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I have no problems with that either.
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ATLA - 5-C Avatar is Dumb
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isnt post season 2 korra weaker than before?
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Yeah she lost all previous avatars
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Okay I'm not saying I agree with Moon level ATLA but no, Raava's size or not, post S2 Korra, the only Avatar she should be stronger than is Wan. She did the exact same thing as him (defeating Vaatu) with Raava starting the Avatar State, and it's stated consistently that the Avatar State compounds with the Avatars. Vaatu and Raava can't even die, they just get trapped within the other when defeated, as one can't exist without the other. The only think Korra can do that the rest can't is talk with Raava.
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The Avatar State
Azula's ship High Temple (dream only) General Fong's fortress Northern Water Tribe (dream only) Southern Air Temple (dream only) Village resort Zuko's ship (dream only) "The Avatar State"
avatar.fandom.com
The Avatar State is a defense mechanism, designed to empower you with the skills and knowledge of all the past Avatars. The glow is the combination of all your past lives, focusing their energy through your body. In the Avatar State, you are at your most powerful, but you are also at your most vulnerable. If you are killed in the Avatar State, the reincarnation cycle will be broken and the Avatar will cease to exist."
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Yeah, I saw that. I'm pretty sure that was soft-retconned in LoK, considering Wan had no past lives yet he still had the glow after he perma fused with Raava.
Also, the OP hasn't responded in a while.
Also, the OP hasn't responded in a while.
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IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Bump.
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Bump?
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From what I’ve gathered:
5-C is bogus since there’s no reasoning whatsoever that the Fish should be able to exert the exact GBE of the Moon, and at most the fish should scale, through energy/spirit stuff, to High 6-A.
The size of the Avatar planet might not even be comparable to our own, and on top of that the Moon might not even be structured in a similar universal way as our own moon, which makes it dubious if they should even scale to High 6-A either.
No one should be scaling to the theoretical super fish other than Vaatu, Raava and Korrazilla.
Post S2 Korra’s avatar state should be weaker since she lost all her past lives which made up the majority of her power, so she should not scale to her peak self despite being more connected to Raava.
5-C is bogus since there’s no reasoning whatsoever that the Fish should be able to exert the exact GBE of the Moon, and at most the fish should scale, through energy/spirit stuff, to High 6-A.
The size of the Avatar planet might not even be comparable to our own, and on top of that the Moon might not even be structured in a similar universal way as our own moon, which makes it dubious if they should even scale to High 6-A either.
No one should be scaling to the theoretical super fish other than Vaatu, Raava and Korrazilla.
Post S2 Korra’s avatar state should be weaker since she lost all her past lives which made up the majority of her power, so she should not scale to her peak self despite being more connected to Raava.
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Says energy, that sounds like power to me. Unless the “energy” of this statement is unrelated to the “spirit energy” of the fish spirits that people are scaling them to 5-C with.The Avatar State
Azula's ship High Temple (dream only) General Fong's fortress Northern Water Tribe (dream only) Southern Air Temple (dream only) Village resort Zuko's ship (dream only) "The Avatar State"
The Avatar State is a defense mechanism, designed to empower you with the skills and knowledge of all the past Avatars. The glow is the combination of all your past lives, focusing their energy through your body. In the Avatar State, you are at your most powerful, but you are also at your most vulnerable. If you are killed in the Avatar State, the reincarnation cycle will be broken and the Avatar will cease to exist."
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Roku says the knowledge and skills of all the previous avatars; power is never brought up.
Also, something I completely forgot about the moon spirit that grants more credibility to its 5-C rating is that after Yue sacrifices her life and plants her energy into the koi fish (which proceeds to swim around), the moon doesn't immediately pop back into existence. Yue's spirit appears from the pond first, says a final goodbye to Sokka, disappears, and then the moon reappears. If the moon was just tied to the spirit's life force, it should have appeared as soon as the fish revived or Yue assumed her new role.
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He said that the knowledge and skills empower the current avatar so that alongside Korra lore means that the avatar state gets a boost from raava alongside a power boost from each past life
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Haven’t been on the site in quite a while and heard about these upgrades, so came back to read through the thread, but just to comment on this first, this is wrong. The Avatar States power comes from Raava and Vaatu (for the Dark Avatar State) and Rokus explanation shouldn’t be taken entirely as literally.
