At the boundary of tier 0: Swirl of the root tier 0 upgrade

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

Theme playing:

To celebrate FGO NA's 7th anniversary (sorry silverking and violatas) i am introducing the thread to upgrade the root to tier 0. Big thanks to Theoritical, Tdjwo and King Nanaya. Let's begin.

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PART 1: DIVINE SIMPLICTY ARGUMENTS

1.The One

First of all, what is "The One"? Well, Ultima may already have told you about the Monad. To those who don't know, the Monad is the native Greek name for the omnipotent being of Pythagoreanism. Monad literally means "One" because it was thought that because all numbers come after the number 1 therefore all numbers are dependent and subordinate to the Number 1 including Infinity.


The Monad is also identified by Xenocrates, as we learn from Plutarch (Proc. An. 1012E), as ‘the undivided and unchanging’ element in the formation of the World-Soul by the Demiurge at Timaeus 35A.

What is "The One" then? The One is basically what Neoplatonists call the Monad.


The first and highest aspect of God is described by Plato as the One (Τὸ Ἕν, 'To Hen'), the source, or the Monad.
The One is an ineffable principal from which all things derive and all things return to

the one, aka the monad, is the solution to the ancient problem of one over many.


The One and the Many is a greek philosophical problem states that there must be root behind all things in the universe, whether it is the physical world, or the world of mathematics and logic itself, all of logic, mathematics and time and space must be ROOTED under one thing. Why is that there must be a mysterious root under one thing? TLDR: It's because all of logic, mathematics and time and space are all "things" and are all part of "existence" and "existence" is one thing and all these things interact as if they have correlation so what is the correlation behind time, space, logic and mathematics? The answer is the omnipotent being, aka the "the one"

Philosophers from time immemorial are still trying to solve what this "the one" is. But whatever it is, it must not be made up of more than 1 part, it is a SINGULAR Concept. It cannot be made up of parts because you would have to ask what is the explanation behind the unity of the different parts of the the one. To terminate infinite regress. The one must be Singular, Simple yet Boundless. This, my friends, is Divine simplicity.


Why am i bringing up "The One". Cause The root is literally described as the one. Several times.

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And of course, how it works is also similar to The One itself.


—The swirl of the Root is a "place" where all causalities interlace, where all things are in potential, and therefore where nothing is whatsoever. That is my true shape. Though I am merely bound to it, I am nonetheless a part of it. And the part and the whole of a nothingness are the same, wouldn't you say?


It has been stated to be "Everything and Nothing" So it has necessary unifying existence. It unifies all things, yet it also isn't any of the things it unifies, so it's The One. So yeah, just 1 part. It just means all the building blocks exist there, capable of creating anything. But not all things have been created with them, and thus said building blocks are just potential and thus "nothing" in a metaphorical sense.


"—The swirl of the Root is a 'place' where all causalities interlace, where all things are in potential, and therefore where nothing is whatsoever." - Kara no Kyoukai: Epilogue

Notice that Ryougi (Void) even puts "place" in quotation marks, before anyone thinks this means it's just another space-time realm. And she does this consistently:


"—Shiki is looking at the outside, while I am looking at the interior. But the interior, Ryougi Shiki's body, is in communion with that "place" they call the Root. So even though I see only the inside of her, I see...everything." - Kara no Kyoukai: Epilogue


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Akasha, also known as the Root, the Swirl of the Root, the Spiral of Origin, the Seat of God, " ", 「　」, and many other names, is the omnipotent supreme boundless source of the Type Moon franchise capable of creating anything. The beginning and end of all of creation. Akasha/The Root/The One is the singular source of all existence. True boundlessness from which all reason flows. All things flow from that singular source and diversifies. It is omnipotence without a mind. It is beyond all dimensional theory and is beyond any limited version of infinity in regards to mathematics. Infinity as we know it in mathematics is contingent on the finite to exist.




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"Beyond and below lay only darkness. This void, lifeless place could only mean one thing: I was dead. Without anything to even clothe me, I, Shiki Ryougi, floated, and then sank slowly into the fathomless, lightless sea. There was no end in sight. There was nothing in sight, neither light, and yes, perhaps even darkness. This place was only a hollow, where all meaning ceased to be. A stygian abyss that could not be put into words, and without words it shall remain: a cypher called, simply, “ ”. I fell deeper into the “ ”, and my naked body slowly acquired the pallor of the grave, and it made me want to look away. In my mind, I knew that everything in this place comes to be the same way. “Is this death?” I whispered, though it came out so faint, I doubted if it was even real. Though time too had no meaning inside “ ”, I observed it. Like a stream tracing out into the infinite, like the process of decay, I mark it. It was an eternity. I plunged ever deeper, and cast my eyes farther, and in that eternity, this place was still empty, devoid of anything except me. And yet, it was all so calm and serene. It feels as if, in this place without meaning, the fact that I existed at all fits me. Here lay entropy, the end of all things, a place the living may never observe, but only the dead may enter. I died. And yet I am still alive. I felt my mind about to lose its grip. Two years. An instant, stretched out to an eternity. Both are accurate measures of my time spent in this “ ”. Here, I touched death. Here, I fought for my life. Here, I awakened." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 4



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Taiji [Others]

A philosophy originated in ancient China, a graphical representation of the Yin-Yang theory. It attempts to capture the essence of everything on a conceptual level: those that are active are defined as Yang (white), and the opposite are defined as Yin (black).

The Taiji symbolizes opposing concepts such as day and night, light and darkness, male and female. At the same time, you may also call it a condensed version of the ever-changing, dynamic World.

Furthermore, there is a dot of Yin in Yang, and conversely a dot of Yang in Yin. This indicates that the distinction between Yin and Yang is not absolute. There is darkness even in light.Taiji is the "one" at the beginning, the Yin and Yang that divide the "one" are called Liangyi (Ryougi). - Kara no Kyoukai Special Pamphlet - Encyclopedia: Taiji



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"Hmph. Do you like things that are one that much, Araya? Light and darkness weren't divided because they had to oppose each other, but because that had the potential for containing the greatest number of things" - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5


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If you really wished to pronounce this term, call it “Kara.”Its meaning varied depending on each individual’s understanding. To put it in simple terms, it was the Spiral of Origin.However, since the Spiral of Origin was called the Spiral of Origin, it was no longer “ ”.To properly express this term was a source of headache during the production of the drama CDs. -Garden of sinners Pamphlet: Kara no Kyoukai Settings Glossary


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When we speak about occultism, theories on dimensions say that there is a 'power' from outside this world.Pinpoint the beginning of all things. That is the dearest wish of all magi, the 'root', ... The place of God, Akashic Records, the records of the beginning and the end of all things that creates everything in this world. - Fate/Zero - Prologue



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The number 1 must exist for number 2 to exist, which must exist for number 3 to exist, and so on all the way to infinity. Infinity is traced back to 1 in the end and is contingent upon it as its foundation. Furthermore, the infinity observed in space-time (infinite size) has boundaries still in a sense. Sure, it has no physical boundaries, but it has limits still. It is not all-encompassing or capable of existing on its own. It relies on the abstract fundamental concepts that govern space-time to exist. So even the infinity of space-time has boundaries in a sense, just not physical boundaries. If something truly has NO boundaries at ALL, it isn't infinity, but 「The One」.


