgy]

I would welcome that. I think we can be too speculative sometimes.

I mean... It's a pretty direct statement, and given that it comes from a novel, we kind of have to take statements like that as fact.

I don't see how it's any more speculative than saying he can't use the abilities for literally no reason.

 

[Catalyst75]

I mean... It's a pretty direct statement, and given that it comes from a novel, we kind of have to take statements like that as fact.

I don't see how it's any more speculative than saying he can't use the abilities for literally no reason.

Quincy powers would have originated from the Soul King because he was the First Quincy. The existence of Quincy began with his. That doesn't mean he would possess every single Quincy ability in the series.

People don't say he can't use those abilities "for literally no reason". They say it because the only ability we know for certain he possessed are "The Almighty" and the power he used to create and maintain the three worlds as they are. The abilities of those who are Aspects of the Soul King (Pernida, Mimihagi, Gerard, Gremmy) are likely abilities of his as well. However, there's no evidence that he'd have possessed the abilities of the Stern Ritter whom Yhwach empowered, just as there's no evidence Yhwach ever possessed the abilities of the Stern Ritter who died.

Before you say "But Yhwach gave them those abilities in the first place", he gave Uryu a Schrift as well, but the "Antithesis" is a power specifically described as "surpassing Yhwach's own" and able to counter "The Almighty". In all likelihood, Yhwach's Schrift only awakens the latent abilities inherent to each Stern Ritter, just as his Schrift awakened the Uryu's latent potential and ability, "The Antithesis".

The same would go for the Soul King fragments; they allow Humans to awaken latent Fullbring potential, rather than being the source of the abilities themselves.

 

[Purgy]

Quincy powers would have originated from the Soul King because he was the First Quincy. The existence of Quincy began with his. That doesn't mean he would possess every single Quincy ability in the series.

Actually no, Yhwach was the first Quincy, this is literally why he's called the progenitor of their species in the statement I posted above and it's even stated in the manga iirc, SK was more than a Quincy which is evident from him basically creating Fullbringers. The statement I posted is directly stating he was the origin of their abilities, meaning he had them first, I fail to see how you can dance around that, but given your prior posts on Bleach, I can't say I'm surprised you attempted to.

People don't say he can't use those abilities "for literally no reason". They say it because the only ability we know for certain he possessed are "The Almighty" and the power he used to create and maintain the three worlds as they are. The abilities of those who are Aspects of the Soul King (Pernida, Mimihagi, Gerard, Gremmy) are likely abilities of his as well. However, there's no evidence that he'd have possessed the abilities of the Stern Ritter whom Yhwach empowered, just as there's no evidence Yhwach ever possessed the abilities of the Stern Ritter who died.

Before you say "But Yhwach gave them those abilities in the first place", he gave Uryu a Schrift as well, but the "Antithesis" is a power specifically described as "surpassing Yhwach's own" and able to counter "The Almighty". In all likelihood, Yhwach's Schrift only awakens the latent abilities inherent to each Stern Ritter, just as his Schrift awakened the Uryu's latent potential and ability, "The Antithesis".

None of this actually dismisses the statement I posted at all, more so trying to dodge it with faulty comparisons to Yhwach, regardless, Yhwach is stated to gain the Sternritters abilities upon their death, so it's a moot point anyway.

The same would go for the Soul King fragments; they allow Humans to awaken latent Fullbring potential, rather than being the source of the abilities themselves.

Pure headcanon, nowhere is it said SK only awakens Fullbringers abilities, rather it's accepted that their abilities literally come from the pieces of his soul.

 

[SilentBob34]

So I saw on this thread on Naruto forums that this guy thinks bankai Kenpachi is superior to true bankai Ichigo and could easily kill Yhwach. While I know it’s completely wrong and everyone with common sense agrees he’s adamant about it lol. But, looking at the current profiles here.. he might actually be right.. I know it’s two different forums but I just thought it was funny that his opinion pretty much correlates with the profiles we have here lmao.

I’m not complaining about the current profiles I just thought it was a funny conincidence

 

[Ovy7]

Vol 3 would release in a few days, so the God tiers won't stay like they are now for long.

 

[Loyd]

Vol 3 would release in a few days, so the God tiers won't stay like they are now for long.

oh boy i can't wait

 

[San-Kakarot]

oh boy i can't wait

Yeah, Ichigo should be "At least Low 2-C, 2-C for one-shotting Yhwach twice". Yhwach should be "2-C" baseline.

 

[Loyd]

Yeah, Ichigo should be "At least Low 2-C, 2-C for one-shotting Yhwach twice". Yhwach should be "2-C" baseline.

theres a crt that makes yhwach hax low 2-c so ichigo doesnt scale to

 

[Gitagon]

Why wouldn't he be able to use powers that originally belonged to him? That's the biggest assumption yet.

This is a little different to Yhwach though, this statement is directly saying that those powers were originally the Soul King's, meaning they should be in his Prime key, absolutely nothing contradicts this, not a single thing.

The only argument you can make is that we don't know of him ever using them, but if that was grounds for somebody to not have abilities on their profile, then a good number of profiles need revising.

It's like arguing Cronus has the powers of Zeus or Poseidon or Hades, or saying Zeus has Ares' powers.

Soul King is the progenitor of the Quincy and obviously Fullbring. It doesn't mean he literally created every quincy or Fullbring power just that his descendants of progeny have the capability to awaken these abilities because of him.

