Avatar Discussion Thread

[BrackishBrineBroth]

I think AE works, the immortality of both comes from the concept of light/good and darkness/evil, the previous text you sent and everything about rebirth is about that.

Cool. I'll propose that later. But wouldn't this mean that Korra (temporarily) destroying Vaatu with spiritbending count as concept alteration, then?

The flavor text of the ttrpg says that spiritbending changes the target's internal state, pushing them towards either balance or imbalance. Korra pushed Vaatu towards balance, which destroyed him. Similarly, either of the spirits can destroy the other for 10,000 years, which would also count as alteration, since they're making their opposing force vastly weaker.

 

[Lynieryz]

Cool. I'll propose that later. But wouldn't this mean that Korra (temporarily) destroying Vaatu with spiritbending count as concept alteration, then?

The flavor text of the ttrpg says that spiritbending changes the target's internal state, pushing them towards either balance or imbalance. Korra pushed Vaatu towards balance, which destroyed him. Similarly, either of the spirits can destroy the other for 10,000 years, which would also count as alteration, since they're making their opposing force vastly weaker.

I don't know, for this to happen Korra would have to destroy/alter the concept of evil and not Vaatu itself, if what she affected was the concept on which Vaatu is dependent then that would be conceptual manipulation.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Darn. Was hoping that her being able to fatally injure an AE type 2 being would give her concept manip by default.

 

[Lynieryz]

Darn. Was hoping that her being able to fatally injure an AE type 2 being would give her concept manip by default.

No, only if it was type 1.

Type 2: Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Korra would have to destroy/alter the concept of evil and not Vaatu itself, if what she affected was the concept on which Vaatu is dependent then that would be conceptual manipulation.

Ironically, Jinora did the opposite of this; gathering up all of the remaining light that existed and using it to resuscitate Raava. Though she doesn't have a profile on here.

Apologies if you're getting tired of this discussion.

 

[Lynieryz]

Ironically, Jinora did the opposite of this; gathering up all of the remaining light that existed and using it to resuscitate Raava. Though she doesn't have a profile on here.

Apologies if you're getting tired of this discussion.

This Jinora thing could be conceptual manipulation but it's still a bit doubtful whether what she gathered was literally all the goodness in the world but it's very likely that it was since it accelerated Raava's rebirth and Raava's rebirth is dependent on the concept of Good/Light so maybe a "possibly" would work.

And I'm not tired, it's been a fun discussion for me.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Upon further inspection, the spirit lights didn't leave the Earth during the book 2 finale, only the purple energy did.

Combined with Unalaq's claim proving true when the spirits move into the sky after the Southern portal is opened, this seems to confirm that the purple energy=Vaatu's influence; spirit lights=Raava's influence. More proof of this is when Unavaatu beams himself up into the portal's energy, he leaves a purple shockwave behind. Reminder that both of theme created the portals and scale to the energy that comes from them.

And in the season 2 artbook, when Korra is zooming through the atmosphere, the creators straight-up call the lights the aurora. They seem to behave just like rl auroras do, despite them also being spirits. Kind of like how the ocean and moon spirits are the literal ocean and moon but are also supernatural entities. Therefore, full-power Raava's passive influence/attacks should scale to the speed of the spirit lights, and since they're literal light that emit photons... Or would there have to be quantifiable proof that they move as fast as the rl auroras?

Still want feedback on this.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

ByAsura or Propellus, what do you think? Or any mod who browses this thread, really.

 

[ByAsura]

idk, my guy.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

I never got far into Avatar generations, and the game is being shut down today, but apparently this is an item in it:

If only this could be accepted as optional equipment. Then the characters could have a defense against time manipulation.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

I never got far into Avatar generations, and the game is being shut down today, but apparently this is an item in it:

If only this could be accepted as optional equipment. Then the characters could have a defense against time manipulation.

Adding onto this, I've been putting off using this guy's words as gospel, but I completely forgot that he had reached enlightenment under the tree, with one of the writers confirming that he did in fact, reach enlightenment. The dude says that time is an illusion. Combined with Iroh's words about time not meaning much in the spirit world, and all of the video game lore crumbs about time being subjective/nonexistent to spirits; I wonder if this would be enough to give the spirit characters resistance to time manipulation. Maybe a "possibly".

