ATLA - 5-C Avatar is Dumb

[CloverDragon03]

Ayewale's argument is that the 5-C feat is an outlier, which I don't get

I mean, before this, the tier these characters were at was Low 6-B, which, when compared to the previous 8-A's and 7-C's... would still be an "outlier." So, just because it's higher, it's suddenly a problem? Seems super arbitrary, and I really don't get the logic behind this. And no, you don't need to be destroying moons with every attack, that's a classic case of AP =/= DC

Disagree with the OP

 

[ByAsura]

You keep saying that the spirits are actually the moon and ocean, that's what I disagree with and I've made that clear.

• The moon and oceans weren't there before Tui and La came into the world.
• Even putting Tui in a bag causes the moon to become red.
• Koh literally calls them 'your moon and ocean', not just the moon and ocean spirits.
  • KOH: Tui and La, your moon and ocean, have always circled each other in an eternal dance. They balance each other, push and pull, life and death, good and evil, yin and yang.
• When Tui dies, the moon disappears.
• When Yue uses whatever life the Moon Spirit instilled in her to heal the fish, the moon is back.
  • IROH: You have been touched by the Moon Spirit. Some of its life is in you.
• Yue is stated on multiple occasions to literally be the moon after becomingthe Moon Spirit.
  • Sokka is now dating the moon ...... Or something like that.
  • SOKKA: Appa‌? But why would Princess Yue need him‌? She's the moon! She flies by herself!

And I don't mean it metaphorically, or rhetorically, or poetically, or theoretically, or in any other fancy way. They're the oceans and moon straight up.

Claiming that they aren't is wilful ignorance at this point. I can understand if this still isn't enough for stabilisation, but they definitely are the Moon and Ocean.

 

[CloverDragon03]

And I don't mean it metaphorically, or rhetorically, or poetically, or theoretically, or in any other fancy way. They're the oceans and moon straight up.

Holy shit, Death is that you?

 

[ByAsura]

Anyway, this is getting a bit annoying.

They physically are the moon and oceans, and have statements about being the moon and oceans.

If this isn't a stabilization feat, then that's fine. I guess we can just make Tui and La profiles (with the caveat that 5-C is via specific stuff), and scale the others above High 6-A tidal forces, and Aang not feeling much more powerful after he absorbed the entire ocean.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Since it's additionally an outlier from other feats, it really should have a way more solid reasoning anyway. Being massively above everything else and vague is just a bad look.

Vaatu escapes the tree of time and his energy/aura covers the world and spirit world, which is a high 6-A feat.

 

[DontTalkDT]

That seems like an immensely different case, like concept bullshit that doesn't apply here in any capacity.

That it's concepts really doesn't make the difference. I mean, it's not like the moon is physically blown up or assembled here either. It's just erasure and creation from nothing.
The point is that there is no reason to assume the god is as powerful when concerned with anything that doesn't concern its metaphysical existence i.e. it's not its usual strength.

Ayewale's argument is that the 5-C feat is an outlier, which I don't get

I mean, before this, the tier these characters were at was Low 6-B, which, when compared to the previous 8-A's and 7-C's... would still be an "outlier." So, just because it's higher, it's suddenly a problem? Seems super arbitrary, and I really don't get the logic behind this. And no, you don't need to be destroying moons with every attack, that's a classic case of AP =/= DC

Got to consider that there is a difference between an outlier on a solid feat and an outlier on a non-solid feat, though. The stabilization page cautions against outliers for a reason. Many verses straight up consider stuff like this no AP issue.

and scale the others above High 6-A tidal forces, and Aang not feeling much more powerful after he absorbed the entire ocean.

Thing with the tidal forces is that they come from the moons gravity... which scales to nobody due to being a physical force, while benders use chi.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Some supporting stuff:
Vaatu escapes the tree of time and his energy/aura covers the world and spirit world, which is a high 6-A feat.

Why would that be a High 6-A feat? He isn't blowing up the entire surface.

 

[ByAsura]

Which doesn't really matter. It's stated that they define such concepts, and that they're all-powerful.

Also, Aang still absorbed the entirety of the ocean spirit, and therefore the whole ass ocean, and said 'I'm as powerful as ever'.

 

[ByAsura]

Also, the moon and the ocean's push and pull and rotation is considered their 'dance' around each other, and they do it eternally.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Got to consider that there is a difference between an outlier on a solid feat and an outlier on a non-solid feat, though. The stabilization page cautions against outliers for a reason. Many verses straight up consider stuff like this no AP issue.

This... does seem very solid to me, though

And the solidity of it was never the OP's argument to begin with, by his own admission. And to begin with, it wouldn't be an outlier if it's only scaling to the strongest characters in the verse, who already scale well above the next best feat to begin with

 

[DontTalkDT]

Which doesn't really matter. It's stated that they define such concepts, and that they're all-powerful.