The powers in Bleach are too personified. They literally have the personalities of the characters built into them so unless Soul King had some type of multiple personality disorder, there is almost no way he would be awakening all these different types of abilities just that he is the source of the power that allows all these characters to awaken these powers.

It is the same concept with gods and pantheons in mythology. The parent god isn't suddenly going to have all the powers of their kids even though all their abilities stem from their divinity. Whether it's the parent or the child, their divinity will be expressed differently.

 

[Naeblis495]

They literally have the personalities of the characters built into them so unless Soul King had some type of multiple personality disorder, there is almost no way he would be awakening all these different types of abilities just that he is the source of the power that allows all these characters to awaken these powers.

I mean...the limbs and organs of the SK have their own sentience and personalities so...
Even the Hogyoku, wich is composed of 2 minor fragments of the SK, have a will of it's own .

 

[Purgy]

It's like arguing Cronus has the powers of Zeus or Poseidon or Hades, or saying Zeus has Ares' powers.

Soul King is the progenitor of the Quincy and obviously Fullbring. It doesn't mean he literally created every quincy or Fullbring power just that his descendants of progeny have the capability to awaken these abilities because of him.

The powers in Bleach are too personified. They literally have the personalities of the characters built into them so unless Soul King had some type of multiple personality disorder, there is almost no way he would be awakening all these different types of abilities just that he is the source of the power that allows all these characters to awaken these powers.

It is the same concept with gods and pantheons in mythology. The parent god isn't suddenly going to have all the powers of their kids even though all their abilities stem from their divinity. Whether it's the parent or the child, their divinity will be expressed differently.

It's like arguing Cronus has the powers of Zeus or Poseidon or Hades, or saying Zeus has Ares' powers.

From God of War? Can you show me a statement that Cronus is the source of Zeus's abilities?

Soul King is the progenitor of the Quincy and obviously Fullbring. It doesn't mean he literally created every quincy or Fullbring power just that his descendants of progeny have the capability to awaken these abilities because of him.

The problem here is that you're just entirely ignoring the statement.

Back in the Valley of Screams, Tokinada finishes recounting the same tale and states that if Yhwach was the progenitor of the Quincy as a species, the Soul King was the source of their very powers.

Yhwach is the progenitor of their species, the Soul King is the source of their abilities, it clearly makes that distinction.

The powers in Bleach are too personified. They literally have the personalities of the characters built into them so unless Soul King had some type of multiple personality disorder, there is almost no way he would be awakening all these different types of abilities just that he is the source of the power that allows all these characters to awaken these powers.

So your argument is just one of incredulity? Because you don't believe SK can possess those abilities that means he can't? Not even worth dismissing this.

It is the same concept with gods and pantheons in mythology. The parent god isn't suddenly going to have all the powers of their kids even though all their abilities stem from their divinity. Whether it's the parent or the child, their divinity will be expressed differently.

Another false comparison, none of the people you're making comparisons with have statements of being the source of someones abilities.

 

[Catalyst75]

Actually no, Yhwach was the first Quincy, this is literally why he's called the progenitor of their species in the statement I posted above and it's even stated in the manga iirc, SK was more than a Quincy which is evident from him basically creating Fullbringers. The statement I posted is directly stating he was the origin of their abilities, meaning he had them first, I fail to see how you can dance around that, but given your prior posts on Bleach, I can't say I'm surprised you attempted to.

Except that assertion is defied by the series itself. We have a set time period for when Yhwach was born - 1,200 years before the start of the main series. The Quincy had existed long before then; long enough that there were folktales of Quincy born unable to collect reishi (who, in truth, could share power with others like Haschwalth) at the very least.

Because of that, Yhwach can't be the literal "First Quincy". The reason why his "blood" flows in the veins of all modern Quincy is that the only Quincy who survived to the modern-day were descendants of his army and the Stern Ritter. The rest were exterminated by the Shinigami 1,000 years prior to the start of the story.

Pure headcanon, nowhere is it said SK only awakens Fullbringers abilities, rather it's accepted that their abilities literally come from the pieces of his soul.

Yet here you are, considering your own assertions to be the one definitive truth instead of what they really are: interpretations and your own head-canon.

As has been brought up before, abilities in Bleach are inherently personified and unique to each individual. Every Zanpakuto name and ability is unique to their Shinigami; every Hollow's appearance, mask and abilities, and every Arrancar's abilities are unique to themselves as well.

The same goes for Fullbringer abilities: each one was shaped by the Fullbringer's personality, experiences, desires and, in most cases, their attachment to the item they channel their power through. Your argument would have to explain how each Soul King fragment, with its specific ability, "just happened" to end up inside a Human that "just happened" to developed desires or beliefs later in life that "just happened" to reflect the "ability" contained in the Soul King fragment.

When Aura Michibane proves that isn't the case. She doesn't have a specific Fullbring ability of her own, despite having the Saketsu of the Soul King. What she has is immense power, allowing her to use the Fullbring ability to "manipulate the souls of matter" to an extreme extent.

The Sternritter are no exception. Royd and Loyd were implied to have some version of "The Yourself" since they were young; Uryu's immunity to the Auswhalen was directly tied to his inherent potential, to possessing something surpassing Yhwach's power. That something turned out to be "The Antithesis". It is also clear each regular Sternritter possessed abilities reflecting some aspect of themselves, whether it be personality or beliefs.

As for my comparing the Soul King fragments to the Hogyoku:
------------------------------------------------------------------


“That’s not what I mean. Do you know how Fullbringers are born?”

