ATLA - 5-C Avatar is Dumb

[Ayewale]

So this thread is barely 24 hours old; trying to undo it with a CRT is probably pretty cool. But from what I can tell, literally no one showed any opposition to such a massive upgrade and the thread's been locked, so all I can do is this.

To summarize, the reasons behind the upgrade are as follows:

• Tui and La are the moon and ocean spirit respectively.
• This is considered literal since upon their death, the moon disappeared. So they're considered 6-A.
• This was later considered 5-C.
• In Aang's fused form with the moon spirit, he is considered the same tier.
• Raava and Vaatu are considered superior to the moon spirits, so they are the same tier.
• The Avatar State scales to Raava and Vaatu, so they are considered the same tier.

Overall the logic behind this change seems pretty sound, and the scaling chain makes perfect sense ( Tui & La =< Koizilla =< Raava & Vaatu < Avatar State). I guess the problem here is that the actual rating is very dumb.

The gaping problem here is that Avatar The Last Airbender is probably the worst verse one could pick to interpret literally. The spirits in particular are creatures that are supposed to be ethereal and vague, beings that are less 'literal embodiments of the earth and nature' and more 'mythical creatures with vague connections to nature'. Examples:

• Hei Bai is a spirit of a burnt down forest, but nowhere is it implied that he's the literal forest, made clear by the fact that the whole forest is burnt down but he still exists.
• General Old Iron is guardian of the shore of Mo Ce Sea. This, too, is not literal, as he tries to destroy the entire place multiple times in an attempt to get rid of the humans around, including destroying an entire city in a whole night.
  • Notably, General Old Iron straight up dies in the story he's introduced him, but no environmental destruction comes as a resul.t of this.
• The VAST majority of spirits have no explicit physical connection to the physical world, nor an implied connection (there's about two dozen examples but you get the idea) of any kind.
• The Painted Lady is a spirit of the Jang Hui River. When the river became polluted, contaminated and diseased, she simply...left the river. There is no evidence that this had any effect on her (and her leaving had no direct effect on the environment).
• One of the creators of Avatar likened spirits to "projections of pure energy that can shift into different states of matter". This is perfectly consistent with Hei Bai shapeshifting and Tui/La manifesting into fish. Being both spirits, the fish and the literal moon contradicts this (as well as everything else).

So there seems to be plenty of evidence that spirits are consistently shown to not have direct, literal connections to the environment, which includes Word of God. From a lore perspective, the spirits being 5-C is pretty dumb, but there's a bit more, too!

• The spirits being 5-C is such a massive outlier that it should've been denied on the spot.
  • We see Koizilla go outright berserk on the Fire Nation soldiers and it's not even close to 5-C.
  • The series does a good job of showing off the power of the Avatar State (many of these feats being the strongest stuff we ever see from the series) in a consistent-ish manner, and a 5-C rating is pretty much an 'ackshually, all of that is pure bullshit'.
  • Korra uses the Avatar State more liberally than Aang does, and we see pretty definitively that it's nowhere near this strong.

The TL;DR is that the thread passed way too quickly. This is why I like to keep threads open until I get some pushback, because otherwise blatantly untrue stuff passes through.

Edit: As an additional point, why is this even considered? Disregarding everything I said prior, the moon disappearing when they are killed doesn't necessarily mean that they're literally the moon; even if we assume they're connected, assuming the most direct connection possible is stupid.

Edit 2: Concerning sustaining the moon as a stabilization feat, even by the wiki's own standards it's unusable still.

From the wiki page on Stabilization Feats:

• ...Requirement 2:Prove that the stabilized structure is being directly sustained by the power of the character and not from the character's abilities, life force, existence, magical properties or any unknown connection that is independent of their statistics.
  
  ...Requirement 4: Prove that the power of the character's stabilization consistently scales to their regular statistics, similar to our standards for creation feats.
• Common Limitations:
  • The character's existence only sustains the structure.
  • The character's regular statistics aren't consistently portrayed at the level of what they sustain.
  • The character and the structure are linked by a magical or unknown component.

This is a very, very bad stabilization feat. Proving that it consistently scales to their regular statistics is blatantly impossible.

 

[ByAsura]

The gaping problem here is that Avatar The Last Airbender is probably the worst verse one could pick to interpret literally. The spirits in particular are creatures that are supposed to be ethereal and vague, beings that are less 'literal embodiments of the earth and nature' and more 'mythical creatures with vague connections to nature'. Examples:

• Hei Bai is a spirit of a burnt down forest, but nowhere is it implied that he's the literal forest, made clear by the fact that the whole forest is burnt down but he still exists.
• General Old Ironis guardian of the shore of Mo Ce Sea. This, too, is not literal, as he tries to destroy the entire place multiple times in an attempt to get rid of the humans around, including destroying an entire city in a whole night.
  • Notably, General Old Iron straight up dies in the story he's introduced him, but no environmental destruction comes as a resul.t of this.
• The VAST majority of spirits have no explicit physical connection to the physical world, nor an implied connection (there's about two dozen examples but you get the idea) of any kind.
• The Painted Lady is a spirit of the Jang Hui River. When the river became polluted, contaminated and diseased, she simply...left the river. There is no evidence that this had any effect on her (and her leaving had no direct effect on the environment).
• One of the creators of Avatar likened spirits to "projections of pure energy that can shift into different states of matter". This is perfectly consistent with Hei Bai shapeshifting and Tui/La manifesting into fish. Being both spirits, the fish and the literal moon contradicts this (as well as everything else)

This is literally just a bunch of examples where different spirits' presence and deaths affects nothing. We gave proof that it does for Tui and La in like every way.

