Avatar / Legend of Korra 5-C Revisions

[BrackishBrineBroth]

If we take this literally as Raava suggested, Vaatu would be implied to be capable of destroying both the human and spirit worlds entirely.

I think she was just being hyperbolic. Wan asked her about her winning the next harmonic convergence if Vaatu succeeds in the current one, and Raava responded that humanity wouldn't live to see it because darkness would cover the human and spirit worlds for 10,000 years. "Ceasing to exist" in this context likely means both worlds being unrecognizable when the next HC comes. Though... It is possible that, given how reactive the Spirit world is too energy, it's possible that the spirit world could get ****** up enough by Vaatu's chaos that it could be irreparably damaged and disappear, and that this would affect the human world in turn. Though that wouldn't really be an ap feat.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I'd need to see some links.

• From the ttrpg. From a former nick.com link
• From the show itself. The moon doesn't come back until after Yue says goodbye to Sokka
• Spirit energy being measured by how powerful it is.

^^

 

[ByAsura]

ik, I'm just in the middle of some other stuff.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Bump

 

[ByAsura]

First one blatantly confirms that their tidal force is their power, so I'm happy to put that to bed.

I'm torn on the next three, but I don't think it'd work. The Moon Spirit disappeared because its mortal body died, so all Yue did was restore its mortal form with a sliver of life energy, at which point the Moon Spirit resurrected.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

First one blatantly confirms that their tidal force is their power, so I'm happy to put that to bed.

I'm torn on the next three, but I don't think it'd work. The Moon Spirit disappeared because its mortal body died, so all Yue did was restore its mortal form with a sliver of life energy, at which point the Moon Spirit resurrected.

If the moon came back because of Yue giving It back the sliver of life energy she had gotten from it, wouldn’t that imply the moon spirit is in relation with its spirit energy?

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

First one blatantly confirms that their tidal force is their power, so I'm happy to put that to bed.

I'm torn on the next three, but I don't think it'd work. The Moon Spirit disappeared because its mortal body died, so all Yue did was restore its mortal form with a sliver of life energy, at which point the Moon Spirit resurrected.

Wouldn't the moon have immediately come back as soon as spirit Yue was formed, then? She did rise out of the pond/out of La before saying goodbye to Sokka. The fact that the moon only appeared afterward implies that she made it appear.

 

[ByAsura]

If the moon came back because of Yue giving It back the sliver of life energy she had gotten from it, wouldn’t that imply the moon spirit is in relation with its spirit energy?

It didn't come back because Yue gave life energy to it. Yue just gave life energy to the mortal form.

Wouldn't the moon have immediately come back as soon as spirit Yue was formed, then? She did rise out of the pond/out of La before saying goodbye to Sokka. The fact that the moon only appeared afterward implies that she made it appear.

If anything, that supports my assertion that the mortal form resurrected the Moon Spirit, who truly restored the moon.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

who truly restored the moon.

Wouldn't that still qualify under creation, though, since Tui actively restored it?

From the creation page.
Yue was shown to be able to waterbend a large amount of water when she was a spirit despite the fact that she was a nonbender in life. Therefore, the ap should scale to her creation, especially since the moon spirit and ocean spirit are considered comparable to each other.

 

[ByAsura]

I'm not sure. They said it wasn't in the last thread.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

It didn't come back because Yue gave life energy to it. Yue just gave life energy to the mortal form.

That’s pretty much what I meant actually. The mortal form came back to life from Yues life energy, which we know is the moon spirits, and then the moon came back. I was asking if this would then imply the moon spirits own spirit energy has a direct relation to the moon’s existence.

 

[ByAsura]

In that case, I'm not sure, but I don't think it'd be proof of anything.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I see. By the way, since you agreed with pretty much everything I laid out in the thread, then your also in agreement that Harmonic Convergences energy can be scaled to?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

In that case, I'm not sure, but I don't think it'd be proof of anything.