“I think I can guess. A fragment of the Rei-o, am I right?”

Why is the Fullbringer targeted by the Hollow at the foetal stage?

Ginjo had predicted that the reason had to be because of something that was mixed into the Konpaku from before it was born. Although it was not clear what kind of influence this fragment of the Rei-o would have; Ginjo had assumed that just like Mimihagi-sama had taken possession of a Shinigami; if this fragment were to be fused with human beings, then it would bring about an effect similar to that of the Hogyoku.

A device that manifests the desires of those around it; something that could change the world.

The Hogyoku.

It would not be surprising if the fragment of the Rei-o acts as its substitute and activates Fullbring that can turn attachment into an ability.
------------------------------------------------------------
I know it is a fan translation, but I expect the official translation to say something quite similar, and the original Japanese as well. Ginjo, the man who knows the most about how Fullbring works, believes that the Soul King fragments work similarly to the Hogyoku, acting as a catalyst to allow a Human to awaken their Fullbring abilities through attachment and desire.

In other words, they aren't the source of the ability; they're the catalyst to awaken the ability.

 

[Gitagon]

Except that assertion is defied by the series itself. We have a set time period for when Yhwach was born - 1,200 years before the start of the main series. The Quincy had existed long before then; long enough that there were folktales of Quincy born unable to collect reishi (who, in truth, could share power with others like Haschwalth) at the very least.

Because of that, Yhwach can't be the literal "First Quincy". The reason why his "blood" flows in the veins of all modern Quincy is that the only Quincy who survived to the modern-day were descendants of his army and the Stern Ritter. The rest were exterminated by the Shinigami 1,000 years prior to the start of the story.


Yet here you are, considering your own assertions to be the one definitive truth instead of what they really are: interpretations and your own head-canon.

As has been brought up before, abilities in Bleach are inherently personified and unique to each individual. Every Zanpakuto name and ability is unique to their Shinigami; every Hollow's appearance, mask and abilities, and every Arrancar's abilities are unique to themselves as well.

The same goes for Fullbringer abilities: each one was shaped by the Fullbringer's personality, experiences, desires and, in most cases, their attachment to the item they channel their power through. Your argument would have to explain how each Soul King fragment, with its specific ability, "just happened" to end up inside a Human that "just happened" to developed desires or beliefs later in life that "just happened" to reflect the "ability" contained in the Soul King fragment.

When Aura Michibane proves that isn't the case. She doesn't have a specific Fullbring ability of her own, despite having the Saketsu of the Soul King. What she has is immense power, allowing her to use the Fullbring ability to "manipulate the souls of matter" to an extreme extent.

The Sternritter are no exception. Royd and Loyd were implied to have some version of "The Yourself" since they were young; Uryu's immunity to the Auswhalen was directly tied to his inherent potential, to possessing something surpassing Yhwach's power. That something turned out to be "The Antithesis". It is also clear each regular Sternritter possessed abilities reflecting some aspect of themselves, whether it be personality or beliefs.

As for my comparing the Soul King fragments to the Hogyoku:
------------------------------------------------------------------


“That’s not what I mean. Do you know how Fullbringers are born?”

“I think I can guess. A fragment of the Rei-o, am I right?”

Why is the Fullbringer targeted by the Hollow at the foetal stage?

Ginjo had predicted that the reason had to be because of something that was mixed into the Konpaku from before it was born. Although it was not clear what kind of influence this fragment of the Rei-o would have; Ginjo had assumed that just like Mimihagi-sama had taken possession of a Shinigami; if this fragment were to be fused with human beings, then it would bring about an effect similar to that of the Hogyoku.

A device that manifests the desires of those around it; something that could change the world.

The Hogyoku.

It would not be surprising if the fragment of the Rei-o acts as its substitute and activates Fullbring that can turn attachment into an ability.
------------------------------------------------------------
I know it is a fan translation, but I expect the official translation to say something quite similar, and the original Japanese as well. Ginjo, the man who knows the most about how Fullbring works, believes that the Soul King fragments work similarly to the Hogyoku, acting as a catalyst to allow a Human to awaken their Fullbring abilities through attachment and desire.

In other words, they aren't the source of the ability; they're the catalyst to awaken the ability.

Thank you for putting this into words.

What I'm seeing is people missing a huge part of Bleach's ability creation which is heavily tied to one's inner self, beliefs, experiences, desires, etc. To create or awaken a power, all Bleach characters need is a powerful catalyst.

Most characters have their abilities tied to an aspect of at least their subconscious.

We already have examples of Quincies whose abilities were there before Yhwach empowered them.

We have repeating techniques as well as techniques that make others obsolete.

We even have techniques that just downright don't fit Yhwach's personality at all.

Same for Soul King, he would be out of his mind creating a plushie and toyroom power millions of years ago or a motorcycle power.

The strange thing is that, in all my years of watching Bleach, I understood the concept of the powers of the strong acting as a catalyst for others to awaken their abilities.

Even back when Orihime and Chad hadn't been revealed (cough cough retcon) as Fullbrings and Ichigo was credited as awakening their abilities cause of his leaking Reiatsu, I didn't suddenly think Ichigo had their abilities too just because he awakened them.

I think with powerscaling, people want the verse to be powerful so they make huge leaps in logic like this that were never the case since day 1. But these kinda stuff can always be poked holes in when it is contradicted in-universe and doesn't make sense outside of it.