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

I've put together a list of all the ability additions and upgrades I've mentioned so far for a potential crt. Mod feedback would be appreciated.

• Forcefields for Zuko, Aang, Katara, and Korra.
• Limited Sound Manipulation for airbenders
• Durability negation for airbenders via asphyxiation
• Light manipulation for the avatars
• Bloodbending (aka Body Puppetry, Blood Manipulation, and Durability Negation) gets three layers above baseline for Amon and one layer above for Katara. Speaking of which, Amon does not have body puppetry on his page while Katara does, for some reason, so that should be corrected.
• Kyoshi gets at least one layer of Soul Manipulation resistance and Madness Manipulation resistance via Yangchen's essence. Roku and Aang get at least two from Kyoshi. Korra gets at least three because of Aang. Post-season 2 Korra loses her layers because of the loss of her past lives. There may be some disagreements that this is just a resistance to madness manipulation, but the fog does effect everyone on the level of the soul. Tenzin arguably still saw a vision of Aang that the fog gave him, despite him resisting the madness aspect of the fog, so it may have still affected his soul. Though the show makes it ambiguous whether this was Aang's spirit showing up, or if it was the fog doing it.
• This means that spiritbending should get four layers of Soul Manipulation, as it was going to destroy season 2 Korra before outside interference saved her.
• Speaking of which, Korra in her Cosmic key should be Immune to Soul Manipulation. She is a visual representation of her essence formed from energybending and made of cosmic energy. It's important to note that spirits in Avatar are projections of pure energy that can shift into different forms of matter and originate/have a strong connection to the cosmos. As for human souls, the series tends to flip back and forth between calling them spirits and souls. Certain humans can become spirits after they die. The characters later comment that what Korra became was the series' standard cosmic spirit and not Korra's actual soul. Her soul was still in her body/metaphysical realm where she connected to her cosmic self. The reason spiritbending was going to be effective on Korra is because her internal state was going to be turned imbalanced, which would have likely had an effect on her essence. (The creators also state that the fight was operating more on dream logic, and is supposed to be more symbolic and emotional rather than anything that makes logical sense.)
• Vaatu should get Chaos manipulation. Like what, why does he not already have this.
• The god-tiers (Raava and Vaatu at full power, Unavaatu, and Cosmic Korra) should all be “at least Sub-Relativistic” in speed. This comes from the lights of Harmonic Convergence leaving the Earth at that speed. The reason the god-tiers scale to it is because the spirit lights are spirits themselves, under the domain of Raava. It has already been agreed that Raava and Vaatu scale to the power of Harmonic Convergence. And in the season finale, Cosmic Korra rode through the spirit lights. This would count for travel speed as well as reaction speed, as Korra spotted Republic City when she passed over it and slammed into Vaatu. The “at least”part comes from coughcough this unsuccessful thread which at least established that Korra is moving faster than her smaller friends.
• Unavaatu should get Universal range via his influence during Harmonic convergence. The energy of HC washed over not just Earth, but the spirit world as well. The spirit world corresponds and overlaps with places in the physical world. Considering that celestial objects like moons and stars are also associated with/are spirits, the world also overlaps with space as well (which makes sense, considering Harmonic Convergence is a thing). Combined with the fact that distance in the world is ever malleable, this means that the HC energy covered an infinite-sized space.
• Both Raava and Vaatu should have Abstract Existence Type 2. Lynieryz and I talked about why they should have it here. We also talked about how, if Jinora has a profile, she could possibly have conceptual manipulation during Harmonic Convergence via resuscitating Raava with the remaining light energy (there was some initial disagreement there between the co-creators over what exactly she was doing, but Bryan states that it was “all of the light energy”, to which Mike agreed with him). More importantly, the wording in their conversation suggests that light energy falls under spiritual energy. This is important because near the end of the series, Raava tells Korra that she can control all of the spiritual energy in the spirit world. This is also proven true later when she bends the beam from Kuvira’s cannon. Thus, she should theoretically be able to do what Jinora did during the season 2 finale. Since Korra bends spirit energy with energybending, it would be Concept Manipulation with energybending. Aang would technically have this as well, but Raava never told him about it of course.

