Avatar / Legend of Korra 5-C Revisions

[BrackishBrineBroth]

It seems like Kukui doesn't really want to come back to the thread, given that he's been talking in other threads in the meantime.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

So you’re claiming that Wan by himself is massively stronger than Raava? In that case why would any Avatar after him be 5-C since they wouldn’t share his physicals? Or are you advocating that everyone who scales to Base Season 2 Korra should be 5-C?

Wan by himself doesn’t do anything besides get ragdolled by Vaatu. His only feats are not dying from two blasts and still being in good enough condition to dodge a third before being possessed by Raava.

Can you prove that his physical form scales to the total spirit energy he has?

Why would I need to prove that? The accepted logic and scaling on the profiles is that earthbenders physically scale to their earthbending and Avatars are accepted as their elements being amped to whatever we tier AS at which would include earthbending. If Vaatu is 5-C, Wan’s bending also scales for harming him, and thus his physicals.

Being strict on Universal Energy Systems is all the rage nowadays. If they’re scaling above Twi and La’s creation feat, do they have feats on a similar level? Is there a statement or showing of how spirit energy manifests itself in attacks that are comparable to the total energy of a being? Twi and La gave up any defenses they could have and their immortality to create the moon and ocean, so would Vaatu not be expending far less energy than that feat in normal combat?

Tui and La didn’t give up their power to create the moon or seas, they were vulnerable because they took a mortal form as the koi fish. The moon creation was able to be performed by a fragment of the Moon Spirit’s power. I’m perfectly fine if you want to erase 5-C from the verse, I’m arguing that Wan and Korra scale to Vaatu and Raava by their feats regardless of whatever tier the kites get.

He takes attacks and his form seems to be torn by them but that doesn’t seem to actually hurt him. He doesn’t imply or look even remotely injured after anything Wan does, he just regenerates as if nothing is happening. Why should he care about increasing his defense if he can’t be killed?

He doesn’t get to pick his durability. That’s a random and baseless assertion that people actually need to start providing proof for. The very fact that he is regenerating shows that he has been damaged more than what full power Raava managed.

Can you prove that Raava physically scales, in her manifested form, to Twi and La’s feat? They’re stronger than them sure, but that’s a creation feat vs a physical, immortal spirit body, of which there should be no relation.

I don’t need to prove Raava physically scales when that is what is already the accepted. You would need to prove Raava and Vaatu’s dura doesn’t scale to their AP despite Vaatu being incapable of escaping Raava for 10,000 years even though the OP’s argument is that Vaatu and Raava’s physicals scale to them, smth no one disagreed with or showed any sign of disagreement until now.

Just to be straight: you believe that, because Wan’s bending can create holes in Vaatu’s physical form, that Wan, by himself and with no amps, is strong enough to one shot peak power Vaatu if he did not have regeneration, and that S2 Korra is comparable to him.

No. Base Wan doesn’t do a thing against Vaatu aside from surviving 2 and a bit lasers. I think that pseudo-AS and AS could have done that because they blew a tenth of Vaatu’s body out, cut him in half etc.

On Korra, my stance is that her AS at least scales to the Raava and Vaatu that were equal since Raava didn’t get much bigger if at all after 10,000 years so Vaatu would logically still be > himself when the two spirits were equal.

As I said, scrap the 5-C tiering if you think they don’t scale but the versions of Wan and Korra that I mentioned have to scale to/above whatever tier Vaatu/Raava were at before their separation because those are their feats (the only feats for the former) with nobody else doing a thing to them.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Wan by himself doesn’t do anything besides get ragdolled by Vaatu. His only feats are not dying from two blasts and still being in good enough condition to dodge a third before being possessed by Raava.

Why would I need to prove that? The accepted logic and scaling on the profiles is that earthbenders physically scale to their earthbending and Avatars are accepted as their elements being amped to whatever we tier AS at which would include earthbending. If Vaatu is 5-C, Wan’s bending also scales for harming him, and thus his physicals.

Tui and La didn’t give up their power to create the moon or seas, they were vulnerable because they took a mortal form as the koi fish. The moon creation was able to be performed by a fragment of the Moon Spirit’s power. I’m perfectly fine if you want to erase 5-C from the verse, I’m arguing that Wan and Korra scale to Vaatu and Raava by their feats regardless of whatever tier the kites get.

He doesn’t get to pick his durability. That’s a random and baseless assertion that people actually need to start providing proof for. The very fact that he is regenerating shows that he has been damaged more than what full power Raava managed.

I don’t need to prove Raava physically scales when that is what is already the accepted. You would need to prove Raava and Vaatu’s dura doesn’t scale to their AP despite Vaatu being incapable of escaping Raava for 10,000 years even though the OP’s argument is that Vaatu and Raava’s physicals scale to them, smth no one disagreed with or showed any sign of disagreement until now.

No. Base Wan doesn’t do a thing against Vaatu aside from surviving 2 and a bit lasers. I think that pseudo-AS and AS could have done that because they blew a tenth of Vaatu’s body out, cut him in half etc.

On Korra, my stance is that her AS at least scales to the Raava and Vaatu that were equal since Raava didn’t get much bigger if at all after 10,000 years so Vaatu would logically still be > himself when the two spirits were equal.

