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It's been a while everyone. Havent done one of these in sometime, but figured this would be a good way to get the rust off a little bit.
So as the title says, this is a misc revision for the Avatars & god tiers of the verse, who are currently rated at 5-C. This happened in this upgrade thread for the Avatars sometime ago, and for these following reasons to sum it up:
Now, all of these reasons for the upgrade are completely solid & sound. In fact, I wholeheartedly agree with it and the logic for it. The problem, however, is that I don't completely agree with how the scaling is actually being applied. Basically, I agree with the upgrades, but not everyone who's been upgraded should be getting this upgrade. From how the upgrade is applied, I see that every Avatar is given a 5-C rating via the Avatar State from this scaling. Thats where I disagree with this.
@DarkDragonMedeus in the downgrade thread had mentioned this point that I originally sided with back when these upgrades were initially discussed.
Pretty much this. But i'll go into more details.
Basically, before the upgrades actually happened in the first place, the initial idea I proposed when first agreeing to upscale Raava & Vaatu from Tui/La, was that only Korra and Unalaq should be upgraded to 5-C. Wan, Aang, Roku, Kyoshi & every Avatar prior to Korra shouldn’t be scaling to the full extent of Raavas power, since they never had a fully powered Raava inside of them in the first place. Only a mini weakened version of her when Raava was depowered during Wans Harmonic Convergence. Korra is the only Avatar who has fused with Raava when she’s back at her full power. Same thing goes for Unalaq & Vaatu. So only those 2 should get the 5-C rating. To better explain why:
Raava and Vaatu are the forces of light & darkness in the Avatar universe, both are influenced in a way where when one grows stronger, the other grows weaker.
Before the start of Wan's Harmonic Convergence, Vaatu grows far more powerful than normal because of his influence over turning spirits into Dark Spirits. Meanwhile, Raava is depowered to the point where she struggles to even move & needs Wan's help in carrying her around.
Once confronting Vaatu in battle, Wan pretty much has no chance against him. Vaatu easily shrugs off Wan's bending & blasts him around like a ragdoll. Even when merging with a weakened Raava, Vaatu maintains the upperhand, to the point where Wan needs to seal him away into the Tree of Time after permanently fusing with Raava.
This means, Wan became the first Avatar by fusing with a tiny weakened Raava, and every avatar after him up to Korra, get their power from this Raava in the Avatar State. After Korra defeats UnaVaatu, she refuses together with Raava when shes back to her original size & power, something no Avatar before her has done.
So as you see, only Korra has the power of a full strength Raava and Unalaq for Vaatu. Them being upgraded to 5-C makes perfect sense and I agree with it wholeheartedly. But when it comes to a weakened Raava and other Avatars? There's really no good justification as to why they should also receive the upgrade.
"But Wan and Korra were still able to fight Vaatu in the Avatar State with Tiny Raava, so they and all Avatars in the AS should be 5-C"
Now, I did read the initial upgrade thread and saw this as for why all Avatars got the upgrade. The problem however, is that narratively speaking, this doesn’t really make any sense.
As I mentioned above, Wan was getting overpowered quite easily by Vaatu when they were fighting. Even when fusing with Raava. And he didn’t really even cause Vaatu any significant harm or whatnot after doing that. Avatar State Wan was forced to seal Vaatu in the Tree of Time as a last resort option to stop him as his only means outside of an actual battle.
More importantly, the entire point behind Raava and Wan needing to fuse is BECAUSE Raava became so weakened by separating with Vaatu that she could no longer contend in battle with him herself for Harmonic Convergence. Raava getting depowered to such a degree at that point made Vaatu incredibly confident in winning this encounter quite easily. So even if we go with the idea of Wan fighting Vaatu to some comparable extent, there’s ample reason to argue Vaatu wasn’t fighting against him or depowered Raava seriously to actually warrant a full 5-C rating. The same thing goes for Korra fighting Vaatu as well.
So in all, every Avatar who isn't Korra or Unalaq should be downgraded from 5-C, and weakened Raava shouldn't be considered 5-C either.
"So, where would the other Avatars be rated at instead?"
There are other options as to how other Avatars can be rated at instead. They could be downgraded back to Low 6-B via scaling from Kyoshi's Island Separating feat in the Avatar State.
However, another option I believe is arguable is that we could still possibly keep them at High 6-A, or somewhere around there, by scaling Weakened Raava to Harmonic Convergence. I saw in the downgrade thread arguments about how Harmonic Convergence can't be scaled to for it being "a cosmic event" that's unaffiliated with Raava or Vaatu, but I disagree with this immensely.
First off, Harmonic Convergence in the Avatarverse does indeed have to do with Raava and Vaatu, to at least some extent, that would allow for scaling. Vaatu & Raava in the first place are the ones who originally caused the human and spirit realms to be connected by breaking through the divide between those dimensions, creating the spirit portals (Vaatu also confirms this in his fight with Wan). But more importantly, the spirit portals themselves are just spiritual energy connecting the 2 worlds. We know this because when Harmonic Convergence happens, and when both portals are open, spiritual energy becomes greatly amplified through them.