Tui and La live fully in the normal world, explicitly maintain the eternal balance of the oceans and moon, and even harming them would **** everything up, while killing them does cause the moon to disappear. This is just far different spirits not doing that, so it doesn't matter, and there's nothing of substance to debunk.

• We see Koizilla go outright berserk on the Fire Nation soldiers and it's not even close to 5-C.

And? Koizilla wanted revenge on the people who killed Tui. That doesn't mean he'd be pulling off feats that'd wreck the planet.

• The series does a good job of showing off the power of the Avatar State (many of these feats being the strongest stuff we ever see from the series) in a consistent-ish manner, and a 5-C rating is pretty much an 'ackshually, all of that is pure bullshit'.

• Korra uses the Avatar State more liberally than Aang does, and we see pretty definitively that it's nowhere near this strong.

Not really. We have the statements that Vaatu would wreck both the Spirit and Mortal worlds at full power. And Harmonic Convergence capable of altering the entire planet is a thing.

 

[Ayewale]

This is literally just a bunch of examples where their presence and deaths affects nothing. We gave proof that it does for Tui and La in like every way.

Yeah, it's a bunch of examples of their deaths affecting nothing...to show that spiritual deaths don't physicalyl affect the environment. I am glad we agree. There's exactly one proof (the moon disappearing) and I covered that here:

Edit: As an additional point, why is this even considered? Disregarding everything I said prior, the moon disappearing when they are killed doesn't necessarily mean that they're literally the moon; even if we assume they're connected, assuming the most direct connection possible is stupid.

And? Koizilla wanted revenge on the people who killed Tui. That doesn't mean he'd be pulling off feats that'd wreck the planet.

He wouldn't be pulling off those feats because he's not that strong. There is no proof whatsoever what Koizilla was holding back other than assuming it was 5-C. If you want to prove that it's true you have to someone justify it massively nerfing itself when enraged (and why Occam's razor doesn't apply here with us just assuming 5-C is an outlier).

Not really. We have the statements that Vaatu would wreck both the Spirit and Mortal worlds at full power. And Harmonic Convergence capable of altering the entire planet is a thing.

• The Harmonic Convergence isn't applicable to use to scale anyone because it's a cosmic phenomeneon. It isn't caused by Raava or Vaatu, it's just a thing that happens every ten thousand years. This would be like scaling Fire Lord Sozin to Sozin's comet: as in, the actual ******* asteroid.
• Harmonic Convergence isn't an AP feat. All that happens is that spiritual energy increases by a totally unquantifiable amount and the spirit portals merge. At best you could say it's range is the whole earth, but again it isn't a feat in the first place, and it scales to no one.
• The statement that the realms head towards annihilation could easily be interpreted as the world being destroy by his corrupting influence (which we actually see). The spirit world's size is also unquantifiable so it shouldn't be cited here. And one statement that could be interpreted as Vaatu destroying the earth doesn't hold up against the rest of the series.
• We also see Vaatu fight multiple times and he's nowhere near 5-C. He of all characters has absolutely no reason to hold back, and if we have to start assuming literally all of a character's fight scenes are massive Plot-Induced Stupidity to justify a rating, there's a chance the rating's just wrong.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

This is literally just a bunch of examples where different spirits' presence and deaths affects nothing. We gave proof that it does for Tui and La in like every way.

Tui and La live fully in the normal world, explicitly maintain the eternal balance of the oceans and moon, and even harming them would **** everything up, while killing them does cause the moon to disappear. This is just far different spirits not doing that, so it doesn't matter, and there's nothing of substance to debunk.

Sounds like chain reaction, why does it scale to statistics when it was killed by a Xioa (Or however you say it's name) I believe?

Not really. We have the statements that Vaatu would wreck both the Spirit and Mortal worlds at full power. And Harmonic Convergence capable of altering the entire planet is a thing.

Wrecking the world can be done overtime and altering the planet in what way?

Edit: I wasn't there for the 5-C upgrade thread which is why I'm asking.

 

[Ayewale]

Sounds like chain reaction, why does it scale to statistics when it was killed by a Xioa (Or however you say it's name) I believe?

Wrecking the world can be done overtime and altering the planet in what way?

I asked this question too. We have like two dozen examples of spirits not working that way, so the assumption that it scales to their statistics is...well, an assumption, and an unfounded one at that.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Wrecking the world can be done overtime and altering the planet in what way?