"All powerful" is not a meaningful statement. NLF, hyperbole etc.

And... I think I already gave examples regarding "define such concepts". Remember the 6-C character that defines the concepts of the whole multiverse? Yeah. As a general rule embodying the concept of something just doesn't give you AP equal to that something. Just because you are all moisture in the universe you don't get a high tier unless you have feats of actually moving all of that at once. (or otherwise fulfill stabilization standards)

Also, Aang still absorbed the entirety of the ocean spirit, and therefore the whole ass ocean and said 'I'm as powerful as ever'.

If he literally absorbed it, then you could do an AP calc on the water movement and we were done here. But he only metaphysically absorbed it, i.e. the water is still outside of him and not all moved.

So that doesn't help.

Also, the moon and the ocean's push and pull and rotation is considered their 'dance' around each other, and they do it eternally.

So do our real life moon and ocean. You can't pass that off as an AP feat. They can't weaponize that and natural phenomena caused by physics can not be considered feats for their energy.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Thing with the tidal forces is that they come from the moons gravity... which scales to nobody due to being a physical force, while benders use chi.

Tui and La are eternally pushing and pulling against one another. Tui (the moon) pushes the world's tides. Yue also comes down from the moon to help Aang.

 

[ByAsura]

"All powerful" is not a meaningful statement. NLF, hyperbole etc.

Unless it's by the spirits themselves.

And... I think I already gave examples regarding "define such concepts". Remember the 6-C character that defines the concepts of the whole multiverse? Yeah. As a general rule embodying the concept of something just doesn't give you AP equal to that something.

Which doesn't apply here because this isn't a concept or happening on a conceptual level. This is an actual moon with comparable durability and the ability to control the tides.

Just because you are all moisture in the universe you don't get a high tier unless you have feats of actually moving all of that at once. (or otherwise fulfill stabilization standards)

If he literally absorbed it, then you could do an AP calc on the water movement and we were done here. But he only metaphysically absorbed it, i.e. the water is still outside of him and not all moved.

It does help. Once again, the ocean and moon literally dance. They move, and they balance against each other in an act of push and pull, and it's attributed to them rather than natural forces like the roche limit and gravity.

 

[DontTalkDT]

And the solidity of it was never the OP's argument to begin with, by his own admission. And to begin with, it wouldn't be an outlier if it's only scaling to the strongest characters in the verse, who already scale well above the next best feat to begin with

An outlier isn't necessarily a contradiction. It's just a notable deviation of a regular set of data. Which wouldn't be a problem if we had an actual feat and not just a light in the sky going on and out.

And I can take factors into account beyond the OP

Tui and La are eternally pushing and pulling against one another. Tui (the moon) pushes the world's tides.

Which is a fantasy description of how the real life phenomenon of tides is produced in real life.

Yue also comes down from the moon to help Aang.

Not sure how that factors into anything. Isn't exactly 5-C.

(Anway, gonna be sleeping now and then be away until at least next evening cause I have a busy day tomorrow)

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

So do our real life moon and ocean. You can't pass that off as an AP feat.

Not sure how that factors into anything.

Jesus Christ.

 

[ByAsura]

So do our real life moon and ocean. You can't pass that off as an AP feat. They can't weaponize that and natural phenomena caused by physics can not be considered feats for their energy.

Which is a fantasy description of how the real life phenomenon of tides is produced in real life.

They aren't our real life moon and ocean, and Koizilla did weaponize the ocean in order to fight the fire navy.

It's not a balance in the natural way you're trying to claim, and it's not a fantastical explanation of gravity and tides.

• KOH: Their spirit names are Tui and La, push and pull. And that has been the nature of their relationship for all time.
• KOH: You've already met them, actually. Tui and La, your moon and ocean, have always circled each other in an eternal dance. They balance each other, push and pull, life and death, good and evil, yin and yang.

When the balance is disrupted, it's not some realistic depiction.

• Mike

  So, I think act three was kind of a challenge, 'cause it was all this couple just very monochromatic tones. [Refers to the color of the world turning red from Zhao's capture of the Moon Spirit.] There was the red section, [Refers to the color of the world being removed after Zhao kills the Moon Spirit.] and then the black and white section later. Was that difficult art direction-wise, Bryan?