Uryu, the R & L twins and of course Aura + just the nature of Fullbring abilities disprove Yhwach or Soul King actually sitting down to create them.

It is more likely that their powers are so great so that anyone who has a portion of it can use it to craft their own abilities based on their imagination, experience, etc or enhance abilities they already had.

I find this to be even more versatile and powerful rather than handing out abilities like candy. It's like giving people the tools to make their own power. This is literally a power that "makes dreams & desires come true".

 

[AppleLord]

"Every Zanpakuto name and ability is unique to their Shinigami; every Hollow's appearance, mask and abilities, and every Arrancar's abilities are unique to themselves as well. "

Rukia and Hitsugaya = ice

Isshin and Yamamoto = fire

"Getsuga Tensho!" = Ichigo, Isshin, Ginjo,

" believes that the Soul King fragments work similarly to the Hogyoku, acting as a catalyst to allow a Human to awaken their Fullbring abilities through attachment and desire."

Telll that to Matsumoto (Soul/Shinigami) who is not human, she lost her Soul King's fragment to Aizen who put it inside his Hogyoku which is different from the Hogyoku Urahara created. Aizen's Hogyoku had Matsumoto's fullbring power from the piece of the Soul King's soul. Aizen feed that Hogyoku to his own later on.

Or Ginjo stealing Ichigo's fullbring and those who lost their fullbrings and couldn't get them back. If the fullbring was part of their soul they wouldn't be able to lose it unlike soul reapers powers when Rukia tells Gijnjo the speech.

"Same for Soul King, he would be out of his mind creating a plushie and toyroom power millions of years ago or a motorcycle power. "

LMAO dude can create the very concepts of life an death. Celestial bodies and universes/dimensions and even sealed up multiple size universe/dimensions and you think he can't make a plushie or a motorcycle? When he literally had the power to see the future and gave his life willingly for it?

 

[Cyberblader90]

to be fair, life and death came to be in their current state because of the boundary creation

 

[AppleLord]

to be fair, life and death came to be in their current state because of the boundary creation

You could assume that to be the case, outside of headcanon, the boundary was created when the Soul King made the worlds of Kishi and Reishi which means everything that exists in verse itself.

 

[Purgy]

Except that assertion is defied by the series itself. We have a set time period for when Yhwach was born - 1,200 years before the start of the main series. The Quincy had existed long before then; long enough that there were folktales of Quincy born unable to collect reishi (who, in truth, could share power with others like Haschwalth) at the very least.

Because of that, Yhwach can't be the literal "First Quincy". The reason why his "blood" flows in the veins of all modern Quincy is that the only Quincy who survived to the modern-day were descendants of his army and the Stern Ritter. The rest were exterminated by the Shinigami 1,000 years prior to the start of the story.


Yet here you are, considering your own assertions to be the one definitive truth instead of what they really are: interpretations and your own head-canon.

As has been brought up before, abilities in Bleach are inherently personified and unique to each individual. Every Zanpakuto name and ability is unique to their Shinigami; every Hollow's appearance, mask and abilities, and every Arrancar's abilities are unique to themselves as well.

The same goes for Fullbringer abilities: each one was shaped by the Fullbringer's personality, experiences, desires and, in most cases, their attachment to the item they channel their power through. Your argument would have to explain how each Soul King fragment, with its specific ability, "just happened" to end up inside a Human that "just happened" to developed desires or beliefs later in life that "just happened" to reflect the "ability" contained in the Soul King fragment.

When Aura Michibane proves that isn't the case. She doesn't have a specific Fullbring ability of her own, despite having the Saketsu of the Soul King. What she has is immense power, allowing her to use the Fullbring ability to "manipulate the souls of matter" to an extreme extent.

The Sternritter are no exception. Royd and Loyd were implied to have some version of "The Yourself" since they were young; Uryu's immunity to the Auswhalen was directly tied to his inherent potential, to possessing something surpassing Yhwach's power. That something turned out to be "The Antithesis". It is also clear each regular Sternritter possessed abilities reflecting some aspect of themselves, whether it be personality or beliefs.

As for my comparing the Soul King fragments to the Hogyoku:
------------------------------------------------------------------


“That’s not what I mean. Do you know how Fullbringers are born?”

“I think I can guess. A fragment of the Rei-o, am I right?”

Why is the Fullbringer targeted by the Hollow at the foetal stage?

Ginjo had predicted that the reason had to be because of something that was mixed into the Konpaku from before it was born. Although it was not clear what kind of influence this fragment of the Rei-o would have; Ginjo had assumed that just like Mimihagi-sama had taken possession of a Shinigami; if this fragment were to be fused with human beings, then it would bring about an effect similar to that of the Hogyoku.

A device that manifests the desires of those around it; something that could change the world.

The Hogyoku.

It would not be surprising if the fragment of the Rei-o acts as its substitute and activates Fullbring that can turn attachment into an ability.
------------------------------------------------------------
I know it is a fan translation, but I expect the official translation to say something quite similar, and the original Japanese as well. Ginjo, the man who knows the most about how Fullbring works, believes that the Soul King fragments work similarly to the Hogyoku, acting as a catalyst to allow a Human to awaken their Fullbring abilities through attachment and desire.

In other words, they aren't the source of the ability; they're the catalyst to awaken the ability.

Except that assertion is defied by the series itself. We have a set time period for when Yhwach was born - 1,200 years before the start of the main series. The Quincy had existed long before then; long enough that there were folktales of Quincy born unable to collect reishi (who, in truth, could share power with others like Haschwalth) at the very least.