It was going to happen all during Harmonic Convergence, which is a short period of time. He was going to cover the planet and the spirit world in darkness.

Sounds like chain reaction, why does it scale to statistics when it was killed by a Xioa (Or however you say it's name) I believe?

Because it's a stabilization feat, which makes Tui/the moon spirit qualify for the tier. And after Yue becomes/joins the moon spirit, she's treated like she is the literal moon.

 

[ByAsura]

Also, that thread wasn't 'barely 24 hours old.' It was made on Monday, and the changes were made less than 12 hours ago.

Yeah, it's a bunch of examples of their deaths affecting nothing...to show that spiritual deaths don't physicalyl affect the environment. I am glad we agree. There's exactly one proof (the moon disappearing) and I covered that here:

Different spirits. As you mentioned, they don't even live in the spirit world for the most part, whereas that's not true for the moon and ocean spirits.

This is literally you flying in the face of what actually happens. There is a difference here; their existence is integral to the moon and ocean and is the cause of it, unlike those other spirits you're applying here. Your point that unrelated spirits not doing this is wrong when Tui and La literally do things like make the moon disappear create tidal activity for the entire planet. I don't see what discussion there is to be had about different spirits.

• The Harmonic Convergence isn't applicable to use to scale anyone because it's a cosmic phenomeneon. It isn't caused by Raava or Vaatu, it's just a thing that happens every ten thousand years. This would be like scaling Fire Lord Sozin to Sozin's comet: as in, the actual ******* asteroid.
• Harmonic Convergence isn't an AP feat. All that happens is that spiritual energy increases by a totally unquantifiable amount and the spirit portals merge. At best you could say it's range is the whole earth, but again it isn't a feat in the first place, and it scales to no one.

I was referring to the fact that they corrupt the world and define it during this time. Which is something that does happen.

• The statement that the realms head towards annihilation could easily be interpreted as the world being destroy by his corrupting influence (which we actually see). The spirit world's size is also unquantifiable so it shouldn't be cited here. And one statement that could be interpreted as Vaatu destroying the earth doesn't hold up against the rest of the series.

Yeah, of course they aren't saying the entire world would be destroyed. But corrupting the entire planet is pretty

• We also see Vaatu fight multiple times and he's nowhere near 5-C.

He wouldn't be pulling off those feats because he's not that strong. There is no proof whatsoever what Koizilla was holding back other than assuming it was 5-C. If you want to prove that it's true you have to someone justify it massively nerfing itself when enraged (and why Occam's razor doesn't apply here with us just assuming 5-C is an outlier).

So what? We've never used that as a reason why characters should be downgraded.

By this logic, they shouldn't even be Low 6-C because they don't vaporize mountains every second during fight scenes.

Sounds like chain reaction, why does it scale to statistics when it was killed by a Xioa (Or however you say it's name) I believe?

The Koi fish are only the mortal form manifested in a lake when they came into the real world. We're shown that even stuff touched by them, like Yue, can become the moon again, and that Aang gained a much more massive control of the oceans than usual after absorbing the fish.

Wrecking the world can be done overtime and altering the planet in what way?

I'll explain later.

 

[ShivaShakti]

5-C Admiral Xiao.

 

[Apeironaxim]

I feel the fact anyone can just kill Tui and La, even a firebender like Xiao who isn't even that impressive, should be an indication that even if there is a connection between them and moon, it should not be such that they scale to that tier themselves. Even if the site usually treats these kind of things (stabilization feats) as cause to scale characters to that tier, the show here is clearly not treating it that way.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

We also see Vaatu fight multiple times and he's nowhere near 5-C

We also don't see Doomguy perform any low 1-C feats onscreen or Yhwach do anything that's 3-A. Pointless argument.

 

[ByAsura]

I feel the fact anyone can just kill Tui and La, even a firebender like Xiao who isn't even that impressive, should be an indication that even if there is a connection between them and moon, it should not be such that they scale to that tier themselves. Even if the site usually treats these kind of things (stabilization feats) as cause to scale characters to that tier, the show here is clearly not treating it that way.

The Spirits scale. Their physical forms don't because they're not truly the spirits themselves (though Aaang did absorb the actual spirit by absorbing the fish).

They came to the world, created the spirit oasis, chose the physical forms of fish, but they still maintain the entire balance of the world and have extraordinary levels of power to the point of boosting the avatar state and giving it the ability to draw people into the fog of lost souls.

 

[Ayewale]

Different spirits. As you mentioned, they don't even live in the spirit world for the most part, whereas that's not true for the moon and ocean spirits.

This is literally you flying in the face of what actually happens. There is no difference here; their existence is integral to the moon and ocean and is the cause of it, unlike those other spirits you're applying here. Your point that unrelated spirits not doing this is wrong when Tui and La literally do things like make the moon disappear create tidal activity for the entire planet. I don't see what discussion there is to be had.