The One isn't infinity. It is boundlessness. It is not contingent on anything. It is self-referencing. It's the Unactualized Actualizer upon which all things flow from and are contingent upon. It is the absolute One that two, three, four, and so on stem from and are contingent upon, and thus The One can be said to have Empty Boundaries, or is Empty Boundaries itself. And that's why the name of the series is Empty Boundaries (Kara no Kyoukai):


Infinity is not “ ”. In order to render infinity, one must define limits. Without limits, infinity does not exist. Infinity can be observed because objects possess limits. Ryougi Shiki was immersed in infinity, but found the non-existent limit and severed it. Of course, limits do not exist within infinity, thus one cannot sever something that does not exist. As a result, escaping from this prison is impossible. However -- - without limits, infinity does not exist. Regardless if a finite wall existed, an limitless world is meaningless before Ryougi Shiki. If there is no limit, then it is not infinity, but “ ”. If limits exist, then Ryougi would find it and cut away everything.…. What is supposed to be an absolute black hole, to an opponent such as Ryougi Shiki is merely a confined dark cell. The magus felt ashamed of himself. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5



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It is also the source of all supernatural phenomena and powers:



A general term for the act of artificially reenacting mysteries and miracles.

Although each school has its individual differences, it is basically a mechanism for using the magical energy in the practitioner's body or the outside world, in order to reenact a predetermined phenomenon. The practitioner sends an order (command) to the foundation (system) controlled by their school, and a pre-made function (program) is executed. The "electrical current" needed to send that command and execute the program is magical energy.

Though sorcery may seem almighty, it is basically the bringing about of mysteries by means of equivalent exchange. - Melty Blood Act Cadenza PS2 Manual - Dictionary: Magecraft [Term], p.049


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A necessary step in the activation of magecraft.

While utilizing an established school of magecraft, one must strictly follow a set protocol. Spellcasting is one step in this protocol.

An analogy would be the application process of a document, which would include application, acceptance, review, and finally issuance. Spellcasting would be the “application” step.

In the case of utilizing magecraft with a broad Foundation, spellcasting is mostly a convention. However, for those who practice their own style of magecraft, spellcasting has potent self-suggestive powers.

In the bodies of magi, the Magic Circuits which shape magecraft already exist.

Incantations are the “personal adage” that help the magi transform themselves. They are a method to efficiently activate and mobilize the Magic Circuits.

Spellcasting is not a method to speak to the World, but a method to speak to oneself. Even for the same spell, different magi will utilize different incantations due to their distinct natures.

As an aside, spells that speak to the World rather than oneself are classified as Grand Spells or Grand Rituals, and it is impossible for an individual to use such spells. - Kara no Kyoukai Special Pamphlet - Spellcasting [Other]



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A general term representing activities that artificially reenact Mysteries/Miracles.

Although there were some differences depending on traditions and schools, the basic principle was still “the transformation of the magical energy that exists within the practitioner or the environment.”

The practitioner would issue Commands according to the Foundation (System) of his school, and this would cause the execution of a predetermined Program.

Magical energy was the electrical current required to deliver the command.

Although magecraft gave the impression of omnipotence, it fundamentally produced Mystery through the principle of equivalent exchange.

It was possible to transform one thing into another, but it was impossible to produce something from nothing.

However, the essence of magecraft as a discipline was to challenge that “Nothingness,” and endeavor towards the impossible. Large-scale spells such as the so-called Grand Sorceries, Grand Rituals were really purposeless if not for attempting to reach “ ” (kara) or True Magic.





Kara no Kyoukai was a story of one magus’ attempt at challenging “Nothingness. - Kara no Kyoukai Special Pamphelt - Magecraft [Other]



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The art we call sorcery, it's definitely something outside our everyday reality. In the end, though, it's still nothing more than making something that is possible normally happen under extraordinary circumstances. Should I give you an example?

Take making it rain, for example. Whether it's through science or magic, the result is indistinguishable. It's just that the method is different; the amount of effort that goes into it is nearly the same. Sorcery may appear to be the work of an instant, but the preparatory steps required are extensive. If you take the time and money spent, it’s nearly equivalent to making the rainclouds with science. In the past, that really was something close to a miracle. By today's standards, however, it's not a miracle or anything of the sort. Previously, any mage that could turn a whole village to ashes was hailed as a wizard, but these days if you have money, that's something anyone can do. All that is required is to throw one missile.” - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5



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And the Swirl of the root is already likened to Wuji, so there's that which implies it's undifferentiated and the explanation that happens in the OG and remake version of tsukihime saying contingent entities are too far removed and too complex to return to the initial first cause.

And lastly Arcueid explaining common ways the root is described, information and an archive of all things but says it's neither information nor an archive of existence and it's just "existence" and nothing more.

Implying it cannot be reducible to anything but just is "existence" which is not distinguishable in a real sense from it being an archive of all things, information and being all things.

Which should work fine for Non-dualism and Divine Simplicity.

To Conclude, the Root is the ontologically Perfect Divinely simple source which is logically tier 0.


Additional explanation (IMPORTANT)

Spoiler: Further explanations

There are three manifestations of the ultimate reality within the nasuverse, the Swirl of the root, the Akashic Records and Kara. They are all ultimately the same thing, just different aspects of the same ultimate reality, even the names are used interchangeably for the different aspects.


Rooted in the Nous of hermeticism, akasha is a metaphysical plane of existence, it is said to record all things, happenings and records all of knowledge. These records are the source of extensions of the material, as a result of the world being fashioned using the information in akasha.

When it is said that the akashic records are the source of all things, it is meant to signify the information within it being used as blueprint to create the material world. The material world is said to not guarantee permanence and that the only eternal thing is something formless, the only notion said to be worthy of being called eternal is the only true record, which never changes even to the perspective of the observer who can assign different meanings to objects of reality.