The folk lore is contradicted by several things, such as the statement I posted above, Yhwach even being referred to as the progenitor in the manga and Yhwach being referred to as the Father of the Quincy, there's also Isshin Kurosaki directly saying Yhwach was the first.

Also, if you want to be technical, Yhwach wasn't the first, since Pernida strictly identifies as a Quincy and has existed for around a million years, but Pernida had nothing to do with the Quincy as a species, whereas Yhwach is directly said to have started it, so he may not be the "first" literally, but he definitely was the progenitor of the Quincy as a species.

Because of that, Yhwach can't be the literal "First Quincy". The reason why his "blood" flows in the veins of all modern Quincy is that the only Quincy who survived to the modern-day were descendants of his army and the Stern Ritter. The rest were exterminated by the Shinigami 1,000 years prior to the start of the story.

Evidence? This just seems like conjecture to me.

Whenever Yhwach is stated to be the progenitor of the Quincy (2 or 3 times split between the manga and novel) or their father, it's the Quincy, not some specific group or branch, but the Quincy as a species in general, even in the quote it literally says the progenitor of their species....

Regardless, looking at it objectively, it's possible the whole thing regarding Yhwach being the first or not is just an inconsistency, since there's evidence both ways.

As has been brought up before, abilities in Bleach are inherently personified and unique to each individual. Every Zanpakuto name and ability is unique to their Shinigami; every Hollow's appearance, mask and abilities, and every Arrancar's abilities are unique to themselves as well.

The same goes for Fullbringer abilities: each one was shaped by the Fullbringer's personality, experiences, desires and, in most cases, their attachment to the item they channel their power through. Your argument would have to explain how each Soul King fragment, with its specific ability, "just happened" to end up inside a Human that "just happened" to developed desires or beliefs later in life that "just happened" to reflect the "ability" contained in the Soul King fragment.

When Aura Michibane proves that isn't the case. She doesn't have a specific Fullbring ability of her own, despite having the Saketsu of the Soul King. What she has is immense power, allowing her to use the Fullbring ability to "manipulate the souls of matter" to an extreme extent.

Your Fullbringer argument is just a waste of time and I don't really care to read through it, it has almost nothing to do with my original argument and I only brought up Fullbringers in m original post as another interpretation incase you want to ignore a blatantly clear statement.

The Sternritter are no exception. Royd and Loyd were implied to have some version of "The Yourself" since they were young; Uryu's immunity to the Auswhalen was directly tied to his inherent potential, to possessing something surpassing Yhwach's power. That something turned out to be "The Antithesis". It is also clear each regular Sternritter possessed abilities reflecting some aspect of themselves, whether it be personality or beliefs.

Royd and Lloyd are contradictory, they're both said to have possessed it since birth and then afterwards it's stated that only Gerard and Pernida had their powers originally and weren't granted them by Yhwach.

Uryu's immunity is never elaborated on, nowhere is it said to be because of his inherent potential lol. Saying his immunity to Auswahlen is due to The Antithesis is pure headcanon, never stated and is only theorized.

SK is literally stated to be the source of their abilities, it doesn't matter what weak headcanon riddled argument you make to try and refute that, unless you give me another statement contradicting SK having them, we're not going to get anywhere.

As for my comparing the Soul King fragments to the Hogyoku:
------------------------------------------------------------------

“That’s not what I mean. Do you know how Fullbringers are born?”

“I think I can guess. A fragment of the Rei-o, am I right?”

Why is the Fullbringer targeted by the Hollow at the foetal stage?

Ginjo had predicted that the reason had to be because of something that was mixed into the Konpaku from before it was born. Although it was not clear what kind of influence this fragment of the Rei-o would have; Ginjo had assumed that just like Mimihagi-sama had taken possession of a Shinigami; if this fragment were to be fused with human beings, then it would bring about an effect similar to that of the Hogyoku.

A device that manifests the desires of those around it; something that could change the world.

The Hogyoku.

It would not be surprising if the fragment of the Rei-o acts as its substitute and activates Fullbring that can turn attachment into an ability.

More irrelevant drivel that doesn't actually refute my core argument, that being SK having the Schrifts, me bringing up Fullbringers was again, just another interpretation if you ignore a blatant statement, but yet you're almost constructing your entire post solely around that.

Regardless, I feel like this quote alone debunks your argument

"It was a Quincy as well as a Shinigami; also a human. A symbol of hope governing the chaotic world with innumerable abilities like that of Fullbringers."

SK is clearly stated to not only have innumerable abilities, but also the Fullbringers abilities themselves.

Lastly, since it's currently accepted for him to have the Fullbringers abilities, I'll link you the thread where your downgrade was rejected, and the original thread where it was accepted, since your arguments are literally brought up in that thread word for word (little suspicious) and debunked.

In other words, they aren't the source of the ability; they're the catalyst to awaken the ability.

Wrong, this was refuted both in your downgrade thread and the original thread that had SK having Fullbringer abilities accepted, thankfully people already debunked your argument in the past so I can just link the thread and not waste my time telling you something you already know but refuse to accept.

 

[Gitagon]

So people here genuinely think Soul King created a plushy Fullbring ability, a motorcycle Fullbring ability and a videogame Fullbring ability?