You can't just dismiss the statement with 'different spirits', it's still a pretty clear demonstration of how spirits in ATLA work. No official distinction between the moon and ocean spirit exist to differentiate them from other spirits. And uh, they do live in the spirit world for the most part...in fact, they exist there almost exclusively. General Old Iron says as much: humans began to drive spirits away from the physical world more and more, causing them to leave. We also see in Korra that most spirits do, in fact, live in the Spirit World, but can travel to the human one. Them being able to travel to and fro the spirit world doesn't mean they don't live in the spirit world, where are you getting this from?

I was referring to the fact that they corrupt the world and define it during this time. Which is something that does happen.

Yeah, of course they aren't saying the entire world would be destroyed. But corrupting the entire planet is pretty[?]

So yeah, all it does is corruption, which is not AP, and it's not a feat. Why bring up Harmonic Convergence?

By this logic, they shouldn't even be Low 6-C because they don't vaporize mountains every second during fight scenes.

We also don't see Doomguy perform any low 1-C feats onscreen or Yhwach do anything that's 3-A. Pointless argument.

It's not just that the visuals don't match up with the power on-screen, it's that it is impossible to rationalize Vaatu being 5-C without assuming every frame he spends on screen is PIS. Asura's right that we don't see him destroying mountains--but he scales to the big robot from the next season, which has a feat that's actually consistent with the series and doesn't blatantly contradict everything that came before it. It also helps that Vaatu and Korra fought in an ocean and mountains were nowhere near them lol.

We do see Doomguy perform a 1-C feat, that is defeating Davoth, who is literally the entire structure of hell. Yhwach is stated multiple times in an unambiguous manner to be able to destroy multiple realms, which is good enough, but being stronger than Senna's explosion is a feat in of itself. These arguments are bad.
As a sidenote, using what the characters consistently do to say something is an outlier isn't a pointless argument. It's literally how outliers work.

The Spirits scale. Their physical forms don't.

They came to the world, created the spirit oasis, chose the physical forms of fish, but they still maintain the entire balance of the world and have extraordinary levels of power to the point of boosting the avatar state and giving it the ability to draw people into the fog of lost souls.

Your thread positions that the spirits are literally the moon: you're saying that the moon is their physical form ("They represent the moon and ocean...this is literal..."). Are you suggesting that the spirits created the moon and ocean? Or that they use their energy to maintain it's existence?

 

[ByAsura]

I'll respond later. I'm doing stuff.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Some supporting stuff:
Vaatu escapes the tree of time and his energy/aura covers the world and spirit world, which is a high 6-A feat.
Proof that it is his energy: After Korra opens the spirit portal, he glows inside the tree, gathering power. He later generates said energy while teleporting. In contrast, Korra did not when she did the same thing.
Possible counterargument: He couldn't generate that energy all by himself; that's just spiritual energy focusing on the tree of time.
He still uses the energy to escape from the tree, and given the fact that Raava said that Vaatu would cover the world in darkness during Wan's harmonic convergence and Vaatu wasn't in the tree of time during that period to have it focus on him, it stands to reason that he can naturally do so, given that we see him generating the same purple energy in his Unavaatu form.

The 5-C for the avatar state comes from the fact that Wan and Korra could still fight evenly with Vaatu even when he was near the height of his power and Raava was explicitly shown to be weakened beforehand.

 

[Ayewale]

...Because it's a stabilization feat, which makes Tui/the moon spirit qualify for the tier. And after Yue becomes/joins the moon spirit, she's treated like she is the literal moon.

From the wiki page on Stabilization Feats:

• ...Requirement 2:Prove that the stabilized structure is being directly sustained by the power of the character and not from the character's abilities, life force, existence, magical properties or any unknown connection that is independent of their statistics.
  
  ...Requirement 4: Prove that the power of the character's stabilization consistently scales to their regular statistics, similar to our standards for creation feats.
• Common Limitations:
  • The character's existence only sustains the structure.
  • The character's regular statistics aren't consistently portrayed at the level of what they sustain.
  • The character and the structure are linked by a magical or unknown component.

This is a very, very bad stabilization feat. Proving that it consistently scales to their regular statistics is blatantly impossible.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

You can't just dismiss the statement with 'different spirits', it's still a pretty clear demonstration of how spirits in ATLA work. No official distinction between the moon and ocean spirit exist to differentiate them from other spirits. And uh, they do live in the spirit world for the most part...in fact, they exist there almost exclusively. General Old Iron says as much: humans began to drive spirits away from the physical world more and more, causing them to leave. We also see in Korra that most spirits do, in fact, live in the Spirit World, but can travel to the human one. Them being able to travel to and fro the spirit world doesn't mean they don't live in the spirit world, where are you getting this from?

Because some spirits embody/control concepts and some don't? Like the Mother of Faces in "The Search" comic. By your logic, she would have the same amount of importance as that random faceless monkey spirit that's outside Koh's lair.

 

[Flashlight237]

I can understand the points made here. It's like saying Artemis is literally the moon for just representing the moon in Greek mythology. Unless there's some actual meat to representing so-and-so entity, there's gonna be some dissonance issues here.

 

[Ayewale]

Some supporting stuff...