I see. By the way, since you agreed with pretty much everything I laid out in the thread, then your also in agreement that Harmonic Convergences energy can be scaled to?

 

[ByAsura]

I don't really see how it'd make a difference, since Raava's power would still wax and wane during possession, but it's only a spiritual connection IIRC, and not a true fusion like Korra performed.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I don't really see how it'd make a difference, since Raava's power would still wax and wane during possession, but it's only a spiritual connection IIRC, and not a true fusion like Korra performed.

Nah what I was referring to was upscaling Tiny Raavas power from the amplified energy of Harmonic Convergence, the latter in which should be able to be tiered

Unless I misread what u meant.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

There have been five staff agreements for the proposals, KuKui. Which is enough.

 

[ByAsura]

Nah what I was referring to was upscaling Tiny Raavas power from the amplified energy of Harmonic Convergence, the latter in which should be able to be tiered

Unless I misread what u meant.

Oh right, that's fine then.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

There have been five staff agreements for the proposals, KuKui. Which is enough.

I know. The discussion now however is to decide things like what the tiering will be and what scaling methods we can use, which we’ll need to get a consensus on before revising pages.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

The discussion now however is to decide things like what the tiering will be and what scaling methods we can use, which we’ll need to get a consensus on before revising pages.

What were you thinking of for the pre season 2 finale avatar state; high 6-A? Cause any lower then that doesn't make sense considering Korra or Wan didn't get one-shot by Vaatu. You said it was because of Vaatu holding back due to him not taking them seriously. That definitely happened during his fight with Wan, but I don't think that holds true with his fight with Korra. He knew what he was up against this time and that he had to take her more seriously.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

What were you thinking of for the pre season 2 finale avatar state; high 6-A?

Well, as I said, that would depend on what other tiering methods we go with to find a tier for the other Avatars.

For intense, the amplified spirit energy of Harmonic Convergence was doing things like shaking the entire planet, shifting its energy, and even wiping away all of the clouds on the Planets surface (implied since we see the clouds in the sky above Republic City and in the South Pole get wiped away with the Aurora Borealis lights)

Depending on which of those 3 things you go with, HC should be able to be tiered, and then tiny Raava can upscale from that.

Cause any lower then that doesn't make sense considering Korra or Wan didn't get one-shot by Vaatu. You said it was because of Vaatu holding back due to him not taking them seriously. That definitely happened during his fight with Wan, but I don't think that holds true with his fight with Korra. He knew what he was up against this time and that he had to take her more seriously.

Well as I said, Vaatu doesn’t really have any reason to take Korra seriously more than he did with Wan. Considering Vaatu was still highly confident on permanently eliminating Raava in her weakened condition (which we know realistically is impossible to pull off), he wouldn’t have seen Korra as a significant threat to really TRY destroying seriously.

We even see during their fight in the Spirit World, Vaatu was holding Korra off. Trapping her in spirit vines and even barely attacking her. The primary objective was fusing with Unalaq to create the Dark Avatar.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

By the way; good eye on noticing that all of the clouds were wiped away during HC. I never noticed that detail.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

By the way; good eye on noticing that all of the clouds were wiped away during HC. I never noticed that detail.

I noticed it when rewatching the scene of HC happening.

Republic City initially had clouds in the sky, but the wave of spirit energy (which was also rising into the atmosphere/outer space) wiped all of them away and changed the sky to have Northern/Southern lights. The same happened in the South Pole (as we see them during Korras fight with Unalaq). So that should imply the all of the planets clouds got wiped during HC.

We’d have to get a calc to see how much power this would take, but I imagine the results should be pretty decent.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Oh right, that's fine then.

Do you know if it’s possible to calc wiping all all of a planets clouds?

 

[ByAsura]

It is. We just need a timeframe.

 

[Cropfist]

Do you know if it’s possible to calc wiping all all of a planets clouds?

Well, moving or creating planetary clouds nets small country level.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

It is. We just need a timeframe.