No wonder Bleach keeps having problems here and then people complain for days as if they are being bullied when there's questionable stuff like this being allowed to go through.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

So people here genuinely think Soul King created a plushy Fullbring ability, a motorcycle Fullbring ability and a videogame Fullbring ability?

u mean the guy that can see a million of years into every possible future could not know about videogames, motorcycles and toys?

 

[Gitagon]

u mean the guy that can see a million of years into every possible future could know about videogames, motorcycles and toys?

I'm not talking about Almighty, everyone already knows Soul King can see the future. I already made my point about Bleach's power system and individuality.

 

[Gitagon]

Looks like 1 statement from CFYOW interpreted wrongly made everyone here throw out all the explanation about awakening and creating Fullbring powers in Lost Agent arc out the window. Heck, the entirety of how Bleach abilities work is thrown out the window for the sake of Soul King and Yhwach wank that will get torn apart anyway. Why not just scale these 2 characters correctly without logic filled with holes.

If this is how desperate people are to wank then it is understandable why Bleach profiles are always troubled and questioned.

 

[Purgy]

So people here genuinely think Soul King created a plushy Fullbring ability, a motorcycle Fullbring ability and a videogame Fullbring ability?

No wonder Bleach keeps having problems here and then people complain for days as if they are being bullied when there's questionable stuff like this being allowed to go through.

Gremmy creates high tech missiles against Kenpachi even though he's been trapped in a cage in Silbern by Yhwach for god knows how long.

Fullbringers manipulate their Fullbring via an object they're closely tied to, so in Yukio's case it's his PSP, or with Giriko it's his pocket watch, but the SK doesn't have these items and thus isn't restricted in his use, he has no object affinity and rather just manipulates them as she sees fit.

So no, SK may not necessarily manipulate plushy's or use a PSP like Yukio, but he should be able to use the specific abilities themselves.

To give an example, SK may be able to manipulate time the same way as Giriko, but he's not reliant on a pocket watch to do so.

Regardless, your argument is basically "I don't believe SK manipulated things like plushy's so that means he shouldn't have it", do I really need to explain why an argument of disbelief is a terrible argument?

 

[Purgy]

Looks like 1 statement from CFYOW interpreted wrongly made everyone here throw out all the explanation about awakening and creating Fullbring powers in Lost Agent arc out the window. Heck, the entirety of how Bleach abilities work is thrown out the window for the sake of Soul King and Yhwach wank that will get torn apart anyway. Why not just scale these 2 characters correctly without logic filled with holes.

If this is how desperate people are to wank then it is understandable why Bleach profiles are always troubled and questioned.

Whining because you're not getting your way? That's all this post seems to be to me.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Looks like 1 statement from CFYOW interpreted wrongly made everyone here throw out all the explanation about awakening and creating Fullbring powers in Lost Agent arc out the window. Heck, the entirety of how Bleach abilities work is thrown out the window for the sake of Soul King and Yhwach wank that will get torn apart anyway. Why not just scale these 2 characters correctly without logic filled with holes.

If this is how desperate people are to wank then it is understandable why Bleach profiles are always troubled and questioned.

done with the tantrum?

 

[Catalyst75]

The folk lore is contradicted by several things, such as the statement I posted above, Yhwach even being referred to as the progenitor in the manga and Yhwach being referred to as the Father of the Quincy, there's also Isshin Kurosaki directly saying Yhwach was the first.

Also, if you want to be technical, Yhwach wasn't the first, since Pernida strictly identifies as a Quincy and has existed for around a million years, but Pernida had nothing to do with the Quincy as a species, whereas Yhwach is directly said to have started it, so he may not be the "first" literally, but he definitely was the progenitor of the Quincy as a species.

A Shinigami making a claim about where the Quincy started from. When we know for a fact the Shinigami have covered up history about the Quincy in the past. When we know that the Soul Society is built upon a lie about the Soul King's existence, who was a Quincy.

The folklore is part of what we know of the Quincy's history before Yhwach was born 1,200 years ago. The Quincy existing as a species before then disproves the entire argument you're going for. The folklore is evidence that the Quincy didn't suddenly spring up 1,200 years ago when Yhwach was born; there were Quincy who existed before him.

Evidence? This just seems like conjecture to me.

Whenever Yhwach is stated to be the progenitor of the Quincy (2 or 3 times split between the manga and novel) or their father, it's the Quincy, not some specific group or branch, but the Quincy as a species in general, even in the quote it literally says the progenitor of their species....

Regardless, looking at it objectively, it's possible the whole thing regarding Yhwach being the first or not is just an inconsistency, since there's evidence both ways.

Yhwach stated quite clearly that the original Gotei 13 exterminated the Quincy one thousand years ago, with the only survivor indicated to be those Quincy who hid in what became Vandenreich.

And again, you are presuming that the Shinigami have "unbiased, truthful accounts" of Quincy's existence. When the first time we learned of them revealed Rukia's lack of knowledge of their existence, and of the massacre 200 years ago. Yhwach's existence and own words were the first to reveal the existence of Quincy going back even further, including a prior extermination of the Quincy by the original Gotei 13 1,000 years prior. The Blood War had Yhwach call the Soul King, "the King of the Shinigami", his father, and we had the Left Arm identify itself as a Quincy.

So forgive me if I'm skeptical of your willingness to take certain things at (self-serving) face value.

Royd and Lloyd are contradictory, they're both said to have possessed it since birth and then afterwards it's stated that only Gerard and Pernida had their powers originally and weren't granted them by Yhwach.

