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I have no problems with that either.I'm fine with the second option.
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I have no problems with that either.I'm fine with the second option.
Yeah she lost all previous avatarsisnt post season 2 korra weaker than before?
Is the avatar state confirmed to inherit the power of previous avatars, or just their knowledge?
Says energy, that sounds like power to me. Unless the “energy” of this statement is unrelated to the “spirit energy” of the fish spirits that people are scaling them to 5-C with.The Avatar State
Azula's ship High Temple (dream only) General Fong's fortress Northern Water Tribe (dream only) Southern Air Temple (dream only) Village resort Zuko's ship (dream only) "The Avatar State"avatar.fandom.com
The Avatar State is a defense mechanism, designed to empower you with the skills and knowledge of all the past Avatars. The glow is the combination of all your past lives, focusing their energy through your body. In the Avatar State, you are at your most powerful, but you are also at your most vulnerable. If you are killed in the Avatar State, the reincarnation cycle will be broken and the Avatar will cease to exist."
Roku says the knowledge and skills of all the previous avatars; power is never brought up.Is the avatar state confirmed to inherit the power of previous avatars, or just their knowledge?
He said that the knowledge and skills empower the current avatar so that alongside Korra lore means that the avatar state gets a boost from raava alongside a power boost from each past lifeRoku says the knowledge and skills of all the previous avatars; power is never brought up.
He said that the knowledge and skills empower the current avatar so that alongside Korra lore means that the avatar state gets a boost from raava alongside a power boost from each past life
Nice to see you too. What is supposed to be happening here?Hey KuiKui. Nice to see you back.
Op seems to have lost interest in the thread, so nothing really.Nice to see you too. What is supposed to be happening here?
Nice to see you too. What is supposed to be happening here?
Do you want me to tag some people for you?Op seems to have lost interest in the thread, so nothing really.
Well I’m not actually sure, I wanted to know where things stood with this revision and what was going through/not going through.Do you want me to tag some people for you?
No consensus, to the best of my knowledge.Well I’m not actually sure, I wanted to know where things stood with this revision and what was going through/not going through.
Because I have thoughts that kind of go both ways.
No consensus, to the best of my knowledge.
Well, I wasn't sure about the Avatar always being 5-C in the avatar state. IIRC, most avatars are only empowered by a small portian of Raava's power due to having a mini version of her in them. So I don't think that being in the avatar state makes them fully scale. Also, Wan rescuing Vaatu from Raava is more so him causing a distraction. Much like what Vegeta did to Cell. But a fully mastered Avatar state from Korra who was empowered by a fully awakened Raava should easily be above the Ocean and Moon Spirits. Also, the Ocean Spirit still has their own High 6-A feats combined with being the Yin to Ocean Spirit's Yang.
So, to summarize, every other Avatar will be downgraded back to Low 6-B while Korra and Unalaq become High 6-A, possibly 5-C?Okay, I see. I had seen talk of whether 5-C or High 6-A is more appropriate, but regardless of which rating is taken, I guess I’ll give my own consensus of what I agree and disagree with to get this going again.
Basically, I half disagree with the downgrade. I disagree with downgrading Tui/La from 5-C/High 6-A, and Raava / Vaatu as extension. @ByAsura, @BrackishBrineBroth and plethora of others gave good convincing arguments and evidence to support those ratings, some of which surprised me actually.
However, what I don’t agree with is scaling all Avatars, other than Korra & Unalaq, to Fully Powered Raava & Vaatu. This is where I think the scaling should be revised, but for different reasons than what the OP was arguing here.
The reasons are pretty much what @DarkDragonMedeus reiterated earlier in the thread
Before the upgrades actually happened in the first place, this was the initial idea I proposed when deciding to upscale Raava / Vaatu from Tui/La. Wan, Aang and every Avatar prior to Korra shouldn’t be scaling to the full extent of Raavas power since they never had a fully powered Raava inside them in the first place. Only a mini weakened version of her when Raava was depowered during Wans Harmonic Convergence. Korra is the only Avatar who has fused with Raava when she’s back at her full power. Same with Unalaq fusing with an even more amped Vaatu.
Now, I did read the initial upgrade thread and saw why all Avatars got the upgrade, because of things like Wan and Korra still being able to fight Vaatu with tiny Raava. The problem however, is that narratively speaking, this doesn’t really make any sense.
Firstly, Wan was getting overpowered quite easily by Vaatu when they were fighting. He had to fuse with Raava in order to even have a chance, and he didn’t really even cause Vaatu any significant harm or whatnot when fusing. Avatar State Wan had to seal Vaatu in the Tree of Time as a last resort option to stop him outside of an actual battle.
