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It's been a while everyone. Havent done one of these in sometime, but figured this would be a good way to get the rust off a little bit.

So as the title says, this is a misc revision for the Avatars & god tiers of the verse, who are currently rated at 5-C. This happened in this upgrade thread for the Avatars sometime ago, and for these following reasons to sum it up:
  • Tui and La are the moon and ocean spirit respectively.
  • This is considered literal since upon their death, the moon disappeared. So they're considered 6-A.
  • This was later considered 5-C.
  • In Aang's fused form with the moon spirit, he is considered the same tier.
  • Raava and Vaatu are considered superior to the moon spirits, so they are the same tier.
  • The Avatar State scales to Raava and Vaatu, so they are considered the same tier.
At sometime later, a downgrade thread in an attempt to overturn these upgrades was made. Which for the most part, was rejected. After reading through the thread & seeing how the upgrades were applied, this made me want to make a new thread to discuss some revisions I had suggested. So i'll get right to the point on why im making this thread.

Now, all of these reasons for the upgrade are completely solid & sound. In fact, I wholeheartedly agree with it and the logic for it. The problem, however, is that I don't completely agree with how the scaling is actually being applied. Basically, I agree with the upgrades, but not everyone who's been upgraded should be getting this upgrade. From how the upgrade is applied, I see that every Avatar is given a 5-C rating via the Avatar State from this scaling. Thats where I disagree with this.

@DarkDragonMedeus in the downgrade thread had mentioned this point that I originally sided with back when these upgrades were initially discussed.

Well, I wasn't sure about the Avatar always being 5-C in the avatar state. IIRC, most avatars are only empowered by a small portian of Raava's power due to having a mini version of her in them. So I don't think that being in the avatar state makes them fully scale. Also, Wan rescuing Vaatu from Raava is more so him causing a distraction. Much like what Vegeta did to Cell. But a fully mastered Avatar state from Korra who was empowered by a fully awakened Raava should easily be above the Ocean and Moon Spirits. Also, the Ocean Spirit still has their own High 6-A feats combined with being the Yin to Ocean Spirit's Yang.

Pretty much this. But i'll go into more details.

Basically, before the upgrades actually happened in the first place, the initial idea I proposed when first agreeing to upscale Raava & Vaatu from Tui/La, was that only Korra and Unalaq should be upgraded to 5-C. Wan, Aang, Roku, Kyoshi & every Avatar prior to Korra shouldn’t be scaling to the full extent of Raavas power, since they never had a fully powered Raava inside of them in the first place. Only a mini weakened version of her when Raava was depowered during Wans Harmonic Convergence. Korra is the only Avatar who has fused with Raava when she’s back at her full power. Same thing goes for Unalaq & Vaatu. So only those 2 should get the 5-C rating. To better explain why:

Raava and Vaatu are the forces of light & darkness in the Avatar universe, both are influenced in a way where when one grows stronger, the other grows weaker.



Before the start of Wan's Harmonic Convergence, Vaatu grows far more powerful than normal because of his influence over turning spirits into Dark Spirits. Meanwhile, Raava is depowered to the point where she struggles to even move & needs Wan's help in carrying her around.



Once confronting Vaatu in battle, Wan pretty much has no chance against him. Vaatu easily shrugs off Wan's bending & blasts him around like a ragdoll. Even when merging with a weakened Raava, Vaatu maintains the upperhand, to the point where Wan needs to seal him away into the Tree of Time after permanently fusing with Raava.



This means, Wan became the first Avatar by fusing with a tiny weakened Raava, and every avatar after him up to Korra, get their power from this Raava in the Avatar State. After Korra defeats UnaVaatu, she refuses together with Raava when shes back to her original size & power, something no Avatar before her has done.



So as you see, only Korra has the power of a full strength Raava and Unalaq for Vaatu. Them being upgraded to 5-C makes perfect sense and I agree with it wholeheartedly. But when it comes to a weakened Raava and other Avatars? There's really no good justification as to why they should also receive the upgrade.

"But Wan and Korra were still able to fight Vaatu in the Avatar State with Tiny Raava, so they and all Avatars in the AS should be 5-C"

Now, I did read the initial upgrade thread and saw this as for why all Avatars got the upgrade. The problem however, is that narratively speaking, this doesn’t really make any sense.

As I mentioned above, Wan was getting overpowered quite easily by Vaatu when they were fighting. Even when fusing with Raava. And he didn’t really even cause Vaatu any significant harm or whatnot after doing that. Avatar State Wan was forced to seal Vaatu in the Tree of Time as a last resort option to stop him as his only means outside of an actual battle.