Ah. Well in the video of when HC first happens, we see the wave of spirit energy start enveloping the planet at 0:27 and finishes at 0:58

So roughly about 30-31 seconds?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

It is. We just need a timeframe.

Anyway if it’s possible, should I put in a calc request?

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Anyway if it’s possible, should I put in a calc request?

You should probably respond to Dalesean since he does calc stuff.

 

[ByAsura]

If Dale can't, then put in a calc request.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Yeah this seems sensible

Since Kuki seems to be busy, do you mind calcing this when you get the chance? Specifically, the wave that is wiping away the planet's clouds.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Bump

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Anyway if it’s possible, should I put in a calc request?

At this point, yeah. You should also clarify that it's not just Earth's clouds that are being wiped away, but the spirit world's as well. The spirit world's size is hard to quantify, but it should at least be as big as Earth, given that whenever someone is transported to the plane, they're in a different location, corresponding from where they transported from on the physical plane.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

So I haven’t been on the site for a few weeks when this first came out so sorry for the late ass participation lol.

Why do pseudo-AS Wan, AS Wan and AS Korra not scale to Vaatu exactly? I see in the OP that Wan “didn’t really even cause Vaatu any significant harm” but, let’s ignore that he very clearly has regen that fixes the damage, by that same line of reasoning, Raava and Vaatu themselves don’t cause each other any harm at all when we know they are equal prior to Wan’s interference and thus … wouldn’t scale to each other? Pseudo-AS and AS Wan on the other hand blatantly do cause damage to Vaatu with the studio’s liberal usage of the chiming sound effect that denotes him harming the evil kite’s body, the former involving Wan dying as he fights and constantly getting weaker as a result. Same thing happens with AS Korra when Vaatu is freed and not weakened at all while being fully aware of what happened last time so it’s not like he’d be holding back against her.

But let’s just steelman that Vaatu was weakened during LoK and Korra and every Avatar before her doesn’t scale, Wan would still have to scale at the bare minimum since that is one thing that cannot be disputed since he fights on par with/completely overwhelms Vaatu at his peak (short of Raava being temporarily destroyed). Even saying that Vaatu was holding back for whatever reason against Wan once Raava possessed him, he still ran away when they fused and couldn’t do anything once Wan put him in a ball before stuffing him in the tree. Said ball being AS Wan’s bending … aka his AP and tier. Bro literally only has scaling to Vaatu once he becomes the Avatar and has superior feats to Raava and Vaatu themselves.

Someone else also said something about no Avatar showing off the kind of power such scaling to Tui and La implies which is just … the worst kind of logic to apply here. Leaving aside that there isn’t even 5 characters in the franchise that scale to a mastered AS (past-General Old Iron in armor, Yangchen, probably someone in a Kyoshi novel) outside of the Avatars themselves, literally nobody that even the OP accepts scaling to 5-C showcases anything close to Moon Level. Not past Vaatu, not past Raava, not UnaVaatu, not even Koizilla Aang who would be stronger than the 5-C feat for fusing with La = Tui.

This downgrade is based on faulty reasoning that requires us to ignore context of the events in question.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Why do pseudo-AS Wan, AS Wan and AS Korra not scale to Vaatu exactly? I see in the OP that Wan “didn’t really even cause Vaatu any significant harm” but, let’s ignore that he very clearly has regen that fixes the damage, by that same line of reasoning, Raava and Vaatu themselves don’t cause each other any harm at all when we know they are equal prior to Wan’s interference and thus … wouldn’t scale to each other?

The problem from this however isn’t just because both have regen to “fix damage” (which, as we saw presented, was small holes incurred on their bodies by bending blasts at best)

Vaatu wasn’t overpowered, matched in power or had any reason whatsoever to even fight against them seriously, BECAUSE of the fact that Raava got drastically depowered during Wans harmonic convergence. Raava in her prime had kept Vaatu restrained enough to keep him under lock and key until Wan interfered with them, and by influencing dark spirits to shift the balance of light/darkness, Vaatu became incredibly confident that he would’ve permanently destroyed Raava in her weakened state

(Even though realistically, we as the viewers, know that’s impossible for one to forever destroy the other)

Even if we ignore the fact that Vaatu was beating pseudo Wan around like a ragdoll, and barely went on the offensive against Korra before Unalaq fused with him

There is no reason for Vaatu to use anything close to full power against a significantly depowered Raava, or their vessels.