Uryu's immunity is never elaborated on, nowhere is it said to be because of his inherent potential lol. Saying his immunity to Auswahlen is due to The Antithesis is pure headcanon, never stated and is only theorized.

SK is literally stated to be the source of their abilities, it doesn't matter what weak headcanon riddled argument you make to try and refute that, unless you give me another statement contradicting SK having them, we're not going to get anywhere.

Uryu's immunity is never elaborated on, nowhere is it said to be because of his inherent potential lol

...What a load of bull-**** and lies.

His inherent potential is all but stated to be the reason why in chapter 544 by Yhwach's himself:

Spoiler

Uryu survived the Auswahlen that killed every other Gemischt Quincy, and Yhwach states it is because Uryu possesses something that can surpass his powers. Something he possessed when he was just a child, years before Yhwach gave him his Schrift. "The Antithesis" is strongly implied to be that power. The Schrift only served to awaken it.

Since that is how it happened with Uryu, the same is likely true for most Stern Ritter barring Pernida and Gerard. Otherwise, your argument is that all the Stern Ritter "lacked" any inherent potential or abilities and that Yhwach "created" their abilities out of nothing.

More irrelevant drivel that doesn't actually refute my core argument, that being SK having the Schrifts, me bringing up Fullbringers was again, just another interpretation if you ignore a blatant statement, but yet you're almost constructing your entire post solely around that.

Irrelevant drivel, or an inconvenient line of dialogue you don't want to address? Because, if it were to be accepted that the Soul King fragments do work similarly to the Hogyoku - as a force that helps turn an individual's desires into an ability, rather than being the source of the abilities themselves - it means your entire argument is built upon a false interpretation.

That everything you have is also built upon your own head-canons, not an immutable fact.

 

[Catalyst75]

Rukia and Hitsugaya = ice

Isshin and Yamamoto = fire

"Getsuga Tensho!" = Ichigo, Isshin, Ginjo,

Rukia: Sode no Shirayuki reduce the temperature of her own body and anything her Zanpakuto touches down to below zero temperatures, all the way to Absolute Zero.

Toshiro: Hyorinmaru's main ability is to manipulate the water in the atmosphere as the source of his ice, including manipulating the weather itself.

Isshin: Engetsu sheathes his Zanpakuto in flames, the only technique seen of it involving using his own blood to augment the flames.

Yamamoto: Zanka no Tachi compresses all the flames of his Zanpakuto into the edge of his sword, allowing him to blast away opponents with pure heat, and he can call upon the ashes of the dead he's killed to fight for him.

Getsuga Tenshou: Ginjo used the ability of his Fullbring to steal Ichigo's own, which had fused with his Shinigami powers at that point.

But really, are you so intent on trying to disprove me that you'd deliberately ignore the actual abilities of these characters in favour of generalizations.

 

[Loyd]

what did i miss holy shit this is content

 

[AppleLord]

I'm not talking about Almighty, everyone already knows Soul King can see the future. I already made my point about Bleach's power system and individuality.

No. He is talking about the ability to “sealed everything and anything you find cute” inside something of your liking, which includes souls like Rukia’s body. The ability to get stronger the dirtier you get and the ability that allows you to even seal entire dimensions inside a dimension created of your own, and change and manipulate entire dimensions to your liking.

That kind of power sounds ridiculous in his head for some reason.

 

[AppleLord]

A Shinigami making a claim about where the Quincy started from. When we know for a fact the Shinigami have covered up history about the Quincy in the past. When we know that the Soul Society is built upon a lie about the Soul King's existence, who was a Quincy.

The folklore is part of what we know of the Quincy's history before Yhwach was born 1,200 years ago. The Quincy existing as a species before then disproves the entire argument you're going for. The folklore is evidence that the Quincy didn't suddenly spring up 1,200 years ago when Yhwach was born; there were Quincy who existed before him.



Yhwach stated quite clearly that the original Gotei 13 exterminated the Quincy one thousand years ago, with the only survivor indicated to be those Quincy who hid in what became Vandenreich.

And again, you are presuming that the Shinigami have "unbiased, truthful accounts" of Quincy's existence. When the first time we learned of them revealed Rukia's lack of knowledge of their existence, and of the massacre 200 years ago. Yhwach's existence and own words were the first to reveal the existence of Quincy going back even further, including a prior extermination of the Quincy by the original Gotei 13 1,000 years prior. The Blood War had Yhwach call the Soul King, "the King of the Shinigami", his father, and we had the Left Arm identify itself as a Quincy.

So forgive me if I'm skeptical of your willingness to take certain things at (self-serving) face value.



...What a load of bull-**** and lies.

His inherent potential is all but stated to be the reason why in chapter 544 by Yhwach's himself:

Spoiler

Uryu survived the Auswahlen that killed every other Gemischt Quincy, and Yhwach states it is because Uryu possesses something that can surpass his powers. Something he possessed when he was just a child, years before Yhwach gave him his Schrift. "The Antithesis" is strongly implied to be that power. The Schrift only served to awaken it.

Since that is how it happened with Uryu, the same is likely true for most Stern Ritter barring Pernida and Gerard. Otherwise, your argument is that all the Stern Ritter "lacked" any inherent potential or abilities and that Yhwach "created" their abilities out of nothing.



Irrelevant drivel, or an inconvenient line of dialogue you don't want to address? Because, if it were to be accepted that the Soul King fragments do work similarly to the Hogyoku - as a force that helps turn an individual's desires into an ability, rather than being the source of the abilities themselves - it means your entire argument is built upon a false interpretation.