More importantly, the entire point behind Raava and Wan needing to fuse is BECAUSE Raava became so weakened by separating with Vaatu that she could no longer contend in battle with him herself for Harmonic Convergence. Raava getting depowered to such a degree at that point made Vaatu incredibly confident in winning this encounter quite easily. So even if we go with the idea of Wan fighting Vaatu to some comparable extent, there’s ample reason to argue Vaatu wasn’t fighting against him or depowered Raava seriously to actually warrant a full 5-C rating. The same thing goes for Korra fighting Vaatu as well.

So in all, every Avatar who isn't Korra or Unalaq should be downgraded from 5-C, and weakened Raava shouldn't be considered 5-C either.

"So, where would the other Avatars be rated at instead?"

There are other options as to how other Avatars can be rated at instead. They could be downgraded back to Low 6-B via scaling from Kyoshi's Island Separating feat in the Avatar State.

However, another option I believe is arguable is that we could still possibly keep them at High 6-A, or somewhere around there, by scaling Weakened Raava to Harmonic Convergence. I saw in the downgrade thread arguments about how Harmonic Convergence can't be scaled to for it being "a cosmic event" that's unaffiliated with Raava or Vaatu, but I disagree with this immensely.

First off, Harmonic Convergence in the Avatarverse does indeed have to do with Raava and Vaatu, to at least some extent, that would allow for scaling. Vaatu & Raava in the first place are the ones who originally caused the human and spirit realms to be connected by breaking through the divide between those dimensions, creating the spirit portals (Vaatu also confirms this in his fight with Wan). But more importantly, the spirit portals themselves are just spiritual energy connecting the 2 worlds. We know this because when Harmonic Convergence happens, and when both portals are open, spiritual energy becomes greatly amplified through them.



When amplified during Harmonic Convergence, we see in the fight with Wan that both Raava and Vaatu have a reaction to said spiritual energy.

IMG_7839.png

IMG_7840.png

IMG_7841.png

IMG_7843.png

IMG_7842.png


In addition, when we see Korra fight against Kuvira later in Book 4, we even see that the spirit portal she created was done with energybending the spirit energy of Kuvira's cannon.

Even if Raava & Vaatu wouldnt have created the spirit portals for Harmonic Convergence, there is still also the fact that Vaatu, while imprisoned by Wan's seal in the Tree of Time, was able to use the amplified spiritual energy of HC to break free from it. Energy that was spreading all across the planet, shaking it, and even doing things like wiping away the planets clouds.

And as confirmed by Korra, the very energy of the planet was also shifted by Harmonic Convergence.

At this point, for several different reasons, Harmonic Convergence in Avatar makes significant use of spiritual energy on a scale that should, one way or another, allow for tiering all on it's own. And since the event is largely just amplifying spiritual energy, energy that Raava and Vaatu can use, there is no reason why they can't scale to it. They don't have to be the main cause of HC in order to scale from it.

"How would Weakened Raava scale from Harmonic Convergence?"

Simply put, even though Raava was weakened during Wan's Harmonic Convergence, the seal Avatar State Wan placed on Vaatu and the Tree of Time was still powerful enough that only the amplified energy of HC could break it. Thus, you could argue that weakened Raava >= the energy given off by Harmonic Convergence.

In addition, a supporting feat can also be that the Avatar is capable of opening/closing the spirit portals while in the Avatar State. Even while Harmonic Convergence is going on (evidenced by Wan being able to after sealing Vaatu).

TLDR:

The upgrade is 100% fine. But the scaling is what needs to be changed.

Korra, Unalaq, Full powered Raava & Vaatu, Tui & La, and of course Aang's Koizilla form key can stay 5-C. But every other Avatar should be downgraded from 5-C to another suitable tier.

Agree: 9 (DarkDragonMedeus, @IdiosyncraticLawyer, @Dalesean027, @ByAsura, @Marvel_Champion_07, @Maverick_Zero_X, @DemonicDude, @Excel616, @Testarossa002)

Disagree:

Neutral:
 
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I mostly agree with KuKui here. But what would Vaatu 's tiering be during his fight with Wan and Korra? Despite him being more powerful then Raava in both, I don't think it would be a whole tier ahead cause Korra managed to match Vaatu and was even about to re-seal him before Unalaq interfered. And the fact that the dark avatar wasn't able to one-shot Korra (until he grew giant, that is).
 