Not to mention, what I bolded out from your response here also answers the question on why they shouldn’t scale. If Prime Raava & Prime Vaatu, as equals, struggled for supremacy over the other for 10,000 years, why would an even weaker Raava, who became so depowered that Wan had to carry her in his teapot, be anywhere close to the power of an ENHANCED Vaatu after influencing dark spirits? That makes no sense.

Pseudo-AS and AS Wan on the other hand blatantly do cause damage to Vaatu with the studio’s liberal usage of the chiming sound effect that denotes him harming the evil kite’s body

As I mentioned above, this at best is causing small punctured holes in Vaatus body, which we visibly seen, didn’t slow Vaatu down or anything similar. Having regen is one thing, but growing tired or exhausted after continuous use of it is another. The latter we don’t see from Vaatu.

Plus, more importantly, there’s the matter of Vaatu holding back as I also mention above.

Same thing happens with AS Korra when Vaatu is freed and not weakened at all while being fully aware of what happened last time so it’s not like he’d be holding back against her.

I had mentioned this to Brackish earlier, but the fight between Korra and Vaatu says otherwise.

Vaatu in this fight is seen to be even less on the offensive against Korra than he was with Wan. The fight pretty much consisted of Vaatu just dodging Korras attacks, blasting her ONE time with a spirit ray, & then restraining her in spirit vines, before Unalaq and him fused. This, if anything, shows Vaatu was just stalling for time for Unalaq to come back and was less inclined with actually fighting Korra. If he were serious in trying to attack or destroy her, this wouldn’t have been the case.

Not to mention, while I see your point, it is highly in character for Vaatu to still have the same overconfidence as he did during Wans Harmonic Convergence. He was still highly confident that he’d permanently destroy Raava after getting free. The only thing that taken him by surprise was her & Wan fusing together, and that wasn’t a problem the second time because of Unalaqs assistance.

But let’s just steelman that Vaatu was weakened during LoK

Just want to clarify so there’s no confusion, my argument isn’t that Vaatu got weakened in Korras era. My argument is about Vaatu not fighting her or Wan seriously because of Raavas condition.

Wan would still have to scale at the bare minimum since that is one thing that cannot be disputed since he fights on par with/completely overwhelms Vaatu at his peak (short of Raava being temporarily destroyed).

Please see above

Even saying that Vaatu was holding back for whatever reason against Wan once Raava possessed him, he still ran away when they fused

When did this happen?

and couldn’t do anything once Wan put him in a ball before stuffing him in the tree. Said ball being AS Wan’s bending … aka his AP and tier.

The elemental sphere was a seal placed on Vaatu & the Tree of Time, confining him to a barrier. Sealing is not AP.

And not to mention, again, this counter argument suggests Tiny Raava, WEAKER than her prime state, is capable of matching an Enhanced Vaatu, who is ABOVE his prime state

Which…is completely wrong and goes against the whole narrative on why Wan and Raava needed to combine in the first place.

And has superior feats to Raava and Vaatu themselves.

? No he doesn’t. The “superior feats” is just Wan scaling to Raava because the Avatar State is a boost that draws on her power from the avatar spirit.

Someone else also said something about no Avatar showing off the kind of power such scaling to Tui and La implies which is just … the worst kind of logic to apply here.

Why are you mentioning this though? I never claimed this in the OP.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

The problem from this however isn’t just because both have regen to “fix damage” (which, as we saw presented, was small holes incurred on their bodies by bending blasts at best)

Except it’s not “small holes”, which changes nothing since that is still > anything Raava and Vaatu do to each other. What part of Korra vs Vaatu is small. Both that and Wan vs Vaatu involve damn well cutting Vaatu in half lmao and it’s only the last screen shot that is actual AS Wan, the rest are pseudo-AS.