The origin is implied to be the core of your soul, as its stated that the origin is the true essence of the ultimate reality deep within the souls of all things. It is also called a record, the records are then stated to be not affected by anything even your own thoughts, they're said to easy eternally even if the world one day disappears, they will remain and forever remain to be unchangeable as seen again here.

The Swirl of the root is another aspect of the same supreme source, all phenomena flowed from the Swirl of the root. The idea of phenomena flowing from the ultimate reality, being the process of emanation whereby all things in reality are transitioning to multiplicity through immediate emanations and mediate emanations. Because everything is an emanation of the Swirl of the root, everything is fundamentally connected to it, the degree of the connection can vary just as higher emanations of the ultimate reality always remain less divisible than the multiplicity they tend to underly.

She continues with an unsteady voice, staring at him.As if she is pouring out a lonely feeling that no one can understand."...the vortex of origin. A place where all causes are swirling, where everything is prepared, and therefore there is nothing. That is my true identity. I am only connected to it, but I am a part of it.

The Swirl of the root is a place where everything is prepared/predetermined in akasha and where there's nothing, but they are one and the same with different functions. Because it is the source of everything, capable of recording and creating anything, it cannot be fundamentally categorized under anything it creates.

In reality, it is “ultimate knowledge” Intellectual wisdom has created a standard called the ultimate, and in the end it has become a finite thing, which is why it is called this way. It's not correct, but I'm doing it that way because it's the easiest to understand. Originally, all the magic systems that are widespread in the world are based on the thin river that flows from this vortex.

So much so that if you form a standard such as "ultimate knowledge" to refer to it, because it is fundamentally intellectual wisdom which regards it as that, which derives from the root and it cannot be said to be an accurate description of the ultimate reality itself, because it limits it to what it created and precedes.

Even infinity is not it, because in order to render infinity. Limits must be defined and without limits, infinity does not exist for example ℵ00, is defined as a set of N {1, 2, 3, 4, 5....N}. It has well defined properties that make it and distinguishes it from other things. Spurious infinity is understood as always requiring limits to be defined to create it, for example for N and any n the natural number successor of n, is always n+1 and for any n, there's always another successor to n.

If there is not limit, then it is not infinity, but the Swirl of the root. Because of this a limitless world is meaningless before the eyes of direct death. Because it's transcendence isn't understood as simply being beyond the material world, it's understood as a radical state of being free from all restrictions, where even definitions and names limit it and make it finite, because for all definitions for something means that something is limited by its definition. An undifferentiated state of reality, where divisions arise from.

A philosophy originated in ancient China, a graphical representation of the Yin-Yang theory.
It attempts to capture the essence of everything on a conceptual level: those that are active are defined as Yang (white), and the opposite are defined as Yin (black).
The Taiji symbolizes opposing concepts such as day and night, light and darkness, male and female. At the same time, you may also call it a condensed version of the ever-changing, dynamic World.
Furthermore, there is a dot of Yin in Yang, and conversely a dot of Yang in Yin. This indicates that the distinction between Yin and Yang is not absolute. There is darkness even in light.
Taiji is the “one” at the beginning, the Yin and Yang that divide the “one” are called Liangyi1.
As an aside, the magi in this story were all practitioners of Western magecraft who were incompatible with Chinese philosophies.

Through Taiji which derives from the root itself; while it still remains fundamentally free from dual distinctions.

Arcueid even clarifies as to how even the distinctions between the aspects don't exist, it's completely oneness, as she states at the Swirl of the root there is an "archive of all things", then proceeds to say, "it's less of an 'archive' and more of just an 'existence'; not really information. It is 'existence', nothing."

It simply "exists," nothing more. It's impossible to make a distinction between its attributes such as being an archive and its existence, hence it is neither information nor an archive of all things. Because there are no distinctions or divisions within it, it is all that it is and it in itself simply is and nothing more, all names of it are just convenient terms to express that which is beyond all descriptive terms that form "being" and "categories" and by extension exceeds categories as well.

Everything flowed from it from simplicity to multiplicity but to its absolutely simple nature, the created or contingent beings are far too hopelessly complex to return to the simple absolute first, as they're mediate emanations rather than immediate emanations.

Amala-Vijnana・Kara no Kyoukai**
Rank:
Type: Anti-Unit
Range: 1~999
Maximum Targets: 64*** people
An all-party attack that applies the theory of the mystic eyes of direct death, severing the targets' "lines of death".
The sword stroke of the afterlife released from nirvana bestows peace to all existences

The eyes of death sever the "lines of death" of all things, a stroke of the afterlife released from Swirl of the root called Nirvana here, they bestow peace to all things, it is called Amala-Vijnana, Amala-consciousness otherwise called pure consciousness. Amala-Consciousness ［阿摩羅識］In Buddhism it is the ninth and deepest of the nine consciousness, it is free from all defilement and corresponds to the nature of Buddha. It is said that at the moment of enlightenment, the eighth consciousness cease to be and are replaced by the ninth.

Dawn is approaching."

"All is a dream... this is the flower of the end.

空が明けるわ。"

"すべては夢と……これが、名残の花よ。
SABER (SHIKI RYOUGI)

Ryougi when making use of the eyes of direct death, she speaks of all being a dream

Doesn't that mean we are the same being? So I can do anything. ...Yes, I can even rearrange the laws of matter that are so small that they are invisible to the naked eye, or even go back and change the Phylogenetic tree of living things themselves.It's easy to rearrange the order of the world as it is now. Not to remake this world, but to crush the old world with a new world."She says, laughing softly.She twists her mouth as if to despise herself, saying it's ridiculous. "...But there's no point in doing that. It just makes you tired. That's no different from dreaming. So I dream of not seeing anything, not thinking about anything, not even dreaming....But it seems Shiki and I have different dreams. Shiki says he doesn't like being alone. Don't you think that's a boring dream? Yes, what a boring Shiki. What a boring reality. What a boring me."

she speaks of living and exercising her general power as being something equivalent to dreaming as well, similar to his when drilling through the accretions and delusions in the other levels of consciousness, one finds pure wisdom of the ninth consciousness, which can wash away all impurities and you observe the fundamental nature of reality itself.

To gain enlightenment, everything must return to the swirl of the root, a state that rejects life because if humans achieve completion, all meaning of life vanishes.

If you really wished to pronounce this term, call it “Kara.” Its meaning varied depending on each individual’s understanding. To put it in simple terms, it was the Spiral of Origin. However, since the Spiral of Origin was called the Spiral of Origin, it was no longer “ ”. To properly express this term was a source of headache during the production of the drama CDs.