I mostly agree with KuKui here. But what would Vaatu 's tiering be during his fight with Wan and Korra? Despite him being more powerful then Raava in both, I don't think it would be a whole tier ahead cause Korra managed to match Vaatu and was even about to re-seal him before Unalaq interfered. And the fact that the dark avatar wasn't able to one-shot Korra (until he grew giant, that is).

Well as I had mentioned, Vaatu also could’ve just been holding back against Korra. Like it was against Wan, Vaatu wouldn’t have had any reason to fight against her seriously because of the continued difference in power between him and Raava. Plus, Korras attacks against Vaatu were more or less just shrugged off.

As for Unalaq, IIRC, Unalaq was only getting matched by Korra when he wasn’t in the Dark Avatar State. Before he turned in UnaVaatu anyway.
 
I do think it's worth considering that Vaatu wasn't at his max power when he was fighting Wan either. hen he defeated Raava in Korra's time, that's when he reached his max strength (the narrator even called him "the most powerful dark spirit that ever lived").
 
I do think it's worth considering that Vaatu wasn't at his max power when he was fighting Wan either. hen he defeated Raava in Korra's time, that's when he reached his max strength (the narrator even called him "the most powerful dark spirit that ever lived").
This isn’t true. By “max”, you mean not at UnaVaatu levels? Sure. But he was definitely stronger than he normally was because Wan separated him from Raava and by turning spirits dark, he grew stronger and made Raava weaker.

Think of Raava and Vaatu as like scales. When Raava restrained them, they were equally normal. When Wan separated them, the scales tipped in Vaatus favor. Then when influencing dark spirits, the scales tipped even more

And then when Raava was destroyed, leaving her in a non corporeal regenerative state, Vaatu was more powerful than ever as UnaVaatu.
 
Yes, that's what I meant by max power; when their counterpart has been destroyed. What I'm trying to clarify is when exactly does Vaatu hit 5-c? Cause it definitely occurs by the time of the blue KorraxUnavaatu fight, but what about before then?

I think we should also take into account that Raava during Korra's fight with Vaatu could have been slightly stronger then she was during the previous HC. After all, peace had been prevalent throughout the world for the past 10,000 years. And although there are lots of dark spirits about during Korra book 2, I don't think there's quite as many as there were during Wan's time, when Vaatu was flying about infecting every spirit he could see. There's also the fact when Vaatu Rips Raava out of Korra, Raava isn't quite as small as she was when she fused with Wan, implying that she got some power back.
 
"prevalent peace" is watering it down tbh.

Wan literally died on a battlefield.

The 100 years we had the privilege of witnessing in the story was marred with Fire Nation offensive against the remaining nations.
 
Yes, that's what I meant by max power; when their counterpart has been destroyed. What I'm trying to clarify is when exactly does Vaatu hit 5-c? Cause it definitely occurs by the time of the blue KorraxUnavaatu fight, but what about before then?

His normal level of power should be 5-C then, since Wans era. We know that Raava and Vaatu are normally considered the god tiers of the verse, as even when they’re both practically at normal equal strength, they’re still considered “the all powerful spirits”.

And unlike Raava, Vaatus power has never lowered past his normal strength level.

I think we should also take into account that Raava during Korra's fight with Vaatu could have been slightly stronger then she was during the previous HC. After all, peace had been prevalent throughout the world for the past 10,000 years.
This maybe possible. But to what extent is pretty unclear. After all, we know evil and darkness still existed throughout humanity after Vaatu was sealed. Wan confirmed this.

Not only to that, but things like dark spirits still existed (as confirmed with Yangchen & Kuruks backstories)

Not to mention, Raava was still quite small as she was in Wans era when Unalaq ripped her out of Korras body.

There's also the fact when Vaatu Rips Raava out of Korra, Raava isn't quite as small as she was when she fused with Wan, implying that she got some power back.
I mean, not really? During Korras time, Raavas small enough to barely be bigger than hers or Unalaqs hand.


IMG_7846.png

IMG_7845.png
 
Okay. In any case, I think it becomes too assumptious and requires more leaps in logic to try scaling a weakened Raava to the the tier of a normal powered Vaatu, let alone an enhanced one.

And while it’s absolutely certain & safe to upscale Raava and Vaatu to 5-C above Tui & La, we have no evidence that it would remain the same for them when they are in a weakened state.

Hence why I think it’s safer & more reliable to scale tiny Raavas power to things like either Kyoshis island feat (in which uses tinys raavas power as a boost in AS), or the amplified spirit energy of Harmonic Convergence, which can be argued to be inferior to even tiny raavas power.
 