  Bryan

  It was. There was a, like, okay, because red, and then there's a transition where the sky goes black, [Refers to when the moon completely disappears from the sky.] and you lose the moon. So, do we see the stars, do we not see the stars? And, um, yeah, you-you think it might be easy just having one color, [Refers to the firebenders' color palettes being briefly restored with orange hues when they are illuminated by their own or their opponent's fire blasts.] but then we have fire flashes, uh, where there's a little bit of color. [Refers to Yue's flashback sequence, where the colors are slightly muted.] I'm actu—speaking of color, I'm really happy with how this, uh, flashback sequence came out. Um, Hye-Jung Kim, color supervisor, just did a fantastic job. I love doing these monochromatic scenes, but, you know, they're not totally monochromatic, they're just limited palettes, usually. Little-little hints of color. [Refers to the close up shot of Yue as an infant, partially submerged in water that ripples out from her.] Great water animations. [Refers to the scene of Arnook and his wife holding a now white-haired Yue.] See the younger Pakku in... those scenes.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Yue also comes down from the moon to help Aang.

Now uh... I don't really follow Avatar like that.. But how is coming down from the moon a justification for 5C?
Maybe I'm tripping.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Now uh... I don't really follow Avatar like that.. But how is coming down from the moon a justification for 5C?
Maybe I'm tripping.

He said that the moon pulling the ocean doesn't count as an AP feat, and I posted an ap feat of the moon spirit literally pulling the ocean.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

He said that the moon pulling the ocean doesn't count as an AP feat, and I posted an ap feat of the moon spirit literally pulling the ocean.

Pulling the ocean?
Sounds like gravity/LS or something..

 

[ByAsura]

Basically, the counter-arguments are that the moon spirit (who is the moon) shouldn't scale to its own gravitational pull and dance with the oceans because it's just a natural law of physics that it can't weaponize.

What we've proved is that it's unnatural, and the moon spirit can control its gravity at will.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

So... DontTalkDT agrees with this downgrade thread? I'd have thought it would be rejected unanimously, but this introduces more contention than I thought plausible for an upgrade that previously had 6-0 staff approval.

 

[Kachon123]

Yeah I completely disagree with the OP.

Tui and La are LITERALLY the Moon and the Ocean. I don't even follow Avatar like that and I know how many times it's been reiterated in the story. I'm honestly surprised that this is a topic of contention.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree with @ByAsura

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Yeah, it would be bull if the rating gets rejected just because of one mod.

Basically, the counter-arguments are that the moon spirit (who is the moon) shouldn't scale to its own gravitational pull and dance with the oceans because it's just a natural law of physics that it can't weaponize.

What we've proved is that it's unnatural, and the moon spirit can control its gravity at will.

Also, the moon spirit exists as the moon in the spirit world, which is a realm where gravity and distance are wonky, as the Legend of Korra shows.

 

[KingTempest]

ngl

although i can see them being the moon and ocean, i disagree with them scaling to... well... the gbe of the moon. they don't attack with that

can't yall just calc the feats you're stating in this thread?

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

I agree with ByAsura and disagree with the OP

 

[ByAsura]

ngl

although i can see them being the moon and ocean, i disagree with them scaling to... well... the gbe of the moon. they don't attack with that

Then they won't scale to the GBE of the moon, they'll scale to manipulating the tides and the moon's gravity, which it's explicitly shown that they have control over.

can't yall just calc the feats you're stating in this thread?

It's not really those kinds of feats.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

That seems to make sense, I'll agree with that then.

 

[KingTempest]

Then they won't scale to the GBE of the moon, they'll scale to manipulating the tides and the moon's gravity, which it's explicitly shown that they have control over.

It's not really those kinds of feats.

I'm pretty sure you can calc pushing and pulling the entire ocean.

 

[Propellus]

Asura seems to makes sense here for the most part, although I'm not too knowledgeable on the lore behind the koi fishes

 

[ByAsura]

I thought you meant the harmonic convergence stuff.

I think the moon's gravitational effect and even its KE are High 6-A.

 

[Kachon123]

although i can see them being the moon and ocean, i disagree with them scaling to... well... the gbe of the moon. they don't attack with that

You disagree with the Moon being Moon level?

 

[ByAsura]

Honestly, I can see it in hindsight.

Are buildings Building level when they can't throw a punch?

 

[Kachon123]

False equivalence fallacy

 

[ByAsura]

I don't see how

obviously, 5-C would scale to the moon spirit's durability, though

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

I mean, if Yue, as the moon, decided to smash into the Earth, wouldn't that be a moon-level attack?

 

[ByAsura]

That'd be valid if we knew she could do that.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Honestly, I can see it in hindsight.

Are buildings Building level when they can't throw a punch?

Idk but they're probably building level if they fall over and topple another one.

 

[ByAsura]

Which requires outside forces.

 

[KingTempest]

I thought you meant the harmonic convergence stuff.

Nada

I think the moon's gravitational effect and even its KE are High 6-A.

Interesting

You disagree with the Moon being Moon level?

I disagree with the moon attacking with moon level attack potency.

"Moon level" is just the GBE of the moon, which is just the energy that keeps the moon together.
Cratering the moon, slightly moving the moon, even completely pulverizing the moon isn't 5-C. I fail to see why it gains 5-C attack potency when it never attacks with 5-C power