It is possible that 「　 」may very well be more fundamental out of the three aspects, but even it in itself is fundamentally in distinguishable from all of them, sometimes they are referred to interchangeably but「　 」represents the nature of it as a force that is difficult to describe as it is so unfathomable there can be no point of reference to it.

Sooooo it's unchangeable, Non-Dual/Indivisible, Eternal, Self-Sufficient, all-encompassing of "being", Absolute and Ineffable.

Agree: Ultima, Crimson, Plank, Theglassman
Disagree: DeagonX
Neutral:

(PLEASE DON'T CLOSE THE THREAD, WE STILL HAVE INFORMATION TO ADD INCLUDING NEGATIVE THEOLOGY, I AM WAITING FOR THEORITICAL AND TDJWO)

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Bro the new Tiering System ain't even applied yet. Chill out.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Just gonna point out multiple things scale to the root, so it'd be automatically DQ'd from tier 0

 

[Tdjwo]

Just gonna point out multiple things scale to the root, so it'd be automatically DQ'd from tier 0

If you can prove this claim, I would give you USD1000. That's how confident I am that you're very wrong.

 

[DaReaperMan]

If you can prove this claim, I would give you USD1000. That's how confident I am that you're very wrong.

Ryougi Shiki

Shiki Ryougi (両りょう儀ぎ 式しき, Ryōgi Shiki?) is the protagonist of Kara no Kyoukai and the bearer of the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, allowing her to see death and bring it upon anything "alive" for as long as she can run her knife across its Lines of Death. Hailing from a family of demon...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Someone able to affect the root

Shiki Tohno

Shiki Tohno is the protagonist of Tsukihime. Born as Shiki Nanaya, to the Nanaya clan of demon-killing assassins, Shiki was adopted by Makihisa Tohno after the massacre of the Nanaya clan. He was raised as Shiki Tohno, lost memory of his former life as one of the Nanaya, and continued his life...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Soul destruction on the level of the root

The entire point of the holy grails is to open a path to the root, which can be seen on this page

Caster (Irisviel)

Caster is a Caster-class Servant who can be summoned by Ritsuka Fujimaru in the Grand Orders of Fate/Grand Order. Caster's True Name is Irisviel von Einzbern, also known as the Dress of Heaven. In an alternate possibility where she was the perfected Holy Grail vessel instead of her daughter...

vsbattles.fandom.com

I'll be taking my grand now

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Ryougi Shiki

Shiki Ryougi (両りょう儀ぎ 式しき, Ryōgi Shiki?) is the protagonist of Kara no Kyoukai and the bearer of the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, allowing her to see death and bring it upon anything "alive" for as long as she can run her knife across its Lines of Death. Hailing from a family of demon...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Someone able to affect the root

She is the root.

Shiki Tohno

Shiki Tohno is the protagonist of Tsukihime. Born as Shiki Nanaya, to the Nanaya clan of demon-killing assassins, Shiki was adopted by Makihisa Tohno after the massacre of the Nanaya clan. He was raised as Shiki Tohno, lost memory of his former life as one of the Nanaya, and continued his life...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Soul destruction on the level of the root

This is outdated since Roa's thing got downgraded since it was found to not actually be a thing.

 

[DaReaperMan]

She is the root.

Doesn't matter, this is another being with anything remotely attaching itself to the root.

At least that's what I understand from the new tiering system

This is outdated since Roa's thing got downgrade since it was found to not actually be a thing.

Then remove it from the ******' profile.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

This thread lowkey hurts to read, but: Yeah, all-in-all this looks like a prim and proper Tier 0. I don't have anything whatsoever to object with, when it comes to the substance of the information.

That said, I'm curious on one bit: You said that the Akashic Records, the Root and "Kara" are "three manifestations of the ultimate reality." Is this to imply that they are literally three different things? Or are they just different ways at looking at one and the same thing? Are they to be tiered differently, or are they the exact same?

Doesn't matter, this is another being with anything remotely attaching itself to the root.

There is no issue with someone being an avatar/incarnation of a Tier 0.

Given what the guy up there said, the only thing that seems remotely concerning here is the "Blow a path to the Root" thing, and even this could conceivably pose no issue, depending on what it means. Is there any information on that?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

By the by, given how controversial this is, both because of the verse it's from and because it's a Tier 0 CRT, I've took the liberty to move this to Staff Discussion. The OP can still freely input here, of course. If I don't delete a post, it's because it has my permission to stick around.

 

[DaReaperMan]

There is no issue with someone being an avatar/incarnation of a Tier 0.

Given what the guy up there said, the only thing that seems remotely concerning here is the "Blow a path to the Root" thing, and even this could conceivably pose no issue, depending on what it means. Is there any information on that?

Basically think of the holy grails as a wish-granting device that could even change history. It's been awhile since I read on this last bit so take it with a shovelful of salt, but the making a path to the root thing is theorized by various mages and whatnot, OR it could be how the grails grant wishes at all. I do not remember which

 

[Tdjwo]

Ryougi Shiki

Shiki Ryougi (両りょう儀ぎ 式しき, Ryōgi Shiki?) is the protagonist of Kara no Kyoukai and the bearer of the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, allowing her to see death and bring it upon anything "alive" for as long as she can run her knife across its Lines of Death. Hailing from a family of demon...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Someone able to affect the root

She is the root. Everyone knows this by now.

Shiki Tohno

Shiki Tohno is the protagonist of Tsukihime. Born as Shiki Nanaya, to the Nanaya clan of demon-killing assassins, Shiki was adopted by Makihisa Tohno after the massacre of the Nanaya clan. He was raised as Shiki Tohno, lost memory of his former life as one of the Nanaya, and continued his life...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Soul destruction on the level of the root

Outdated asf profile. There was a crt for this specifically.

The entire point of the holy grails is to open a path to the root, which can be seen on this page

Caster (Irisviel)

Caster is a Caster-class Servant who can be summoned by Ritsuka Fujimaru in the Grand Orders of Fate/Grand Order. Caster's True Name is Irisviel von Einzbern, also known as the Dress of Heaven. In an alternate possibility where she was the perfected Holy Grail vessel instead of her daughter...

vsbattles.fandom.com

I'll be taking my grand now

First of all, this was never proven to be true because it literally got destroyed. Secondly, this isn't a holy grail. Rather, it's the Greater grail.

 

[DontTalkDT]

There is no issue with someone being an avatar/incarnation of a Tier 0.

The idea seems to be, though, that Void Shiki uses the Root power as wish-granting device. That strongly implies reactionary power usage.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

The idea seems to be, though, that Void Shiki uses the Root power as wish-granting device. That strongly implies reactionary power usage.