When amplified during Harmonic Convergence, we see in the fight with Wan that both Raava and Vaatu have a reaction to said spiritual energy.
In addition, when we see Korra fight against Kuvira later in Book 4, we even see that the spirit portal she created was done with energybending the spirit energy of Kuvira's cannon.
Even if Raava & Vaatu wouldnt have created the spirit portals for Harmonic Convergence, there is still also the fact that Vaatu, while imprisoned by Wan's seal in the Tree of Time, was able to use the amplified spiritual energy of HC to break free from it. Energy that was spreading all across the planet, shaking it, and even doing things like wiping away the planets clouds.
And as confirmed by Korra, the very energy of the planet was also shifted by Harmonic Convergence.
At this point, for several different reasons, Harmonic Convergence in Avatar makes significant use of spiritual energy on a scale that should, one way or another, allow for tiering all on it's own. And since the event is largely just amplifying spiritual energy, energy that Raava and Vaatu can use, there is no reason why they can't scale to it. They don't have to be the main cause of HC in order to scale from it.
"How would Weakened Raava scale from Harmonic Convergence?"
Simply put, even though Raava was weakened during Wan's Harmonic Convergence, the seal Avatar State Wan placed on Vaatu and the Tree of Time was still powerful enough that only the amplified energy of HC could break it. Thus, you could argue that weakened Raava >= the energy given off by Harmonic Convergence.
In addition, a supporting feat can also be that the Avatar is capable of opening/closing the spirit portals while in the Avatar State. Even while Harmonic Convergence is going on (evidenced by Wan being able to after sealing Vaatu).
TLDR:
The upgrade is 100% fine. But the scaling is what needs to be changed.
Korra, Unalaq, Full powered Raava & Vaatu, Tui & La, and of course Aang's Koizilla form key can stay 5-C. But every other Avatar should be downgraded from 5-C to another suitable tier.
Agree: 9 (DarkDragonMedeus, @IdiosyncraticLawyer, @Dalesean027, @ByAsura, @Marvel_Champion_07, @Maverick_Zero_X, @DemonicDude, @Excel616, @Testarossa002)
Disagree:
Neutral:
So as the title says, this is a misc revision for the Avatars & god tiers of the verse, who are currently rated at 5-C. This happened in this upgrade thread for the Avatars sometime ago, and for these following reasons to sum it up:
- Tui and La are the moon and ocean spirit respectively.
- This is considered literal since upon their death, the moon disappeared. So they're considered 6-A.
- This was later considered 5-C.
- In Aang's fused form with the moon spirit, he is considered the same tier.
- Raava and Vaatu are considered superior to the moon spirits, so they are the same tier.
- The Avatar State scales to Raava and Vaatu, so they are considered the same tier.
Now, all of these reasons for the upgrade are completely solid & sound. In fact, I wholeheartedly agree with it and the logic for it. The problem, however, is that I don't completely agree with how the scaling is actually being applied. Basically, I agree with the upgrades, but not everyone who's been upgraded should be getting this upgrade. From how the upgrade is applied, I see that every Avatar is given a 5-C rating via the Avatar State from this scaling. Thats where I disagree with this.
@DarkDragonMedeus in the downgrade thread had mentioned this point that I originally sided with back when these upgrades were initially discussed.
Pretty much this. But i'll go into more details.
Basically, before the upgrades actually happened in the first place, the initial idea I proposed when first agreeing to upscale Raava & Vaatu from Tui/La, was that only Korra and Unalaq should be upgraded to 5-C. Wan, Aang, Roku, Kyoshi & every Avatar prior to Korra shouldn’t be scaling to the full extent of Raavas power, since they never had a fully powered Raava inside of them in the first place. Only a mini weakened version of her when Raava was depowered during Wans Harmonic Convergence. Korra is the only Avatar who has fused with Raava when she’s back at her full power. Same thing goes for Unalaq & Vaatu. So only those 2 should get the 5-C rating. To better explain why:
Raava and Vaatu are the forces of light & darkness in the Avatar universe, both are influenced in a way where when one grows stronger, the other grows weaker.
Before the start of Wan's Harmonic Convergence, Vaatu grows far more powerful than normal because of his influence over turning spirits into Dark Spirits. Meanwhile, Raava is depowered to the point where she struggles to even move & needs Wan's help in carrying her around.
Once confronting Vaatu in battle, Wan pretty much has no chance against him. Vaatu easily shrugs off Wan's bending & blasts him around like a ragdoll. Even when merging with a weakened Raava, Vaatu maintains the upperhand, to the point where Wan needs to seal him away into the Tree of Time after permanently fusing with Raava.