This feat occurs during Harmonic Convergence, an event that stated to greatly increase spiritual energy and spread an aura around the earth. The '6-A feat' here isn't being caused by Vaatu at all: at best you could say that he's doing it while massively amped by Harmonic Convergence (but if you believe in that then it's honestly a big debunk to this thread if anything). And Harmonic Convergence is a cosmic event that has nothing to do with Vaatu. Harmonic Convergence isn't a feat. Stop bringing it up.

Because some spirits embody/control concepts and some don't? Like the Mother of Faces in "The Search" comic. By your logic, she would have the same amount of importance as that random faceless monkey spirit that's outside Koh's lair.

Who said anything about importance? All my logic does it show that the behavior that Asura assumes from the moon and ocean spirit is very inconsistent with what we actually see in the series. I also cannot stress enough that no official distinction between the moon and ocean spirit and other spirits exist apart from being stronger.

 

[ByAsura]

I have some time, actually. Though I'll get into harmonic convergence stuff later.

You can't just dismiss the statement with 'different spirits', it's still a pretty clear demonstration of how spirits in ATLA work. No official distinction between the moon and ocean spirit exist to differentiate them from other spirits. And uh, they do live in the spirit world for the most part...in fact, they exist there almost exclusively. General Old Iron says as much: humans began to drive spirits away from the physical world more and more, causing them to leave. We also see in Korra that most spirits do, in fact, live in the Spirit World, but can travel to the human one.

Again, I can dismiss the statements because you're bringing up how other Spirits don't affect what they represent, like the forest. That blatantly makes these different cases right off the bat.

Read the link I gave. Tui and La are blatantly different because they do live in the mortal world, permanently, and have also manifested there. Their fish forms are the physical embodiments of the spirits, but not actually the spirits themselves, who still do live entirely within the mortal world.

You yourself are literally providing me with ammunition to debunk you here.

Them being able to travel to and fro the spirit world doesn't mean they don't live in the spirit world, where are you getting this from?

The link I gave you twice already. Please read it.

Asura's right that we don't see him destroying mountains--but he scales to the big robot from the next season, which has a feat that's actually consistent with the series and doesn't blatantly contradict everything that came before it.

The robot is so far below their level that it doesn't matter. Korra protected herself from every single spirit vine in the robot (just one of which is responsible for that) and republic city's vines detonating simultaneously.

It also helps that Vaatu and Korra fought in an ocean and mountains were nowhere near them lol.

It doesn't because you're talking about Small Country level characters otherwise. They'd have shattered them from part-way across the planet, and yet their fights are hardly destructive at all.

Your thread positions that the spirits are literally the moon: you're saying that the moon is their physical form ("They represent the moon and ocean...this is literal..."). Are you suggesting that the spirits created the moon and ocean? Or that they use their energy to maintain it's existence?

Their physical forms are the fish, not the moon and the ocean.

Both. The Spirits (not the fish manifestations) themselves are the moon and oceans.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

"They aren't X-tier because they didn't nuke everything" isn't really a valid argument based on the distinction this site makes between Attack Potency and Destructive Capability.

"An alternative term for Destructive Capacity which has more direct meaning: The Destructive Capacity that an attack is equivalent to. A character with a certain degree of attack potency does not necessarily need to cause destructive feats on that level, but can cause damage to characters that can withstand such forces. As such it isn't proof of a low attack potency, if a character's attacks only cause a small amount of destruction."

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

It also helps that Vaatu and Korra fought in an ocean and mountains were nowhere near them lol.

Korra and Vaatu fought in the Spirit World and the South Pole. The dark spirit leviathan was the one she fought in the middle of the ocean.

 

[ByAsura]

I'll better explain why it's stabilization when I come back, btw.

 

[Ayewale]

I have some time, actually. Though I'll get into harmonic convergence stuff later.

Read the link I gave. Tui and La are blatantly different because they do live in the mortal world, permanently, and have also manifested there. Their fish forms are the physical embodiments of the spirits, but not actually the spirits themselves, who still do live entirely within the mortal world.

You yourself are literally providing me with ammunition to debunk you here.

The link I gave you twice already. Please read it.

• This is a legend, so it's not exactly set in stone. Keep in mind ATLA humans would have zero ways of remotely certifying that.
• How does that make them any different? Traveling for the human world and staying there is something we've seen multiple spirits do. There's nothing preventing any spirit from staying for prolonged amounts of time. They just...chose to do it because they're benevolent spirits?
• I have read it and am unconvinced. Explain your point.

The robot is so far below their level that it doesn't matter. Korra protected herself from every single spirit vine in the robot (just one of which is responsible for that) and republic city's vines detonating simultaneously.

It doesn't because you're talking about Small Country level characters otherwise. They'd have shattered them from part-way across the planet, and yet their fights are hardly destructive at all.

Their physical forms are the fish, not the moon and the ocean.

Both. The Spirits (not the fish manifestations) themselves are the moon and oceans.

I mean yeah, Vaatu's stronger than the robot. That doesn't dispute my point. I am much more willing to accept small country level Vaatu because we've actually seen a blatant and indisputable small country feat from the Avatar.