Not really. If the Root is the grounding and source of everything in the verse, past and future, then it being used as a "wish-granting device" by its own incarnation would be nothing other than it, itself, ordaining both the request and the response to that request in the same act.

Though, looking at it now, the profile does talk about how Shiki "manipulates and bends" the Root. That's pretty damn suspicious, so, I invite the verse supporters to provide context to that. Anyone?

 

[Tdjwo]

This thread lowkey hurts to read, but: Yeah, all-in-all this looks like a prim and proper Tier 0. I don't have anything whatsoever to object with, when it comes to the substance of the information.

Great. Should I assume you agree with the crt?

That said, I'm curious on one bit: You said that the Akashic Records, the Root and "Kara" are "three manifestations of the ultimate reality." Is this to imply that they are literally three different things? Or are they just different ways at looking at one and the same thing? Are they to be tiered differently, or are they the exact same?

Swirl of the Root, Akasha, and 「　」 are different names or aspects of the same entity, which is the ultimate source of all existence and non-existence; they are stages or levels of the God head, each representing a different degree of closeness or distance from the true nature of the entity. The Spiral of Origin is the name given to the entity by the human perspective, as it is the origin of all phenomena and concepts. Akasha is the name given to the entity by the magecraft perspective, as it is the repository of all information and possibilities. 「　」is the state of nothingness and emptiness that transcends all definitions and limitations.

Given what the guy up there said, the only thing that seems remotely concerning here is the "Blow a path to the Root" thing, and even this could conceivably pose no issue, depending on what it means. Is there any information on that?

He's talking about the Greater Grail. It is used by sacrificing 7 servants to open a pathway to the root. But there are several issues with this statement. Firstly, while this statement does indeed exist, we never ever see this happen/succeed due to either the families involved betraying one another or with the case of Angra Mainyu corrupting and ******* everything up. Secondly, this "idea" that you can reach the root with the greater grail was created by mages and as far as we know from Touko Aozaki (One of the greatest mages in the verse), every single attempt or logic created by mages to reach the Root were simply false and impossible. So in other words, it's also very possible that the idea of the greater grail reaching the root was most likely bs.

All in all, there really isn't any evidence that the greater grail could open any pathway to the root. If it could, then most mages would have succeeded by now.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Though, looking at it now, the profile does talk about how Shiki "manipulates and bends" the Root. That's pretty damn suspicious, so, I invite the verse supporters to provide context to that. Anyone?

What of this?

 

[Tdjwo]

The idea seems to be, though, that Void Shiki uses the Root power as wish-granting device. That strongly implies reactionary power usage.

No. You are misunderstanding it a little. Void Shiki IS the "wish granting device"

 

[Tdjwo]

What of this?

That is most likely wrong implementation of words. She doesn't manipulate the root. That wouldn't make sense.

 

[SweetDao]

I'm confused, it's supposed to be a staff thread, but everyone can comment?

 

[Tdjwo]

People, just bring scans of what Void Shiki does so it's not "but HE said"

If you read the novels at all, you wouldn't ignore this statement

Doesn't that mean we are the same being? So I can do anything. ...Yes, I can even rearrange the laws of matter that are so small that they are invisible to the naked eye, or even go back and change the Phylogenetic tree of living things themselves.It's easy to rearrange the order of the world as it is now. Not to remake this world, but to crush the old world with a new world."She says, laughing softly.She twists her mouth as if to despise herself, saying it's ridiculous. "...But there's no point in doing that. It just makes you tired. That's no different from dreaming. So I dream of not seeing anything, not thinking about anything, not even dreaming....But it seems Shiki and I have different dreams. Shiki says he doesn't like being alone. Don't you think that's a boring dream? Yes, what a boring Shiki. What a boring reality. What a boring me"

She choses not to do any of these things because they are pointless to her as she represents Emptiness itself. I order words, she has no "feats" to show. But her statements itself tell everything. Pretty sure most of the Tier 0 monads dont have any "feats" which makes perfect sense due to their nature.

I'm confused, it's supposed to be a staff thread, but everyone can comment?

I was one of those who created the crt. But I agree, some others here are just commenting without perms.

 

[SweetDao]

I was one of those who created the crt. But I agree, some others here are just commenting without perms.

I mean, in any case you're one of the knowledgeable member of the Nasuverse so it's fine/ I was just wondering if I can voice my opinion here and now or just wait for staff permission. Although, it would just be details/ questions to knowledgeable members.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I'm confused, it's supposed to be a staff thread, but everyone can comment?

Not everyone can comment, no. I'm deleting the unnecessary comments from regular members.

I mean, in any case you're one of the knowledgeable member of the Nasuverse so it's fine/ I was just wondering if I can voice my opinion here and now or just wait for staff permission. Although, it would just be details/ questions to knowledgeable members.

Granted.

 

[SweetDao]

Well, since Tdjwo is here, could you (or anyone else) explain to me the following statement ?

—Your wish, Kokutou. Tell me it. I can grant most human wishes. And Shiki seems to like you, so - what's mine by right is yours.

—Now tell me. What do you wish for?

While Shiki isn't the topic, it's kinda awkward that someone linked and more or less being able to act as "The Root" can only grant "most" of human wishes.

Similarly, on her FGO profile, Shiki is defined like this :

Connection to the Root: A
This was born of 『　』 and shall one day reach 『　』.
Separate the two polarities, circling the four symbols, and assemble the eight diagrams.
Her existence is the manifestation of the world's principles.
"Ryougi" means yin and yang in Taichi, "Shiki" is derived from mathematical formulas and the "shikigami."

In other words, the same qualities of the omnipotent wish granter itself.
Normal parameters will become meaningless to those in possession of this skill.

Yet, here's what Arcueid tell us when talking about the Holy Grail/Omnipotent wish granter :

The Holy Grail... A golden chalice.
I've heard how valuable it is, but it's quite small.
Is this enough to grant a wish, by human standards?
I thought it would be at least as large as a crater.
Ah, I was speaking of my own standards.

Similarly, here's how she described Void Shiki on her FGO profile :

A hole leading to the Root.
A will manifested in an empty vessel... I suppose such things can happen.
A dream that dwells not in the brain, but in the heart.
Primitive she may be, but not without beauty.
That said...
...Isn't she a little too violent?
Why does she swing a sword?
Stop making a mess of my flower garden.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

While Shiki isn't the topic, it's kinda awkward that someone linked and more or less being able to act as "The Root" can only grant "most" of human wishes.