 

[Lynieryz]

I agree with everything except the layers of soul/madness hax, for the layers to be measured in numbers of people affected the verse has to explicitly say/demonstrate that more people = more resistance and with what was presented, the most I can see is two layers, following the logic that the resistance that comes from being an avatar is greater than that of ordinary people who can resist the effect of the fog.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

I agree with everything except the layers of soul/madness hax, for the layers to be measured in numbers of people affected the verse has to explicitly say/demonstrate that more people = more resistance and with what was presented, the most I can see is two layers, following the logic that the resistance that comes from being an avatar is greater than that of ordinary people who can resist the effect of the fog.

I was going off of the fact that we see multiple people enter the fog simultaneously (Tenzin's group) and the fog had no trouble affecting them. Whereas the avatar is like a stack of personalities/essences in one soul.

 

[Lynieryz]

I was going off of the fact that we see multiple people enter the fog simultaneously (Tenzin's group) and the fog had no trouble affecting them. Whereas the avatar is like a stack of personalities/essences in one soul.

The problem is what I already said, the wiki is rigid with the idea that the number of people affected is = Layers and only accepts it if it is explicitly demonstrated/said.[Example: mind control; It has to be said that affecting more than one person is more difficult or the same thing but instead of being said it is visually demonstrated. If it is not said/demonstrated it will just be treated as the hax range]

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

The problem is what I already said, the wiki is rigid with the idea that the number of people affected is = Layers and only accepts it if it is explicitly demonstrated/said.[Example: mind control; It has to be said that affecting more than one person is more difficult or the same thing but instead of being said it is visually demonstrated. If it is not said/demonstrated it will just be treated as the hax range]

Affecting more then one person is just range, though? Layers should be overcoming a person's resistance.

 

[Lynieryz]

Affecting more then one person is just range, though? Layers should be overcoming a person's resistance.

It is naturally assumed to be range if the work demonstrates that the number of people affected influences the potency of the hax then it will be layers.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

I agree with everything except the layers of soul/madness hax, for the layers to be measured in numbers of people affected the verse has to explicitly say/demonstrate that more people = more resistance and with what was presented, the most I can see is two layers, following the logic that the resistance that comes from being an avatar is greater than that of ordinary people who can resist the effect of the fog.

It may get up to three layers by Aang's time anyway because of the lion turtle's statement to Aang; that his own internal energy must be unbendable or he'll be destroyed. When the energybending happens, both Aang and Ozai's souls are flipped inside out, according to both the commentary and the artbook. Which means Aang's soul was unbendable.

 

[Lynieryz]

It may get up to three layers by Aang's time anyway because of the lion turtle's statement to Aang; that his own internal energy must be unbendable or he'll be destroyed. When the energybending happens, both Aang and Ozai's souls are flipped inside out, according to both the commentary and the artbook. Which means Aang's soul was unbendable.

Something like:

ordinary person's resistance < avatar's resistance < Aang's resistance;

But what makes this an additional resistance instead of the Turtle already knowing about an avatar's resistance?

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

From a chronological standpoint you're right; it's hard to prove that it wasn't the avatars helping him out. But when the episode was created (well before the fog of lost souls was envisioned) it was clearly intended to just be Aang's soul. Plus I feel like the turtle wouldn't have brought it up if that was the case.

 

[Lynieryz]

From a chronological standpoint you're right; it's hard to prove that it wasn't the avatars helping him out. But when the episode was created (well before the fog of lost souls was envisioned) it was clearly intended to just be Aang's soul. Plus I feel like the turtle wouldn't have brought it up if that was the case.

Well it's very difficult to define the most correct one, if the wiki "possibly" applies to layers it would be the most correct thing but I don't know if that's a thing with the wiki.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

I found an interesting piece of lore in the Republic City ttrpg. Mecha suits that are made out of iron and steel instead of platinum are starting to be mass produced, and these can be affected by metalbenders. Indicating that iron and steel aren't "purified" enough for them to be immune to metalbending.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

I want people's opinion on this. This passage happens in the latest Yangchen novel, when Yangchen moves a building while in the avatar state:

"The hall was an architect's model. On an earthen plate, it could be swiveled to the side. The centerpiece of Taku (which is a city) shifted in accordance with Yangchen's will, following her body's command. A tectonic drift, localized to a single block."