Also this just doesn't make much sense tbh. The physical manifestations of the spirits are the fish, but the spirits themselves are apparently the moon and ocean, which are physical. The spirits are the fishes, simple as.

"They aren't X-tier because they didn't nuke everything" isn't really a valid argument based on the distinction this site makes between Attack Potency and Destructive Capability.

"An alternative term for Destructive Capacity which has more direct meaning: The Destructive Capacity that an attack is equivalent to. A character with a certain degree of attack potency does not necessarily need to cause destructive feats on that level, but can cause damage to characters that can withstand such forces. As such it isn't proof of a low attack potency, if a character's attacks only cause a small amount of destruction."

But the argument isn't just "they aren't X-tier because they didn't nuke everything", it's "they aren't X-tier because it's a massive outlier".

Korra and Vaatu fought in the Spirit World and the South Pole. The dark spirit leviathan was the one she fought in the middle of the ocean.

Fair enough.

 

[ByAsura]

This is a legend, so it's not exactly set in stone. Keep in mind ATLA humans would have zero ways of remotely certifying that.

'Legend says' is just another way of saying it's true in this case. If they weren't there, the water benders would be powerless and there'd literally be no ocean and moon, or the balance that they're responsible for.

• AANG: Destroying the moon won't hurt just the Water Tribe. It will hurt everyone, including you. Without the moon, everything would fall out of balance. You have no idea what kind of chaos that would unleash on the world

So, no, they don't cross between the spirit and normal worlds, and it's explicitly stated that they've 'always' done the dance. There is no way that they haven't taken up a permanent residence.

They have no way of certifying that it was at the beginning of time, but it's repeatedly confirmed that they do stay and take up an actual physical residence.

How does that make them any different? Traveling for the human world and staying there is something we've seen multiple spirits do. There's nothing preventing any spirit from staying for prolonged amounts of time. They just...chose to do it because they're benevolent spirits?

For the last time, A) the Spirits have manifested in the physical embodiment of the fish, rather than shapeshifting into an animal. B) the moon does disappear when they die regardless of what you say above, which you are saying doesn't happen with most spirits. Your point is wrong regardless.

What do I need to address here? They are factually different from all the cases you've displayed.

Also this just doesn't make much sense tbh. The physical manifestations of the spirits are the fish, but the spirits themselves are apparently the moon and ocean, which are physical. The spirits are the fishes, simple as.

I literally just showed you that this is wrong.

The spirits are the moon and the ocean, and the fish are their embodiments. This is exactly why Yue becomes the moon spirit, not the fish (which she only healed), and repeatedly appears down from the moon.

What Aang did was merge with the Oasis that provided the the Spirits with the portal to cross-over. He absorbed both the Spirit and the fish.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Avatars causing a massive amount of destruction to the surrounding environment doesn't make sense anyway cause 1. It's the avatar's duty to protect the world, not cause damage to it and 2. A mastered avatar stays as little time in the state as possible and draws up as much power as is needed for the situation.

 

[Ayewale]

If they weren't there, the water benders would be powerless and there'd literally be no ocean and moon, or the balance that they're responsible for.

• AANG: Destroying the moon won't hurt just the Water Tribe. It will hurt everyone, including you. Without the moon, everything would fall out of balance. You have no idea what kind of chaos that would unleash on the world

So, no, they don't cross between the spirit and normal worlds, and it's explicitly stated that they've 'always' done the dance. There is no way that they haven't taken up a permanent residence.

They have no way of certifying that it was at the beginning of time, but it's repeatedly confirmed that they do stay and take up an actual physical residence.

I mean, they did cross from the spirit world to the mortal one. I never said that they're criss-crossing. What I did say is that the legend means they can't certify permanent residence at all, which you agree with, so I'm moving on.

For the last time...

Ngl you just skipped over what I said. I asked how travelling makes the spirits different and you responded with how the spirits manifests. Maybe you quoted the wrong thing?

I literally just showed you that this is wrong.

The spirits are the moon and the ocean, and the fish are their embodiments. This is exactly why Yue becomes the moon spirit, not the fish (which she only healed), and repeatedly appears down from the moon.

What Aang did was merge with the Oasis that provided the the Spirits with the portal to cross-over. He absorbed both the Spirit and the fish.

The scan doesn't say the spirits are the moon and the ocean though...?0 It says that the fish are the physical embodiments of the spirits. Idk how else to say it but your scan just says that the fish are embodiments of the moon and ocean spirit. I'm begging you to just quote the actual line of the scan instead of asserting something it doesn't say.

What I said: "The spirits are the fishes."
What the scan said: "The white koi with the black spot was Tui, the physical embodiment of the Moon Spirit. The black koi with the white spot was La, the physical embodiment of the Ocean Spirit."

If you argue 'just read the scan!!' I will ignore your points from hereon out.