Just going to note that a Tier 0 being incapable of accomplishing certain wishes that someone may have is fine. After all, a Tier 0 can't force itself to change, or destroy itself, or do anything going against its nature. So I don't believe this quote is problematic per se.

 

[SweetDao]

Just going to note that a Tier 0 being incapable of accomplishing certain wishes that someone may have is fine. After all, a Tier 0 can't force itself to change, or destroy itself, or do anything going against its nature. So I don't believe this quote is problematic per se.

Wouldn't that be an assumption that "the wishes Shiki couldn't grant are all related to The Root, be it it's potential change, destruction or something against it's will" rather than just assuming the wishes mentioned are something unrelated to The Root?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Wouldn't that be an assumption that "the wishes Shiki couldn't grant are all related to The Root, be it it's potential change, destruction or something against it's will" rather than just assuming the wishes mentioned are something unrelated to The Root?

I wouldn't say so, no. The Root seems to be generally characterized as all-encompassing, all-powerful, totally transcendent and etc, based on all that has been shown in this thread so far. With this established, and us accepting that there "things" even a Tier 0 can't enact, an ambiguous statement such as this one is not enough to overturn it. That would really just be forcing contradictions on a topic which the verse seems pretty decided on.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Not really. If the Root is the grounding and source of everything in the verse, past and future, then it being used as a "wish-granting device" by its own incarnation would be nothing other than it, itself, ordaining both the request and the response to that request in the same act.

That would only be the case is Shiki herself doesn't make the wish in reaction to anything and has always made the wish anyway, though. I doubt the root would always have done the thing anyway, even if Shiki hadn't been in a situation in which she decided to use the Root's powers. (which would basically mean no wishes could be grated, as anything you wish for would have happened anyway)
Reacting to things is basically a transitive property.

 

[SweetDao]

I wouldn't say so, no. The Root seems to be generally characterized as all-encompassing, all-powerful, totally transcendent and etc, based on all that has been shown in this thread so far. With this established, and us accepting that there "things" even a Tier 0 can't enact, an ambiguous statement such as this one is not enough to overturn it. That would really just be forcing contradictions on a topic which the verse seems pretty decided on.

I'm not really going against The Root, I'm sure some other people would do so (or not), but I feel like the idea of "assuming something that is clearly never explicated merely because we're on VSB hence we have to use that particular analytical lens" is kinda shaky.

Anyway, what about this part? We went from "she's The Root" to "she's a hole leading to it", which is also what the Holy Grail does to grant wish.

A hole leading to the Root.
A will manifested in an empty vessel... I suppose such things can happen.
A dream that dwells not in the brain, but in the heart.
Primitive she may be, but not without beauty.
That said...
...Isn't she a little too violent?
Why does she swing a sword?
Stop making a mess of my flower garden.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

That would only be the case is Shiki herself doesn't make the wish in reaction to anything and has always made the wish anyway, though. I doubt the root would always have done the thing anyway, even if Shiki hadn't been in a situation in which she decided to use the Root's powers. (which would basically mean no wishes could be grated, as anything you wish for would have happened anyway)
Reacting to things is basically a transitive property.

From the perspective of the Root itself, that would have been the case, yeah (Shiki making the wish), and there's no issue with that. I don't know how you go from "The Root always does the thing" to "No wishes can be granted," also. That doesn't really follow.

I'm not really going against The Root, I'm sure some other people would do so (or not), but I feel like the idea of "assuming something that is clearly never explicated merely because we're on VSB hence we have to use that particular analytical lens" is kinda shaky.

Not really. Generally, it's quite reasonable (Eminently reasonable, even) to assume that contradictions aren't really things that can be done, and that much is already built-in into the idea of Tier 0. It's the default human position to... anything, really. So given that, there being wishes that even the Root can't enact isn't a problem, insofar as these wishes can be simply logical absurdities (e.g. "I want to be as powerful as the Root")

Anyway, what about this part? We went from "she's The Root" to "she's a hole leading to it", which is also what the Holy Grail does to grant wish.

Are you saying there is a contradiction between Shiki being the Root and Shiki being "a hole leading to the Root?"

 

[Tdjwo]

I'm in class atm which is why I cant fully focus on this thread. I will address these later.

 

[SweetDao]

Not really. Generally, it's quite reasonable (Eminently reasonable, even) to assume that contradictions aren't really things that can be done, and that much is already built-in into the idea of Tier 0. It's the default human position to... anything, really. So given that, there being wishes that even the Root can't enact isn't a problem, insofar as these wishes can be simply logical absurdities (e.g. "I want to be as powerful as the Root")

Wishes by human standards? I don't think "The Root" would be something that regular human think about. Mages, maybe, but certainly not random humans.

You're not wrong on why you're presupposing this, you're just doing it in a way that necessarily has a bias toward the upcoming (or not) tier of The Root. By "bias" I don't mean that you're "biased" for the Nasuverse, but moreso that you're already analyzing each statement and/or future inconsistencies/statements/scans... under the guidance of "The Root is already tier 0". But it's not a problem, I'm not even there to argue against it, just bring up a point I'm myself pondering.

Are you saying there is a contradiction between Shiki being the Root and Shiki being "a hole leading to the Root?"

I think "contradiction" is a pretty big word. I just feel like there are several statements (shown in my post a bit above) that Shiki shares the qualities of the Holy Grail. Same Holy Grail who, after absorbing seven servants, can open a hole to the Root and grant a wish. Both can grant wishes (and more, in the case of Shiki) because they are connected to the Root (by different means, mind you).

I'm in class atm which is why I cant fully focus on this thread. I will address these later.

No problem, take your time. It's just some stuff I'm uncertain about.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Wishes by human standards? I don't think "The Root" would be something that regular human think about. Mages, maybe, but certainly not random humans.

That gets into verse specifics that I can't answer for. The clarification above is the most I'll pitch in.

You're not wrong on why you're presupposing this, you're just doing it in a way that necessarily has a bias toward the upcoming (or not) tier of The Root. By "bias" I don't mean that you're "biased" for the Nasuverse, but moreso that you're already analyzing each statement and/or future inconsistencies/statements/scans... under the guidance of "The Root is already tier 0".

More like, if the thing has a wealth of statements talking about its utter lack of limits, I am going to treat any other statements that purport to impute limitations to it with suspicion, if they be ambiguous and not clear-cut contradictions.

I think "contradiction" is a pretty big word. I just feel like there are several statements (shown in my post a bit above) that Shiki shares the qualities of the Holy Grail. Same Holy Grail who, after absorbing seven servants, can open a hole to the Root and grant a wish. Both can grant wishes (and more, in the case of Shiki) because they are connected to the Root (by different means, mind you).