The part about the tectonic drift; would that be literal, as in she's doing it with enough power to shift a tectonic plate, or is that just fancy wording? Given the fact that she could apparently feel the whole plate, I'm inclined to believe the former.

 

[Lynieryz]

What I understood is that she moved an architect's building located in the center of a city. So, even if it was through the movement of a tectonic plate, it doesn't matter much, as it is suggested that the tectonic plate is the size of the building.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

It's hard to say, because tectonic plates irl are not nearly that small.

 

[Lynieryz]

It's hard to say, because tectonic plates irl are not nearly that small.

We are talking about fiction following the laws of reality is not exactly a priority.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

True, but at the same time we apply real world speed calcs and explosive yields to get tier ratings.

 

[Lynieryz]

Yes, but it is only calculated what is possible to be calculated. Many things that do not follow the laws of reality are capable of being calculated because theoretically it is not so far from reality.

A tectonic drift, localized to a single block.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Bringing up the Yangchen novel again, there's a feat where she causes a vacuum inside the ocean that fully exposes the sea floor, and then uses waterbending to keep the waves parted, Moses-style. The narration says she is holding back "the entire ocean". What tier would this probably be?

 

[Lynieryz]

Bringing up the Yangchen novel again, there's a feat where she causes a vacuum inside the ocean that fully exposes the sea floor, and then uses waterbending to keep the waves parted, Moses-style. The narration says she is holding back "the entire ocean". What tier would this probably be?

I have no idea, I'm horrible with math, but there's this street fighter calculation about parting the sea that led to island level.

Street Fighter - Assorted Feats

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Good find. Also, she did that feat out of the avatar state, which would be the most impressive non-AS display of bending in the franchise if it did get island-level.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Should I even bother sending it to the calc requests thread, since it's just text?

 

[Propellus]

It shouldn't hurt to try

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

I have done so. I was also incorrect about her not entering the avatar state; that flash of light that the text mentions was likely her briefly entering the state to draw from its power.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

God, the wait between content is torturous. The Roku novel doesn't come until August. The Aang movie has become undated, which isn't a good sign, especially with the behind-the-scenes studio bullshit happening at Paramount. And there isn't any news yet about the Spirit World supplement for the ttrpg, which will probably give some great lore.

 

[Propellus]

God, the wait between content is torturous. The Roku novel doesn't come until August. The Aang movie has become undated, which isn't a good sign, especially with the behind-the-scenes studio bullshit happening at Paramount. And there isn't any news yet about the Spirit World supplement for the ttrpg, which will probably give some great lore.

I heard things aren't going good with Paramount out there

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

I heard things aren't going good with Paramount out there

And the reason the comic releases have slowed is because of the Avatar studios stuff. Would be infuriating if the movies were cancelled and everything was delayed for no reason.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Do we need to create a crt if we want to create a new profile? I think that Wan, Yangchen, and Jinora should have profiles. Wan because he's the first Avatar, Yangchen because she's a notable avatar and she's had two books about her, and Jinora because she's one of the few airbenders and she has a couple of abilities that no other character has.

Speaking of which, would it be a dumb idea to create a key for Celestial Aang and Korra? Celestial Aang did move on its own at one point, and I feel like we have profiles for characters on this site that have even fewer screentime/are more vague, especially among the highest tiers. Plus this could be a good way to bump up Avatar's tier.

 

[Lynieryz]

Do we need to create a crt if we want to create a new profile?

No, only tier 1 profiles or above require a CRT to be created.

Speaking of which, would it be a dumb idea to create a key for Celestial Aang and Korra? Celestial Aang did move on its own at one point, and I feel like we have profiles for characters on this site that have even fewer screentime/are more vague, especially among the highest tiers. Plus this could be a good way to bump up Avatar's tier.

Is there any explanation in the work about what this form is?

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Is there any explanation in the work about what this form is?

No in-depth stuff. Just a statement that everything in the verse comes from energy and some beings return to the cosmos when they die, rather then be resurrected.

No, only tier 1 profiles or above require a CRT to be created.

Wouldn't the abilities on the newly-created profile have to get approval, though?