That everything you have is also built upon your own head-canons, not an immutable fact.

You mean the folklore told by a villager to describe an outsider which he knows nothing about? That is as credible as Isshins opinion. What we know is that Yhwach is the son of the Soul King and he was born as a “baby” so Yhwach was born eons ago before Mimihagi was cut off and thrown into the world. That is more reliable than any other character opinion because is fact and we saw it on panel.

 

[AppleLord]

Rukia: Sode no Shirayuki reduce the temperature of her own body and anything her Zanpakuto touches down to below zero temperatures, all the way to Absolute Zero.

Toshiro: Hyorinmaru's main ability is to manipulate the water in the atmosphere as the source of his ice, including manipulating the weather itself.

Isshin: Engetsu sheathes his Zanpakuto in flames, the only technique seen of it involving using his own blood to augment the flames.

Yamamoto: Zanka no Tachi compresses all the flames of his Zanpakuto into the edge of his sword, allowing him to blast away opponents with pure heat, and he can call upon the ashes of the dead he's killed to fight for him.

Getsuga Tenshou: Ginjo used the ability of his Fullbring to steal Ichigo's own, which had fused with his Shinigami powers at that point.

But really, are you so intent on trying to disprove me that you'd deliberately ignore the actual abilities of these characters in favour of generalizations.

Don’t back down now. You almost had an argument.

 

[SilentBob34]

Jesus Christ wtf is going on in this thread. Both sides can be either right or wrong about this shit but is it seriously that important when I can’t personally recall a thread that had them using all of those abilities? At most he can get a possible for all the abilities IMO

 

[SilentBob34]

Like seriously, I believe that some things like the almighty being the thing that creates or destroys the bleach verse is wrong when we’re given solid proof it doesn’t is worth arguing against, but when it’s something like the soul king and Yhwach having every ability of every full bringer and Quincy because they’re the originator of them is honestly not worth arguing against.
The soul king was also the originator of the shinigami (correct me if I’m wrong) but I don’t see people arguing he has every shinigami ability that’s existed. Honestly like I posted before, at most we can give him and Yhwach a maybe to having those abilities. I sorta agree with Gitagon that this is another reason why nobody wants to participate in Bleach threads

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

The soul king was also the originator of the shinigami (correct me if I’m wrong)

He was not the originator of Shinigami

As for the Yhwach part we are literally given a full chapter explaining his powers and abilities and how he takes them from those that die and had a piece of his soul at the time of their deaths

 

[Loyd]

how long has vsbattle argued whether yhwach can use the sternritter schrifts or SK can use everyones fullbring kinda wish someone just asked kubo in dms or an interview

 

[Damage3245]

how long has vsbattle argued whether yhwach can use the sternritter schrifts or SK can use everyones fullbring kinda wish someone just asked kubo in dms or an interview

Since the chapter came out, probably.

 

[Gitagon]

One of the Soul King's hands represented the Quincy while the other represented the Shinigami. In fact the Soul King had the nature of all 4 Bleach races: Shinigami, Hollow, Quincy, Fullbring.

We all know how Shinigami, Hollow, Fullbring abilities are awakened and created in in-depth descriptions in the manga. (I honestly can't believe people are blatantly ignoring Fullbring lore this way just to wank SK)

And this usually involves the ability being unique to the individual based on their personality, experiences, etc. However at that point, the power is still illusionary, not real (like when Hyorinmaru first appeared to Toshiro in a vision. Was this even canon?) but a powerful catalyst can make it real.

For Shinigami, this is the Asauchi, for Fullbringers, the same CFOYW novel people use here to grant Soul King all Fullbring abilities clearly states that the Soul Kong shards act as a Hogyoku allowing people to make their dreams into reality. It is obviously the catalyst here.

With Quincies the argument was that Yhwach got the dead Quincies schrifts after he took their power. I could possibly accept this argument though there aren't any feats of him using these powers even when they would have literally saved his life in the final battle. However, though I find it dubious cause of the lack of feats, I understand this argument cause Yhwach did indeed absorb their power.

But what I don't accept is people claiming he created those schrifts himself when we have 3 counter-examples to that.

I still maintain that all 4 Bleach races awaken their own uniques powers not just Hollows and Shinigami. Especially for Fullbringers which I think people are being purposefully obtuse here to wank the Soul King. Nothing is unexplained about them, their entire lore as well as how their abilities are awakened or created is explained in detail in Lost Agent arc and again in CFYOW. It's all the page, it isn't speculation like with the Quincies where there is some vagueness.

I didn't comment or debate on Yhwach having other's schrifts when he did the power absorption since the statement in the manga makes it sound as if he got all their powers not just part of it.

The only thing working against him was feats. And obviously, Feats > Statements.

However, for this Soul King thing, I find it hard to understand cause people are literally ignoring canon, basically disregarding all of Lost Agent arc, and even for CFOYW, they ignore the Soul "King shards = Hogyoku" statements just to wank Soul King and misattribute abilities he didn't have to him.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

how long has vsbattle argued whether yhwach can use the sternritter schrifts or SK can use everyones fullbring kinda wish someone just asked kubo in dms or an interview

He has I think a club or something where u can send him Q

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

"the other represented the Shinigami"

That's false, the right hand represented stillness never was it said that it represents shinigami

 

[Loyd]

He has I think a club or something where u can send him Q

whats the club i unironically want to ask him