Vaatu wasn’t overpowered, matched in power or had any reason whatsoever to even fight against them seriously, BECAUSE of the fact that Raava got drastically depowered during Wans harmonic convergence. Raava in her prime had kept Vaatu restrained enough to keep him under lock and key until Wan interfered with them, and by influencing dark spirits to shift the balance of light/darkness, Vaatu became incredibly confident that he would’ve permanently destroyed Raava in her weakened state

(Even though realistically, we as the viewers, know that’s impossible for one to forever destroy the other)

Great, so we agree that Vaatu doesn’t know what he is talking about half the time and has simply gotten stronger to an unquantifiable degree.

Even if we ignore the fact that Vaatu was beating pseudo Wan around like a ragdoll, and barely went on the offensive against Korra before Unalaq fused with him

Rewatch the fight, he pinballed base Wan, managed a single hit on pseudo-AS when he wasn’t in the middle of dying, could only clip the nimbus cloud a few times, got weaves without even being seen several times more, cut in half and had giant holes blasted through him with every element.

There is no reason for Vaatu to use anything close to full power against a significantly depowered Raava, or their vessels.

Ah yes, he just chose to be cut in half, turned into Swiss cheese, and bend over backwards to fit his body to the ball of elements instead of breaking out. Truly, it was all part of his insidious plan …

Not to mention, what I bolded out from your response here also answers the question on why they shouldn’t scale. If Prime Raava & Prime Vaatu, as equals, struggled for supremacy over the other for 10,000 years, why would an even weaker Raava, who became so depowered that Wan had to carry her in his teapot, be anywhere close to the power of an ENHANCED Vaatu after influencing dark spirits? That makes no sense.

Because the AS isn’t Raava + her host??? Something it very clearly isn’t given every single feat from the people she merged with against Vaatu. Nothing ever says that AS = Raava’s power + Avatar’s power, that weakened Raava possessing a bender is weaker than Prime Raava, or that Vaatu is holding back. Those are all things you are assuming or implying to be the case and have no basis for.

As I mentioned above, this at best is causing small punctured holes in Vaatus body, which we visibly seen, didn’t slow Vaatu down or anything similar. Having regen is one thing, but growing tired or exhausted after continuous use of it is another. The latter we don’t see from Vaatu.

Why does Vaatu’s stamina matter at all? He is getting harmed and he regens from it. Are you telling me that if X vaporises Y’s head and they regen from it without getting tired, X’s AP doesn’t scale to Y’s durability?

Plus, more importantly, there’s the matter of Vaatu holding back as I also mention above.

Please present the scan or evidence for Vaatu holding back that isn’t “weakened Raava AS can’t scale to Vaatu”.

I had mentioned this to Brackish earlier, but the fight between Korra and Vaatu says otherwise.

Vaatu in this fight is seen to be even less on the offensive against Korra than he was with Wan. The fight pretty much consisted of Vaatu just dodging Korras attacks, blasting her ONE time with a spirit ray, & then restraining her in spirit vines, before Unalaq and him fused. This, if anything, shows Vaatu was just stalling for time for Unalaq to come back and was less inclined with actually fighting Korra. If he were serious in trying to attack or destroy her, this wouldn’t have been the case.

… the fact that Vaatu is wary of Korra literally proves she and Wan are stronger than or scale to him at the very least? Why in god’s name would he be wary of or play defensively against someone you are claiming is inferior to him to such an absurd degree?

Not to mention, while I see your point, it is highly in character for Vaatu to still have the same overconfidence as he did during Wans Harmonic Convergence. He was still highly confident that he’d permanently destroy Raava after getting free. The only thing that taken him by surprise was her & Wan fusing together, and that wasn’t a problem the second time because of Unalaqs assistance.

