DaMonkeMan
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ATLA - 5-C Avatar is Dumb
- Thread starter Ayewale
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Their demise would mark the disappearance of the moon. That's like... a blatant case of stabilization. So why wouldn't it scale to the moon's GBE
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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DontTalkDT is a bureaucrat.
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That's true, yeah, but it's still one word versus... many
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There's no proof they can attack with power of that level
Yall seem to forget that all because it's the moon, doesn't mean it hits with moon level energy.
The average weenie jumping 2 feet off the ground has street level energy. I'm not gonna say you can punch me with street level energy.
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Yeah. I honestly thought this would be more controversial than it is; nice to have 7 mods agree with it.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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How does that have any bearing to this thread at all?
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That ain't the average
Anyways, I'm fine with Raava and Vaatu scaling due being all powerful and scaling above their energy used to stabilize the moon.
I'm not fine with the fish scaling to their GBE because "why not"
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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I was citing that you could punch me at Street level.
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If only there was sufficient evidence that Yue moves herself instead of gravity doing it. There's some of her doing so in the spirit world, but that doesn't really correspond to the physical world.
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Also
You forgot Zhao one shot em?
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As I mentioned previously, the fish aren't the Moon and Ocean Spirits.
The Moon and Ocean Spirits are the moon and ocean, while the fish are merely their physical embodiments. However, they're linked in such a way where killing the Tui (the moon spirit's fish) will destroy the moon.
The Moon and Ocean Spirits are the moon and ocean, while the fish are merely their physical embodiments. However, they're linked in such a way where killing the Tui (the moon spirit's fish) will destroy the moon.
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That's so whack
So they're linked to the spirits with the feats that embody physical things, with fodder durability but fuego AP
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not fuego. agua.
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It helps that they were well-hidden from outsiders and the only information about their physical selves was in a hidden library guarded by a giant owl.
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It's kind of like Dorian Gray's painting in reverse. The fishes are the mortal form (which is something Zhao literally states), while the immortal spirit is the moon.
They don't exactly explain it, but Tui healed Yue as a baby. This left life energy in Yue, which she used to heal Tui and restore the moon. So, this implies that the fish are directly connected to the spirits' life energy.
They don't exactly explain it, but Tui healed Yue as a baby. This left life energy in Yue, which she used to heal Tui and restore the moon. So, this implies that the fish are directly connected to the spirits' life energy.
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Just going to point out that the above calc is wrong for reasons I should not have to explain. The average joe can punch within the 40-100 J range.
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Also, Yue's father claimed that he received a vision when Yue was born that she would become the moon spirit.
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Here's a summary of the arguments.
- Most of the people who've commented since you left disagree with the Spirit embodiment stuff.
- The Moon and Ocean Spirits are the Moon and the Ocean to the point where they have several statements calling them such.
- The feat was rejected for stabilisation (beyond a limited capacity, anyway), but it was accepted for High 6-A since they're responsible for the eternal dance and can control tidal forces, both in an unnatural manner. This also extends to Aang absorbing the Ocean Spirit.
- So far, practically none of the staff agree with your outlier argument even if they don't have other feats on that level.
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Didn't we upgrade 60 J being the baseline requirement for 10-B with 106 for 10-A?
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DaMonkeMan
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ERM... MOD ABUTHE!1!1 
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Yeah, but the original Huey calc was in the Street level range.
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I've decided to take a look through this thread and offer my evaluation on behalf of someone else. From what I've read, there are a few things here I'd like to address.
In regards to whether the Moon and Ocean spirits are the actual moon and ocean, I'm uncertain. Almost every statement quoted regarding taking this literally has been shaky in some form - for example:
However, I acknowledge that this is (going by what others have pointed out) a cohesive enough plot point in the series that I don't particularly doubt there is a very specific, unquestionably literal statement somewhere for this. I'd just like for such a statement to be produced.