Leaving that to the supporters, as above. Although I will say my suspicions are growing.

 

[SweetDao]

That gets into verse specifics that I can't answer for. The clarification above is the most I'll pitch in.

Yeah, in any case, I doubt whatever I brought up will change anything.

More like, if the thing has a wealth of statements talking about its utter lack of limits, I am going to treat any other statements that purport to impute limitations to it with suspicion, if they be ambiguous and not clear-cut contradictions.

Yeah, a hundred statement for the tier against one or two against it seems poor competition, but nothing is set in stone until the thread finish. That's what I mean.

Leaving that to the supporters, as above. Although I will say my suspicions are growing.

Fine by me. By the way, do I have unlimited comments permitted within this thread?

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

I got permission from Ultima to comment (or at least, I think I did?).

I can't say much about Void/「」Shiki since I haven't read The Garden of Sinners yet, but I wanted to post some quotes/scans from The Case Files of Lord El-Melloi II since I think they are relevant to this revision.

"After a moment of blankness, Gray replied with a difficult expression. "Umm...I heard
about it in class. What was it...the Spiral of Origin?"
"Right. The Spiral of Origin, or more simply the Root. Sometimes it's referred to as 「 」,
the thing for which there can be no reference. It is the source of everything, the 'zero'
from which all matter and phenomena flow. Ah, but now that I'm trying to put it into
words, I'm realizing that's not a good idea. After all, even the idea of 'zero' has baggage
that makes it unsuitable as a comparison."" - The Case Files of Lord El-Melloi II volume 2, page 82

"Even if they were some kind of superbeing that could cheat the laws of physics, magi
could never deceive thought itself.
In a way, it could be said that they were creatures that existed for that purpose. In order
to reach the unreachable 「 」, they were existences that had gathered together the full
sum of their will. Gathered together all manners of Concepts." - The Case Files of Lord El-Melloi II volume 2, page 129/130

"“So something about chasing the Vortex of Radix (alternatively, the Root of the Vortex,
the Root of Akasha, or the Akashic Root), then.”
Bersac’s voice was slightly tinged by anxiety. I see. So he does have a correct
interpretation of magecraft.
The Vortex of Radix.
Yes. Supposedly the goal of every mage. Then again, the phrase “the Vortex of Radix” is
just a convenient name. Putting it as a phrase is wrong in the first place, so sometimes,
it’s just referred to as [ ] (emptiness, 空, kara).
Even the inter-factional wars were based on this. Even if someone was obsessed with
the struggle of power, they would not forget it. Or, you could say that some people would
rather be obsessed with power in order to escape it. It was the ultimate, secluded
dream of all mages.
However, my brother shook his head.
“That has no direct correlation to my request. Though since the Vortex of Radix is the
origin of all things, I can’t deny the possibility of a connection.”" - The Case Files of Lord El-Melloi II volume 6, page 45

"“Us mages always aim for the Root.”
My mentor brought up something that had come up many times before. The Root was
the ultimate goal of all modern mages; an end that must be reached at any cost.
Though no one knew that the Root was, my mentor said that it was the origin of
everything." - The Case Files of Lord El-Melloi II volume 9, page 153

I'm sorry about the terrible formatting. I'm doing this on my phone, and I don't know how to fix it without messing all of the quotes up.

 

[KingNanaya]

I'm sorry about the terrible formatting. I'm doing this on my phone, and I don't know how to fix it without messing all of the quotes up.

don't worry, it's formatted fine.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

don't worry, it's formatted fine.

Thanks, that's good to know.

 

[Tdjwo]

Alright, I'm free for about 1 and a half hr before my next lecture begins. I would try addressing all the major points.

The Greater Grail.

Like I had already explained earlier, the greater grail leading a pathway to the root is something that has only been stated by mages. Now read carefully. The grail works differently depending on the amount of servants sacrificed.
Six dead servants for a wish. The entire wish-granting factor is a bonus side effect used for the sake of advertisement. Seven dead servants for opening a path to the root (a false statement). Now this was the true purpose of the holy grail's creation, to lead access to the zenith of all magical practice, access to Akasha and the knowledge of all things that are, were and ever will be, as well as the source of all souls on the planet. Tokiomi Tohsaka was the only Master of the Fourth Grail War interested in reaching Akasha, so that is why the information Kirei had was significant to Gilgamesh. Every other Master would have been satisfied with 6 dead Servants to make their omnipotent wish, but Tokiomi was the only one who would use his own Servant's soul to open the passage to Akasha. That's why Gilgamesh betrayed him. The lie wasn't that 6 was enough to make the wish; that part's true. The lie was that the passage to Akasha could be opened with a mere wish. Needed one more Servant soul for that to work.

Now, how do I know this? Its simple. It was stated in Fate Zero

Not only is it not powerful to grant anything unlike an actual omnipotent being like the Root, but it's limited to only miracles reasonable within the world. So the notion of the "Greater Grail being a pathway to the Root" was based on a false premise, and the only people who believed it were the 3 great families and Tokiomi( cuz he's stupid). Touko(aka one of the greatest mages of all time) has told us this as well when she said every method created by other mages to reach the root has always turned out to be a disaster or failure at the end. So yeah, that already tackles that point. Moving on...

Well, since Tdjwo is here, could you (or anyone else) explain to me the following statement ?

I honestly don't know where you got your translations from, but from what I have here, it doesn't say "most."

Gotten from the epilogue movie btw

Similarly, on her FGO profile, Shiki is defined like this :

Yet, here's what Arcueid tell us when talking about the Holy Grail/Omnipotent wish granter :

I don't really see why Arcueid comparing Shiki to the holy grail necessarily disqualifies her as being the root. Both the Root and Grail are believed to share the same characteristic of "granting wishes" albeit the true purpose of the root is far more than just that. I can claim the God I worship and some random "god" in a fictional universe share the same characterisitc of being "omnipotent" but does that mean they are the same?
Also, it's clear the grail has limited wish granting ability compared to the Root or compared to what Void Shiki literally claimed she's capable of. The grail is not capable of erasing the entire Nasuverse, is it? Meanwhile, here is what Void Shiki said

Doesn't that mean we are the same being? So I can do anything. ...Yes, I can even rearrange the laws of matter that are so small that they are invisible to the naked eye, or even go back and change the Phylogenetic tree of living things themselves.It's easy to rearrange the order of the world as it is now. Not to remake this world, but to crush the old world with a new world."She says, laughing softly.She twists her mouth as if to despise herself, saying it's ridiculous. "

Just because she shares a few characteristics to the grail doesn't make her necessarily "holy grail level." That sounds ridiculous tbh.