As I said, scrap the 5-C tiering if you think they don’t scale but the versions of Wan and Korra that I mentioned have to scale to/above whatever tier Vaatu/Raava were at before their separation because those are their feats (the only feats for the former) with nobody else doing a thing to them.

Not a single person in the verse scales to their bending physically, you might need to check profiles again. Aang is 9-A physically, Korra’s ratings all pertain solely to her bending, etc. Idk where that got accepted since it’s not on the profiles, otherwise the entire cast would be 8-A to 7-C in dura.

Nerfing their forms into mortal fish and sending their power to create the ocean/moon is a feat that I assume takes more energy than throwing a punch. So assuming the creation feats scale to physicals in the first place is incorrect.

I’m not saying he can control it, I’m saying his dura is way weaker than his total chi, which would make him physically not 5-C. Chi is not a Universal Energy System, as wiki lists it as a Non-Physical Energy system and a Limited Energy System. That means that physical stats need to be proven to scale to energy stats, but I guess that got lost in translation regarding Vaatu and Raava. Is there evidence that having total chi higher than another gives you physical stats above their total chi?

And I agree they scale to them regardless, my issue is that Raava and Vaatu physically being above the fish’s creation is cap and therefore no Avatar, or Raava and Vaatu, should be be physically or bending wise scaling to them. They should be “x, y with chi manipulation,” and it should not be combat applicable unless there is reasoning to assume they can actually output that level of energy in attacks or strikes or techniques.

If you believe that Vaatu isn’t toying around, then base Wan has dura equal to Vaatu’s AP, but then gets amped by Raava to being capable of one shotting Peak Vaatu, but still gets bodied by Vaatu’s AP, which makes 0 sense.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

It may be too late since staff have agreed with it, but I've come around to disagreeing with Kukui regarding the earlier Avatars being significantly weaker then prime Korra, for several reasons.

1. The creators of Avatar have never stated that Korra's AS is more powerful then Aang's. Korra's voice actress also didn't know who would win between the two.
2. When Raava is ripped out of Korra, she is in a small state, but not as small as she was when she fused with Wan. This seems to suggest that Raava's size was fluctuating within the avatar during the centuries as light and darkness influenced Raava's size. Keep in mind during season 2 of Korra that lots of dark spirits are roaming the world, which would influence Raava's size. And like Anonymous said, we're just assuming that Raava's smaller size makes the avatar several tiers weaker and that Vaatu was just toying with Wan even after he became the avatar, which doesn't really make sense to me.

3. There's this excerpt from The Shadow of Kyoshi novel.

Avatar Kuruk's fight with a powerful spirit nearly tears open a portal between the physical and spiritual worlds. The other times this happened was near the beginning of time, when Raava and Vaatu individually pierced through the realms, creating the spirit portals. And of course, there's the Korra series finale. This suggests that Kuruk in the avatar state is not too far behind Korra when it comes to her level of power. And we know that the energy required to create a spirit portal is at least above 7-B due to Kuvira's Colossus blowing up a part of a mountain without a portal forming. It's also likely higher low 6-B since that was what the avatars in the AS used to be rated because of the Kyoshi Island formation feat. There's also Korra's statement from the comics that she nearly died when the portal was created.

 

[Reiner04]

Where this thread is even going from past 6 months.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

So can someone get staff for an actual judgement on this. We have what like 6 agreements from before the war of the Bibles popped up?

Regardless of how they scale, the baseline thing that should be happening is Vaatu and Raava should not be 5-C, Avatar’s should not be 5-C, and we need a feat for them to scale to.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Regardless of how they scale, the baseline thing that should be happening is Vaatu and Raava should not be 5-C, Avatar’s should not be 5-C, and we need a feat for them to scale to.

Says you. That's not what this thread was started on.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Simply being alive creates and maintains the moon’s existence, something that even the tiny fragment of power given to keep Yue alive was able to accomplish so the 5-C scaling is honestly fine as long as we accept Tui’s moon creation as 5-C. Following that line of thought on how Tui does that for the moon, it’s reasonable to assume that La does the same with the oceans, a mass comparable to the moon in scale though notably lesser if we assume irl values of mass. The two of them are also passively responsible for the oceans’ ebb and flow which is multi continental or smth iirc. That would make two spirits weaker than Raava and Vaatu have multiple passive feats ranging from High 6-A to 5-C.

On the topic of physicals scaling to earthbending, my mistake on it being on the profiles (coulda sworn it was). I can gather the scans and make a CRT for it at a later date.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Simply being alive creates and maintains the moon’s existence, something that even the tiny fragment of power given to keep Yue alive was able to accomplish so the 5-C scaling is honestly fine as long as we accept Tui’s moon creation as 5-C.

To play devil's advocate for a minute, the stabilization page does so that the object being stabilized by the being's life-force rather then power doesn't count. However, we know it's not being sustained by the moon spirit's life force because a bit of Tui's life force was still in Yue when Tui "died", and the ttrpg states that Tui was only mostly dead. So going by that logic, the moon shouldn't have vanished.

And I agree that the creation feat warrants the 5-C rating, of course.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Ah yeah, I meant that Tui is constantly exerting that level of power while alive rather than the moon depends on it being alive. Should have been more clear. But yeah, 5-C should stay based on the site standards.