In regards to whether the Moon Spirit being the moon would scale them to its GBE, I'm actually not certain how we would treat this. It is fair to look at this and simply say "the moon is the moon" and be done with it, but it's also fair to acknowledge that simply possessing a form with a certain level of inherent GBE, or otherwise a form with things like strong gravitational pull, does not necessarily mean this energy can be exerted in the form of attack potency. It's worth looking into similar threads for other verses to create a precedent for how situations like this should be treated.
In regards to whether this is an outlier, there's definitely much more room for discussion on this point than what's been given. I've already mentioned above how the High 6-A feat referenced before isn't substantiated enough by what's been provided, and even if it was, there's a large gap between what can be considered High 6-A and what can be considered 5-C; 5-C's can have upwards of thousands of times greater AP than High 6-A's, so even if the prior feat was substantiated, this would still be questionable. Furthermore, as CloverDragon03 mentions, ATLA was previously only considered Low 6-B. Scaling up the AP of characters so drastically (by upwards of tens of thousands of times) due to a single, unclear feat at a higher level (with reference to a stabilisation feat at that, of which we often caution specifically because they can produce inflated statistics with little correlation to the actual potential of the characters), is very contentious and needs to be addressed in greater depth than it has been.
There have been some issues with the arguments presented by the OP in this regard, particularly around the confusions regarding attack potency and destructive capacity; the fact that these characters aren't, say, blowing up mountains with every punch doesn't debunk anything about the feats they are scaled to, and we wouldn't treat any other verses by this standard. Regardless of whether anyone thinks the site should have that standard, the fact is that it doesn't. I furthermore don't think this is inherently an outlier if prior feats the verse has been scaled to clearly do not reflect the full capabilities of the characters - things like casual feats are generally best used as a "good rating until shown otherwise" matter, and given that I do not know the details of the prior feats the verse was scaled to, I can't thoroughly comment on this one way or the other.
I believe there is room for sincere and respectful discussion here, and I also believe that we'd be jumping the gun to shut the discussion off at this point. I'd also like to acknowledge in passing that many of the comments thus far have been rather disrespectful and inflammatory - these are needless, and get in the way of respectful and rational debate, so I ask that no further comments of this sort be made.
To my knowledge, no one has quoted or directly addressed this comment by DontTalkDT, which I find questionable. It's been taken for granted that the linked feat is High 6-A, but no one has thoroughly explained why, and looking at the footage itself would suggest nothing of the sort. The fact that the feat covers the full range of the planet is only a matter of range, not AP - it doesn't involve "destroying" the surface of the earth in a traditional sense, and nothing else about it seems to suggest HIgh 6-A level AP. ATLA is not a verse I'm well involved in, so it's possible there is missing context from this clip that I have not seen, but someone needs to elaborate on this.
In regards to whether the Moon and Ocean spirits are the actual moon and ocean, I'm uncertain. Almost every statement quoted regarding taking this literally has been shaky in some form - for example:
- Sokka is now dating the moon ...... Or something like that.
- SOKKA: Appa? But why would Princess Yue need him? She's the moon! She flies by herself!
However, I acknowledge that this is (going by what others have pointed out) a cohesive enough plot point in the series that I don't particularly doubt there is a very specific, unquestionably literal statement somewhere for this. I'd just like for such a statement to be produced.
In regards to whether the Moon Spirit being the moon would scale them to its GBE, I'm actually not certain how we would treat this. It is fair to look at this and simply say "the moon is the moon" and be done with it, but it's also fair to acknowledge that simply possessing a form with a certain level of inherent GBE, or otherwise a form with things like strong gravitational pull, does not necessarily mean this energy can be exerted in the form of attack potency. It's worth looking into similar threads for other verses to create a precedent for how situations like this should be treated.