Secondly, the whole point behind Raava getting depowered in Wans era was because after Vaatu got freed, the balance between light & darkness (which, keeping in mind, Raava and Vaatu are the literal concepts / personifications of) got disrupted and made in Vaatus favor. Doing things like turning other spirits into Dark Spirits and what not made Vaatu and darkness stronger, which as a result, made Raava and light weaker. So weak that not only did Raava explicitly need Wans help to fight Vaatu, but by the time Wans Harmonic Convergence started, Raava was too weak to even move. Instead needing to be carried in Wans teapot.
Raava getting depowered to such a degree made Vaatu incredibly confident in winning this encounter quite handily. So even if we go with the idea of Wan fighting Vaatu to some comparable extent, there’s ample reason to argue Vaatu wasn’t fighting against him seriously.
The same thing would pretty much go for Korra.
The conclusion of making every avatar in the AS 5-C and not just post season 2 Korra was something I was iffy about as well. Like you pointed out, Raava's power should have been weak enough that Wan/season 2 Korra should have been one-shotted by Vaatu. However, I found some commentary by the series creators that states that Wan was changing and "evolving" every time that Raava passed through his body. And then there's what he says to Vaatu during their fight ("Haven't you heard? I'm not an ordinary human anymore). So while Raava had lost most of her strength, the argument could be made that most of her strength had passed on to Wan and prevented him from getting steamrolled by Vaatu (and it also tracks with how they got a huge boost in power when they permanently fused).Now, I did read the initial upgrade thread and saw why all Avatars got the upgrade, because of things like Wan and Korra still being able to fight Vaatu.
The problem however, is that narratively speaking, this doesn’t really make any sense.
I’m mostly certain the creators commentary just meant Wan was becoming stronger and more skilled at bending, since Raava passing through him allowed Wan to use the other elements like he was traveling the world to do.The conclusion of making every avatar in the AS 5-C and not just post season 2 Korra was something I was iffy about as well. Like you pointed out, Raava's power should have been weak enough that Wan/season 2 Korra should have been one-shotted by Vaatu. However, I found some commentary by the series creators that states that Wan was changing and "evolving" every time that Raava passed through his body.
Yes, but like I mentioned, the big problem is that during this said fight after all of that training, Vaatu overpowered Wan very easily. Base Wan was thrown and blasted around like a rag doll, and even after then getting Raava inhis body, Wan didn’t have much room to really match Vaatu blow for blow until permanently fusing with Raava and then sealing him away.And then there's what he says to Vaatu during their fight ("Haven't you heard? I'm not an ordinary human anymore).
Raava however had already started weakening once Wan mistakenly separated her from Vaatu. He then even noticed for himself that Vaatu was getting stronger while Raava was getting weakerSo while Raava had lost most of her strength, the argument could be made that most of her strength had passed on to Wan and prevented him from getting steamrolled by Vaatu (and it also tracks with how they got a huge boost in power when they permanently fused).
So, to summarize, every other Avatar will be downgraded back to Low 6-B while Korra and Unalaq become High 6-A, possibly 5-C?
I don't really mind one way or the other whether the avatars before Korra get downgraded to High 6-A. But I also want to share this interview where Mike and Bryan state that the avatar is the most powerful being in the verse. The way they phrase it shows that they're talking about the avatars in general, not just Korra, so all of them would be at or above the moon spirit's level.That’s one option we could do, yeah.
Eh. “The Avatar is the most skilled and powerful being and stuff” could always just refer to them being the most powerful of benders, or how since they have a resonance with Raava/Vaatu, the god tiers of the verse essentially, they’re the strongest in that way.I don't really mind one way or the other whether the avatars before Korra get downgraded to High 6-A. But I also want to share this interview where Mike and Bryan state that the avatar is the most powerful being in the verse. The way they phrase it shows that they're talking about the avatars in general, not just Korra, so all of them would be at or above the moon spirit's level.
I get where you're coming from, but I think that if they had meant that, they would have said "bender" and not "being".Eh. “The Avatar is the most skilled and powerful being and stuff” could always just refer to them being the most powerful of benders, or how since they have a resonance with Raava/Vaatu, the god tiers of the verse essentially, they’re the strongest in that way.
But not necessarily meaning they all would scale to Raavas full power.
Maybe, but for my other reasoning I still think this is still too vague to scale all of the Avatars to that extent.I get where you're coming from, but I think that if they had meant that, they would have said "bender" and not "being".
Go for itConsidering this thread and the original purpose of it has (kinda?) died out, should we make a new thread to discuss the newer, more recent, revision points?
Know this is a week late but okay, i'll make a new thread to discuss the newer revision topics I had suggested.Go for it