 

[ByAsura]

Ok, so what you're actually asking is proof that the Ocean and the Moon Spirits are actually the ocean and the moon (I'm not trying to be snarky, genuine question)? If that's the case, I can (and will if you want it) provide shit tons of proof (even though I've already done that).

Yeah, that does inherently make them different from the ones that don't because those ones don't have a physical embodiment. Anyway, the fact that the moon disappears is more than enough proof to disprove your arguments in the OP they aren't somehow linked in a different way to the spirits that had no effect on what they embody. So I'm just going to move on here until I get something of worth.

No, what you said was "The physical manifestations of the spirits are the fish, but the spirits themselves are apparently the moon and ocean, which are physical. The spirits are the fishes, simple as." I proved to you that they blatantly weren't by showing that the fish were actually the embodiments of the spirits, rather than the spirits themselves. Thusly, your point in the OP is also moot.

One of the creators of Avatar likened spirits to "projections of pure energy that can shift into different states of matter". This is perfectly consistent with Hei Bai shapeshifting and Tui/La manifesting into fish. Being both spirits, the fish and the literal moon contradicts this (as well as everything else).

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, I wasn't sure about the Avatar always being 5-C in the avatar state. IIRC, most avatars are only empowered by a small portian of Raava's power due to having a mini version of her in them. So I don't think that being in the avatar state makes them fully scale. Also, Wan rescuing Vaatu from Raava is more so him causing a distraction. Much like what Vegeta did to Cell. But a fully mastered Avatar state from Korra who was empowered by a fully awakened Raava should easily be above the Ocean and Moon Spirits. Also, the Ocean Spirit still has their own High 6-A feats combined with being the Yin to Ocean Spirit's Yang.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Here's a scan that says that Tui was merely "gravely wounded" when Zhao attacked her. This is despite the fact that the fish's lifeless body was shown onscreen and Yue says "It's dead." This proves that Tui is more then just the fish, as some form of her still technically existed (probably the bit that was inside Yue). Interestingly, it also makes it sound like pulling people into the fog of lost souls is just a natural ability that La has, despite only doing it onscreen once as Koizilla. This implies that he can do it while in fish form. Aang getting sucked into the water when he's with La supports this. Their energy also nurtures the spirit oasis. So they aren't just ordinary fish.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Well, I wasn't sure about the Avatar always being 5-C in the avatar state. IIRC, most avatars are only empowered by a small portian of Raava's power due to having a mini version of her in them. So I don't think that being in the avatar state makes them fully scale. Also, Wan rescuing Vaatu from Raava is more so him causing a distraction. Much like what Vegeta did to Cell. But a fully mastered Avatar state from Korra who was empowered by a fully awakened Raava should easily be above the Ocean and Moon Spirits. Also, the Ocean Spirit still has their own High 6-A feats combined with being the Yin to Ocean Spirit's Yang.

I thought this too, but Asura made a good point that Vaatu should have trashed both Wan and Korra during their respective fights because he should have been much more powerful then they are. I do agree that avatars definitely aren't operating at 5-C for their fights generally.

 

[Ayewale]

Ok, so what you're actually asking is proof that the Ocean and the Moon Spirits are actually the ocean and the moon (I'm not trying to be snarky, genuine question)? If that's the case, I can (and will if you want it) provide shit tons of proof (even though I've already done that).

Yeah, that does inherently make them different from the ones that don't because those ones don't have a physical embodiment. Anyway, the fact that the moon disappears is more than enough proof to disprove your arguments in the OP they aren't somehow linked in a different way to the spirits that had no effect on what they embody. So I'm just going to move on here until I get something of worth.

Most spirits don't have a physical embodiment because they choose not to? Most of them aren't staying in the human world for long periods of time. We have seen that multiple spirits have the ability to shapeshift, though.

"Anyway, the fact that the moon disappears is more than enough proof to disprove your arguments in the OP they aren't somehow linked in a different way to the spirits that had no effect on what they embody. So I'm just going to move on here until I get something of worth." What arguments are you referring to exactly? 90% of the CRT is arguing that the feat is an outlier. My two arguments concerning how they're linked is that:

1. They are not the actual moon and ocean
2. Even if they were somehow, it doesn't meet good standards for stabilization feats.

You said you'd argue against the latter later and I'm waiting on the 'shitton of evidence' for the former.

No, what you said was "The physical manifestations of the spirits are the fish, but the spirits themselves are apparently the moon and ocean, which are physical. The spirits are the fishes, simple as." I proved to you that they blatantly weren't by showing that the fish were actually the embodiments of the spirits, rather than the spirits themselves. Thusly, your point in the OP is also moot.

Yeah, I said the spirits are the fishes. You didn't prove to me that the fish are embodiment of the spirits, I...already agreed? In my OP I said they manifest as fish. Even in the point you responded to, I agree with the notion that the physical embodiment of the spirits are fish. You keep saying that the spirits are actually the moon and ocean, that's what I disagree with and I've made that clear.

Being both spirits, the fish and the moon hasn't been disproven. You keep pointing to the scan to disprove it but I frankly see nothing in the scan that does such. I asked you to point to the specific line saying this and you didn't, You allude to a shitton of evidence that I've been asking for and haven't gotten. It's not a moot point, you have to actually argue in favor of it.