In regards to whether this is an outlier, there's definitely much more room for discussion on this point than what's been given. I've already mentioned above how the High 6-A feat referenced before isn't substantiated enough by what's been provided, and even if it was, there's a large gap between what can be considered High 6-A and what can be considered 5-C; 5-C's can have upwards of thousands of times greater AP than High 6-A's, so even if the prior feat was substantiated, this would still be questionable. Furthermore, as CloverDragon03 mentions, ATLA was previously only considered Low 6-B. Scaling up the AP of characters so drastically (by upwards of tens of thousands of times) due to a single, unclear feat at a higher level (with reference to a stabilisation feat at that, of which we often caution specifically because they can produce inflated statistics with little correlation to the actual potential of the characters), is very contentious and needs to be addressed in greater depth than it has been.
There have been some issues with the arguments presented by the OP in this regard, particularly around the confusions regarding attack potency and destructive capacity; the fact that these characters aren't, say, blowing up mountains with every punch doesn't debunk anything about the feats they are scaled to, and we wouldn't treat any other verses by this standard. Regardless of whether anyone thinks the site should have that standard, the fact is that it doesn't. I furthermore don't think this is inherently an outlier if prior feats the verse has been scaled to clearly do not reflect the full capabilities of the characters - things like casual feats are generally best used as a "good rating until shown otherwise" matter, and given that I do not know the details of the prior feats the verse was scaled to, I can't thoroughly comment on this one way or the other.
I believe there is room for sincere and respectful discussion here, and I also believe that we'd be jumping the gun to shut the discussion off at this point. I'd also like to acknowledge in passing that many of the comments thus far have been rather disrespectful and inflammatory - these are needless, and get in the way of respectful and rational debate, so I ask that no further comments of this sort be made.
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We already did by showing that they can control the tidal forces, and that it doesn't matter if conventional bending is Chi-based.
What feat are you talking about?
Doesn't matter if what Sokka says and 'or something like that' is shaky. Koh (a perfectly valid source) confirms it regardless.
- KOH: Tui and La, your moon and ocean, have always circled each other in an eternal dance. They balance each other, push and pull, life and death, good and evil, yin and yang.
I genuinely don't see how the rest of the discussion has similar issues. Everything else is from guides, or people talking about certain things that were proven correct later (like Tui or La's death severely affecting the balance of the world).
Nobody is planning to.
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I also agree with the op if Raava and vatuu would scale above 5-C then Korra after losing raava would also scale to 5-C even more considering this Vatuu was amped by Raava being gonne. The worse part is that because of the base of Chi that means base korra has the same power has her spirit that fuels her chi meaning that everyone that fought her would be scaling to as powerful as Raava and above the moon spirit
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As for the moon, one of the writers of the series made this commentary during this scene. Yue sees everything that the moon "sees".
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When you do reply to the CRT can you update the OP too? since I don't even know what the proposal is since I get not liking 5-C ATLA/LoK but afaik it doesn't mention what tier you want the verse to be downgraded to also I didn't participate in this CRT but isn't there supposed to be a 48hrs grace period for CRTs now? (especially for popular verses and/or big upgrades), I do believe it went through a little to quickly after the last staff/mod gave approval plus they might've been some confusion about what is considered "grace period" such as when a CRT is posted Vs when the last mod/staff voted on it but that's a different subject.
For now I'm neutral on this CRT also please no-one reply to my comment since @Ayewale already has dozens of replies to go through
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No. Korra connected with cosmic energy. Even at her weakest, with a broken connection to the past Avatars and poison still in her blood stream, she could **** up Kuvira while briefly using it.
There's no scaling here.
Also, Korra would be Low 6-B anyway since that's how powerful the Avatar State was before the revision. So this logic makes no sense.
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lean with disagreeing with the OP, current tier should stay
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Could we maybe use "At least High 6-A, possibly 5-C" because we don't know exactly how they sustain the moon?
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Speaking of Cosmic Korra, I've finished a proposal to introduce a key for her and to smooth out Korra's other keys. Should I wait for this thread to be concluded before making that crt? It shouldn't affect any of the tiering.
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