This means, Wan became the first Avatar by fusing with a tiny weakened Raava, and every avatar after him up to Korra, get their power from this Raava in the Avatar State. After Korra defeats UnaVaatu, she refuses together with Raava when shes back to her original size & power, something no Avatar before her has done.
So as you see, only Korra has the power of a full strength Raava and Unalaq for Vaatu. Them being upgraded to 5-C makes perfect sense and I agree with it wholeheartedly. But when it comes to a weakened Raava and other Avatars? There's really no good justification as to why they should also receive the upgrade.
"But Wan and Korra were still able to fight Vaatu in the Avatar State with Tiny Raava, so they and all Avatars in the AS should be 5-C"
Now, I did read the initial upgrade thread and saw this as for why all Avatars got the upgrade. The problem however, is that narratively speaking, this doesn’t really make any sense.
As I mentioned above, Wan was getting overpowered quite easily by Vaatu when they were fighting. Even when fusing with Raava. And he didn’t really even cause Vaatu any significant harm or whatnot after doing that. Avatar State Wan was forced to seal Vaatu in the Tree of Time as a last resort option to stop him as his only means outside of an actual battle.
More importantly, the entire point behind Raava and Wan needing to fuse is BECAUSE Raava became so weakened by separating with Vaatu that she could no longer contend in battle with him herself for Harmonic Convergence. Raava getting depowered to such a degree at that point made Vaatu incredibly confident in winning this encounter quite easily. So even if we go with the idea of Wan fighting Vaatu to some comparable extent, there’s ample reason to argue Vaatu wasn’t fighting against him or depowered Raava seriously to actually warrant a full 5-C rating. The same thing goes for Korra fighting Vaatu as well.
So in all, every Avatar who isn't Korra or Unalaq should be downgraded from 5-C, and weakened Raava shouldn't be considered 5-C either.
"So, where would the other Avatars be rated at instead?"
There are other options as to how other Avatars can be rated at instead. They could be downgraded back to Low 6-B via scaling from Kyoshi's Island Separating feat in the Avatar State.
However, another option I believe is arguable is that we could still possibly keep them at High 6-A, or somewhere around there, by scaling Weakened Raava to Harmonic Convergence. I saw in the downgrade thread arguments about how Harmonic Convergence can't be scaled to for it being "a cosmic event" that's unaffiliated with Raava or Vaatu, but I disagree with this immensely.
First off, Harmonic Convergence in the Avatarverse does indeed have to do with Raava and Vaatu, to at least some extent, that would allow for scaling. Vaatu & Raava in the first place are the ones who originally caused the human and spirit realms to be connected by breaking through the divide between those dimensions, creating the spirit portals (Vaatu also confirms this in his fight with Wan). But more importantly, the spirit portals themselves are just spiritual energy connecting the 2 worlds. We know this because when Harmonic Convergence happens, and when both portals are open, spiritual energy becomes greatly amplified through them.
When amplified during Harmonic Convergence, we see in the fight with Wan that both Raava and Vaatu have a reaction to said spiritual energy.
In addition, when we see Korra fight against Kuvira later in Book 4, we even see that the spirit portal she created was done with energybending the spirit energy of Kuvira's cannon.
Even if Raava & Vaatu wouldnt have created the spirit portals for Harmonic Convergence, there is still also the fact that Vaatu, while imprisoned by Wan's seal in the Tree of Time, was able to use the amplified spiritual energy of HC to break free from it. Energy that was spreading all across the planet, shaking it, and even doing things like wiping away the planets clouds.
And as confirmed by Korra, the very energy of the planet was also shifted by Harmonic Convergence.
At this point, for several different reasons, Harmonic Convergence in Avatar makes significant use of spiritual energy on a scale that should, one way or another, allow for tiering all on it's own. And since the event is largely just amplifying spiritual energy, energy that Raava and Vaatu can use, there is no reason why they can't scale to it. They don't have to be the main cause of HC in order to scale from it.
"How would Weakened Raava scale from Harmonic Convergence?"
Simply put, even though Raava was weakened during Wan's Harmonic Convergence, the seal Avatar State Wan placed on Vaatu and the Tree of Time was still powerful enough that only the amplified energy of HC could break it. Thus, you could argue that weakened Raava >= the energy given off by Harmonic Convergence.
In addition, a supporting feat can also be that the Avatar is capable of opening/closing the spirit portals while in the Avatar State. Even while Harmonic Convergence is going on (evidenced by Wan being able to after sealing Vaatu).
TLDR:
The upgrade is 100% fine. But the scaling is what needs to be changed.
Korra, Unalaq, Full powered Raava & Vaatu, Tui & La, and of course Aang's Koizilla form key can stay 5-C. But every other Avatar should be downgraded from 5-C to another suitable tier.
Agree: 9 (DarkDragonMedeus, @IdiosyncraticLawyer, @Dalesean027, @ByAsura, @Marvel_Champion_07, @Maverick_Zero_X, @DemonicDude, @Excel616, @Testarossa002)
Disagree:
Neutral:
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