Yes, the Avatar State does combine the knowledge, skills and strength of the Avatars past lives. But how Roku explained the Avatar State in TLA was made at the time where we had no explained origins of the Avatar or how it came to be, so at the time, the Past Avatars were depicted as the source of power for the Avatar when going AS.
However, Legend of Korra pretty explicitly shows otherwise from this when Raava and Vaatu are introduced into the lore. Whenever Wan and Raava combined their energies together before Harmonic Convergence, we saw Wans power be boosted significantly beyond his normal capabilities, demonstrating that his resonance with Raava is the source of power for what would come to be as the Avatar Spirit. After all, despite having become the very first Avatar of them all in the cycle, Wan still acquired the Avatar State and glow when permanently fusing with Raava. This also explains why Korra can still have the Avatar State after her connection to her past lives was severed, and how even Unalaq, the first and only Dark Avatar of his cycle, had a Dark Avatar State equivalent when fusing with Vaatu.
Getting strength and skill from Past Avatars is just a sub skill the Avatar Spirit grants the Avatar since it’s through fusing with Raava/Vaatu that allows an Avatar to reincarnate and have a connection to their previous Avatar incarnations. It’s an addition, but the core source of power for the Avatar in their Avatar State is being boosted by Raava and Vaatu.
Not to mention, it hardly makes sense to think combining past lives makes the Avatar any more stronger than what the AS already provides as a power boost. Raava is the source of power for ALL Avatars, they all draw on Raavas power in the AS. Aside from knowledge, skills and combat expedience, what would be getting combined? What would they be getting that makes them any more stronger than something Raava already provided in the Avatar State?
It’s not as if every Avatar incarnation stacks Raavas power on top of each other to then be > than the power of Raava.
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Hey KuiKui. Nice to see you back.
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Nice to see you too. What is supposed to be happening here?
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Op seems to have lost interest in the thread, so nothing really.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Do you want me to tag some people for you?
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Well I’m not actually sure, I wanted to know where things stood with this revision and what was going through/not going through.
Because I have thoughts that kind of go both ways.
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No consensus, to the best of my knowledge.
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Okay, I see. I had seen talk of whether 5-C or High 6-A is more appropriate, but regardless of which rating is taken, I guess I’ll give my own consensus of what I agree and disagree with to get this going again.
Basically, I half disagree with the downgrade. I disagree with downgrading Tui/La from 5-C/High 6-A, and Raava / Vaatu as extension. @ByAsura, @BrackishBrineBroth and plethora of others gave good convincing arguments and evidence to support those ratings, some of which surprised me actually.
However, what I don’t agree with is scaling all Avatars, other than Korra & Unalaq, to Fully Powered Raava & Vaatu. This is where I think the scaling should be revised, but for different reasons than what the OP was arguing here.
The reasons are pretty much what @DarkDragonMedeus reiterated earlier in the thread
Before the upgrades actually happened in the first place, this was the initial idea I proposed when deciding to upscale Raava / Vaatu from Tui/La. Wan, Aang and every Avatar prior to Korra shouldn’t be scaling to the full extent of Raavas power since they never had a fully powered Raava inside them in the first place. Only a mini weakened version of her when Raava was depowered during Wans Harmonic Convergence. Korra is the only Avatar who has fused with Raava when she’s back at her full power. Same with Unalaq fusing with an even more amped Vaatu.
Now, I did read the initial upgrade thread and saw why all Avatars got the upgrade, because of things like Wan and Korra still being able to fight Vaatu with tiny Raava. The problem however, is that narratively speaking, this doesn’t really make any sense.
Firstly, Wan was getting overpowered quite easily by Vaatu when they were fighting. He had to fuse with Raava in order to even have a chance, and he didn’t really even cause Vaatu any significant harm or whatnot when fusing. Avatar State Wan had to seal Vaatu in the Tree of Time as a last resort option to stop him outside of an actual battle.