How can you say this after saying he was being defensive against her? If he is so much stronger as you are arguing, why was he about to be stuffed into the tree all over again?

Just want to clarify so there’s no confusion, my argument isn’t that Vaatu got weakened in Korras era. My argument is about Vaatu not fighting her or Wan seriously because of Raavas condition.

The fact that he lost twice, with the second time involving him having knowledge of what the Avatar can do, completely contradicts your argument though.

Please see above


When did this happen?

When Wan touches the Harmonic Convergence, Vaatu runs away from the light and Wan immediately slaps him with water, cuts him in half with fire, makes him do a backflip with rocks and then puts him in the ball. His caution was well deserved even if it didn’t do anything but prolong his L for another 3 seconds.

The elemental sphere was a seal placed on Vaatu & the Tree of Time, confining him to a barrier. Sealing is not AP.

The sphere isn’t a seal at all unless we are saying Toph sinking someone into the ground is “sealing” them … which, even if it does, still doesn’t change the fact that his bending is what is responsible for keeping Vaatu contained. Both Korra and Wan contain him with just the air before applying the other elements, forcibly bending his body to fit inside.

And not to mention, again, this counter argument suggests Tiny Raava, WEAKER than her prime state, is capable of matching an Enhanced Vaatu, who is ABOVE his prime state

Which…is completely wrong and goes against the whole narrative on why Wan and Raava needed to combine in the first place.

Exactly, it’s not just weakened Raava, it’s Raava inhabiting Wan and Korra. AS is what scales above, not weakened Raava.

? No he doesn’t. The “superior feats” is just Wan scaling to Raava because the Avatar State is a boost that draws on her power from the avatar spirit.

He literally does. Pseudo-AS and AS are both shown to do more damage to Vaatu’s body than a weaker Vaatu or Raava could do to each other. Just because Raava is responsible for the AS doesn’t mean the AS is capped to weakened Raava or even Raava in general. Feats and showings directly contradict this stance.

Why are you mentioning this though? I never claimed this in the OP.

Ah, that wasn’t at you. Just pointing out that such reasoning is wrong and goes against basically every profile we have on the wiki. Sorry for any confusion.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

The sphere isn’t a seal at all unless we are saying Toph sinking someone into the ground is “sealing” them … which, even if it does, still doesn’t change the fact that his bending is what is responsible for keeping Vaatu contained. Both Korra and Wan contain him with just the air before applying the other elements, forcibly bending his body to fit inside.

I definitely disagree with your point here; Vaatu was able to tank all of the avatar's respective attacks but the fact that he wasn't able to do anything in the sphere (with no visible attempt of him fighting back) suggests that he was being held in place as part of a sealing process ...Which, you know, ends with him being trapped in a tree for 10,000 years.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

I definitely disagree with your point here; Vaatu was able to tank all of the avatar's respective attacks but the fact that he wasn't able to do anything in the sphere (with no visible attempt of him fighting back) suggests that he was being held in place as part of a sealing process/perhaps a pseudo form of energybending ...Which, you know, ends with him being trapped in a tree for 10,000 years.

He tanks nothing. 85% of the times he is hit by an Avatar, he gets parts of his body blown out while the other 15% is him getting ragdolled like a dog with a chew toy. He already couldn’t do anything after being placed in the air ball before all of the other elements got slapped on so it’s hardly some special hax from using all 4. This only means that Wan and Korra’s airbending stops Vaatu in his tracks and is stronger than him coughmyentireargumentcough.

 

[KingTempest]

If this is still open for discussion, then I can say that the avatars definitely shouldn't all be 5-C.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

If this is still open for discussion, then I can say that the avatars definitely shouldn't all be 5-C.

I'm pretty sure Kyoshi's island feat is the highest feat prior to harmonic convergence, so most of them should go back to being low 6-b. Aang combined with La should be high 6-a, not necessarily 5-c since nothing is stated that Tui and La have to be exactly equal in power.