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For reference, it was mostly because Aang says 'I felt as powerful as I have ever felt' after absorbing the Moon Spirit.

Otherwise, I guess I agree.

If the quote is still applicable, what this would do is massively increase the scaling chain for peak Avatar State, Raava and Vaatu.

Also, we determined it to be High 6-A rather than 5-C due to lack of evidence for stabilisation. What they scale to is tidal force.
 
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For reference, it was mostly because Aang says 'I felt as powerful as I have ever felt' after absorbing the Moon Spirit.

Otherwise, I guess I agree.

If the quote is still applicable, what this would do is massively increase the scaling chain for peak Avatar State, Raava and Vaatu.

Also, we determined it to be High 6-A rather than 5-C due to lack of evidence for stabilisation. What they scale to is tidal force.
Unless I read it wrong, was “Possibly 5-C” supposed to still be on the table but the thread died before coming to agree with it?
 
My main points that I brought up were
  • Statements from Nick.com and the ttrpg that Tui and La were passively letting off energy even when they were just in their fish forms
  • The fact that the moon didn't immediately come back when La was brought back to life; it only appeared after Yue said goodbye to Sokka. Which means that it couldn't be directly tied to La's life-force, but reappeared through La's power.
  • A quote from Bataar Jr. in Legend of Korra that spiritual energy can be measured by how powerful it is.
 
Hmm. I see.
I don't think so, but I did leave the thread.

What do you think of the points Brackish suggested?


My main points that I brought up were
  • Statements from Nick.com and the ttrpg that Tui and La were passively letting off energy even when they were just in their fish forms
  • The fact that the moon didn't immediately come back when La was brought back to life; it only appeared after Yue said goodbye to Sokka. Which means that it couldn't be directly tied to La's life-force, but reappeared through La's power.
  • A quote from Bataar Jr. in Legend of Korra that spiritual energy can be measured by how powerful it is.
 
Considering that thread lost steam and none of the other staff who have responded seem to have a problem with 5-C post book 2 Korra in the AS, I don't see why suddenly going back to it is necessary.
 
Considering that thread lost steam and none of the other staff who have responded seem to have a problem with 5-C post book 2 Korra in the AS, I don't see why suddenly going back to it is necessary.
The problem moreso is that halfway into the thread, there was contention against the actual rating being 5-C instead of High 6-A because of the supposed lack of proving they stabilize the moon. According to @ByAsura anyway.

That’s why I asked if there was any supporting arguments for stabilization.
 
Well, the second point I made is pretty much a creation feat since La/Yue made the moon pop back into existence.

There's also the canonical Escape from the Spirit World web cartoon which shows that the moon exists in the spirit world and that Yue controls it there too.
 
Well, the second point I made is pretty much a creation feat since La/Yue made the moon pop back into existence.

There's also the canonical Escape from the Spirit World web cartoon which shows that the moon exists in the spirit world and that Yue controls it there too.
Wait, the spirit world also has a moon? Wouldn’t that make it at least 5-C+ sized then?
 
Wait, the spirit world also has a moon? Wouldn’t that make it at least 5-C+ sized then?
I suppose so. Problem is, distance works differently in the spirit world then it does in the physical world, and the world itself is pretty malleable. I feel like it would be unquantifiable. Though the fact that Yue was able to exert her influence there and not just in the physical world shows that it should at least be greater then the moon's influence on our world's tides.

Here's a link to it. Yue appears around 1:00
 
I suppose so. Problem is, distance works differently in the spirit world then it does in the physical world, and the world itself is pretty malleable. I feel like it would be unquantifiable. Though the fact that Yue was able to exert her influence there and not just in the physical world shows that it should at least be greater then the moon's influence on our world's tides.

Here's a link to it. Yue appears around 1:00

I see. Though I mainly asked because if that’s the case, this could probably help to support 5-C for Raava and Vaatu.

Raava did imply to Wan that the world could even possibly cease to exist after freeing Vaatu from her grip.
 
Btw it’s been a while since being on the site, but I’m told there’s new standards as to how many staff users are needed to push a revision through.

How many is needed? So far we have 6 in agreement with this.
 
I brought this up by the way

Raava did imply to Wan that the world could even possibly cease to exist after freeing Vaatu from her grip.
If we take this literally as Raava suggested, Vaatu would be implied to be capable of destroying both the human and spirit worlds entirely.

Assuming the moon spirit feat still reach 5-C, what about this?
 
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