 

[Ayewale]

Here's a scan that says that Tui was merely "gravely wounded" when Zhao attacked her. This is despite the fact that the fish's lifeless body was shown onscreen and Yue says "It's dead." This proves that Tui is more then just the fish, as some form of her still technically existed (probably the bit that was inside Yue). Interestingly, it also makes it sound like pulling people into the fog of lost souls is just a natural ability that La has, despite only doing it onscreen once as Koizilla. This implies that he can do it while in fish form. Aang getting sucked into the water when he's with La supports this. Their energy also nurtures the spirit oasis. So they aren't just ordinary fish.

What does "they aren't just ordinary fish" even mean? When did I argue the opposite?

Okay, a part of Tui was inside Yue. And the fish could potentially suck in Aang. And? This disproves nothing I've said. I could argue that the scan meant that the fish simply didn't die instantly and just died by the time Yue picked it up (which is what gravely wounded means--delivering life-threaning injuries that are likely to kill you soon). But I'm not sure it matters either way.

 

[ByAsura]

Most spirits don't have a physical embodiment because they choose not to? Most of them aren't staying in the human world for long periods of time. We have seen that multiple spirits have the ability to shapeshift, though.

The fact that those spirits choose not to doesn't mean that they aren't different. It just means they have the same potential.

This is like saying we're both amputees because we could both remove our arms, but I'm the only one who actually did.

What arguments are you referring to exactly? 90% of the CRT is arguing that the feat is an outlier. My two arguments concerning how they're linked is that:

1. They are not the actual moon and ocean

Ok, so this complete crock of bullshit is your argument? Ok, then I'll address it soon in a separate post.

1. Even if they were somehow, it doesn't meet good standards for stabilization feats.

I'll also debunk this later.

Yeah, I said the spirits are the fishes.

Which isn't true.

You didn't prove to me that the fish are embodiment of the spirits, I...already agreed? In my OP I said they manifest as fish. Even in the point you responded to, I agree with the notion that the physical embodiment of the spirits are fish. You keep saying that the spirits are actually the moon and ocean, that's what I disagree with and I've made that clear.

That's the exact problem; they don't manifest as fish. The fish aren't the spirits at all, they're just linked to them.

You seem to be getting confused with the terms 'embodiment' and 'personification.'

You claimed it was somehow contradictory towards the point, and that they can't do both at once. I showed you that they're not doing both at once.

You keep pointing to the scan to disprove it but I frankly see nothing in the scan that does such.

My guy, if you're the embodiment or something, you cannot be that thing by definition. Zhao even explicitly refers to the fish as the mortal form.

• As I was saying, years ago I stumble upon a great and powerful secret: the identity of the Moon Spirit's mortal form.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Well, I don't think the fish qualify for scaling via stabilization, as it's more of an issue of their nature than their power or anything.
And the whole "moon is first water bender"... well, it's the moon. If we assume the moon of the verse is the same giant rock as in real life then this "bending" is gravity and not the chi based stuff benders use. I.e. no UES for that and hence no scaling.

Since it's additionally an outlier from other feats, it really should have a way more solid reasoning anyway. Being massively above everything else and vague is just a bad look.

So in total, I agree with OP.

 

[ByAsura]

The moon is the first water bender had nothing to do with it. It's just an aspect of the spirits who are the moon and the ocean (as I'll show later) that gives the entire world balance.

 

[DontTalkDT]

The moon is the first water bender had nothing to do with it. It's just an aspect of the spirits who are the moon and the ocean (as I'll show later) that gives the entire world balance.

Mostly brought it up because it's the closests to an actual AP feat I can think of.

Anyway, just for reference of where my standards are in this, I know characters who are incantations of the concepts/laws of entire universes or even the multiverse and, if they are erased or removed, the uni-/multiverses are cease to exist. And yet they still are not close to 3-A (or higher) because just being something and being necessary for it to exist doesn't imply being comparable to it in AP.
Heck, you could be a sentient planet and, if you have not shown KE feats by moving yourself or something, I would still consider you featless. Good example of recent time, Fushi literally was an entire city, but is far from 7-B.

My point is: Showing the spirits are the moon and the ocean (in any sense of that), that destroying them would erase those and that they give the world balance... would still not give them that tier in my book.

 

[ByAsura]

it's not just that, they can also recreate it. but I'll get to that.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Moon being recreated after it was destroyed by the Moon Spirit's death when Yuei transferred her soul into it was the Moon Spirit's true AP feat.

 

[DontTalkDT]

it's not just that, they can also recreate it. but I'll get to that.

...and that would actually still not suffice in my book, because the same goes for Noah and the multiverse.

I mean, you could say they have "5-C Moon Creation Powers" if you wish, but that should in no way be scaled. Not even to themselves. There isn't the UES for that.

 

[ByAsura]

That seems like an immensely different case, like concept bullshit that doesn't apply here in any capacity.