Secondly, the whole point behind Raava getting depowered in Wans era was because after Vaatu got freed, the balance between light & darkness (which, keeping in mind, Raava and Vaatu are the literal concepts / personifications of) got disrupted and made in Vaatus favor. Doing things like turning other spirits into Dark Spirits and what not made Vaatu and darkness stronger, which as a result, made Raava and light weaker. So weak that not only did Raava explicitly need Wans help to fight Vaatu, but by the time Wans Harmonic Convergence started, Raava was too weak to even move. Instead needing to be carried in Wans teapot.
Raava getting depowered to such a degree made Vaatu incredibly confident in winning this encounter quite handily. So even if we go with the idea of Wan fighting Vaatu to some comparable extent, there’s ample reason to argue Vaatu wasn’t fighting against him seriously.
The same thing would pretty much go for Korra.
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IdiosyncraticLawyer
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So, to summarize, every other Avatar will be downgraded back to Low 6-B while Korra and Unalaq become High 6-A, possibly 5-C?
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The conclusion of making every avatar in the AS 5-C and not just post season 2 Korra was something I was iffy about as well. Like you pointed out, Raava's power should have been weak enough that Wan/season 2 Korra should have been one-shotted by Vaatu. However, I found some commentary by the series creators that states that Wan was changing and "evolving" every time that Raava passed through his body. And then there's what he says to Vaatu during their fight ("Haven't you heard? I'm not an ordinary human anymore). So while Raava had lost most of her strength, the argument could be made that most of her strength had passed on to Wan and prevented him from getting steamrolled by Vaatu (and it also tracks with how they got a huge boost in power when they permanently fused).
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I’m mostly certain the creators commentary just meant Wan was becoming stronger and more skilled at bending, since Raava passing through him allowed Wan to use the other elements like he was traveling the world to do.
Yes, but like I mentioned, the big problem is that during this said fight after all of that training, Vaatu overpowered Wan very easily. Base Wan was thrown and blasted around like a rag doll, and even after then getting Raava inhis body, Wan didn’t have much room to really match Vaatu blow for blow until permanently fusing with Raava and then sealing him away.
Plus, as I also mentioned, Vaatu also had no reason to fight Wan/tiny Raava with anything close to full power, since Raava getting depowered in the first place made Vaatu highly confident in winning that Harmonic Convergence.
Raava however had already started weakening once Wan mistakenly separated her from Vaatu. He then even noticed for himself that Vaatu was getting stronger while Raava was getting weaker
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That’s one option we could do, yeah.
Another option is that there may be something to make them High 6-A or close when using a weakened Raava.
I saw comments earlier in the thread about Harmonic Convergence not being able to be scaled to AP for being a cosmic event, but I disagree with this idea. In the Avatar verse, Harmonic Convergence is just the amplified spiritual energy of the conjoined spirit portals spreading across the planet when the planets align. Since this is done with energy, spiritual energy at that, there’s no reason why it can’t be scaled to another that would be using said energy. Raava / Vaatu don’t need to cause Harmonic Convergence to still scale.
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I don't really mind one way or the other whether the avatars before Korra get downgraded to High 6-A. But I also want to share this interview where Mike and Bryan state that the avatar is the most powerful being in the verse. The way they phrase it shows that they're talking about the avatars in general, not just Korra, so all of them would be at or above the moon spirit's level.
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Eh. “The Avatar is the most skilled and powerful being and stuff” could always just refer to them being the most powerful of benders, or how since they have a resonance with Raava/Vaatu, the god tiers of the verse essentially, they’re the strongest in that way.
But not necessarily meaning they all would scale to Raavas full power.
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I get where you're coming from, but I think that if they had meant that, they would have said "bender" and not "being".
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Maybe, but for my other reasoning I still think this is still too vague to scale all of the Avatars to that extent.
Plus as I said, narratively, we know tiny Raava is weaker than her full power, so it wouldn’t really make sense to still scale all Avatars to the full value a full powered Raava would have.
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Considering this thread and the original purpose of it has (kinda?) died out, should we make a new thread to discuss the newer, more recent, revision points?
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Go for it
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Know this is a week late but okay, i'll make a new thread to discuss the newer revision topics I had suggested.
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Just to give a heads up, I created the revision thread I spoke about.
Atp I guess this thread could be closed then?
Atp I guess this thread could be closed then?
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I'll close this then. If this needs to be reopened, just message me on my wall.
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