Similarly, here's how she described Void Shiki on her FGO profile :

I don't see how any of the statements contradict anything. Void Shiki is indeed all that is stated.

You're not wrong on why you're presupposing this, you're just doing it in a way that necessarily has a bias toward the upcoming (or not) tier of The Root. By "bias" I don't mean that you're "biased" for the Nasuverse, but moreso that you're already analyzing each statement and/or future inconsistencies/statements/scans... under the guidance of "The Root is already tier 0". But it's not a problem, I'm not even there to argue against it, just bring up a point I'm myself pondering

There's nothing wrong with this. I'm assuming we all agree with the Root being tier 0 and the only isssues here are wether Shiki is the root or not. So if Ultima is basing his decisions on the Root already being tier 0, then that's fine because anything that goes against it would either be considered an outlier or something extremely minor

I think "contradiction" is a pretty big word. I just feel like there are several statements (shown in my post a bit above) that Shiki shares the qualities of the Holy Grail. Same Holy Grail who, after absorbing seven servants, can open a hole to the Root and grant a wish. Both can grant wishes (and more, in the case of Shiki) because they are connected to the Root (by different means, mind you).

Shiki shares a few qualities as the holy grail. that doesn't make her just someone "similar to the holy grail." She's said it herself. She is the root. Or are we gonna claim the Root is the holy grail too?

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

The greater grail doesn't really blow a hole through the root nor to the root directly iirc, it only creates a path way to reach the root and even then it's only regarded as the first step, because the pathway to it would still be far. It wouldn't even scale to it considering it's incapable of doing what's impossible as well, while the root is capable of making what's impossible possible and can record and create "anything".

This is further supported by Aoko stating that nobody ever touches the Swirl of the root, because touching it simply means returning back to it since it absorbs your soul. What we know is that mages only get closer to it and that's about it. But returning to nothingness, is taken to be the equivalent of reaching enlightenment. Which for a human would be being completed and as such all meaning of life disappears for them (which is why the counter force is against that).

Void Shiki doesn't manipulate the root as well; it has never been stated and it's more of an issue with how the connection she has to the root was initially interpreted.

 

[Deagonx]

There's a few reasons why I think the Root pretty clearly isn't a Monad. I've brought them up before, and I've found the explanations provided to bring them into harmony with Monism unpersuasive. For instance, the Akashic Records are described as being "given metaphysical being by the combined consensus of all humanity."

Another problematic instance is Ritsuka straight up going to the root and meeting it, and the root being surprised to see him there and saying he wasn't supposed to be there, so someone must've made a mistake.

???	Oh my. For a guest to arrive here... Is this some kind of mistake?
???	If you're dreaming, go back to where you came from.
???	This is a place without boundaries. You have a name, so you shouldn't be here.
Choices	Well, I woke up here... I didn't come here because I wanted to...
???	You didn't want to be here? In that case... Hehe, sorry.
???	Looks like our connection was made from this side. Let me apologize while I can, Fujimaru.
???	I'm asleep and thus unaware of what's going on outside. But I can take a guess.
???	I'm sure it's just another hack-and-slash type of case without a hint of romance.
???	What a disaster, busy Master. But it's a good thing to have things you can do, things you must do.
???	...Yes, rather than talk about myself, I would love to talk more about your future, but...
???	Too bad, the night is almost over. Seems like this dream is about to end.
???	If we meet again, could you please call me by my name?

It's also an issue that Shiki is described as floating within the root and described as a "part" of it. In addition to wielding the power of the root through True Magic. It shouldn't be able to be wielded as a power source.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

It's also an issue that Shiki is described as floating within the root and described as a "part" of it. In addition to wielding the power of the root through True Magic. It shouldn't be able to be wielded as a power source.

Shiki "floating" within the Root doesn't seem to be a problem, given the scans stating that "to make contact" with the Root, properly speaking, is not possible because to do that is to return to the nothingness you are emanated from. Given that, it doesn't seem like the Root is being treated as a literal place at all (Especially given the OP noting they almost always put that word in quotations when using it). Shiki being described as "a part" of the Root is fine, as well, given that this is immediately followed by "And the part and the whole of a nothingness are the same, wouldn't you say?

The power source thing is pretty innocuous-sounding. Would need to actually look at to see if there's an actual problem.

Another problematic instance is Ritsuka straight up going to the root and meeting it, and the root being surprised to see him there and saying he wasn't supposed to be there, so someone must've made a mistake.

That's a little suspicious. But I'll let the supporters address it. I've been shown some things suggesting the contrary (That Shiki as the Root really is omniscient, that is), so, 50/50.

There's a few reasons why I think the Root pretty clearly isn't a Monad. I've brought them up before, and I've found the explanations provided to bring them into harmony with Monism unpersuasive. For instance, the Akashic Records are described as being "given metaphysical being by the combined consensus of all humanity."

Yeah that has to be explained pronto.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

There's a few reasons why I think the Root pretty clearly isn't a Monad. I've brought them up before, and I've found the explanations provided to bring them into harmony with Monism unpersuasive. For instance, the Akashic Records are described as being "given metaphysical being by the combined consensus of all humanity."

This translation comes from Cokesakto, they are notorious for being bad... Wouldn't be interested in a back and forth because this is already getting disingenuous, everyone knows the Swirl of the root predates the collective unconscious because it creates the beings who establish the collective unconscious to begin with, it's called "The Absolute" on several different occasions; heck the records are said to be the source of everything in the materials, it's not just a mere statement from a character.

Another problematic instance is Ritsuka straight up going to the root and meeting it, and the root being surprised to see him there and saying he wasn't supposed to be there, so someone must've made a mistake.

Meeting? The root? And the root being surprised? You mean when he was dreaming being there and Saber Shiki who was dreaming being there as well talking about how he shouldn't be there? Which part implies the Swirl of the root talking and being surprised?

It's also an issue that Shiki is described as floating within the root

She says she was floating, but corrects herself by saying "maybe it wasn't falling in the first place because there's nothing here", she continues and says "my body is sinking in a world where even the description is meaningless". It's just her trying to grasp the Swirl of the root and trying to apply predicates to it which are then acknowledged to be inaccurate.

in addition to wielding the power of the root through True Magic.

I promise you; you can never find a statement referring to true magic as "power of the root", assuming it is it can be the power of the root Insofar as it deriving from the root, since the Swirl of the root doesn't use Ex Nihilo to create everything rather everything flows from it or emanates from it; whatever comes from it just as true magic does would be inferior to it as emanationists would have it.

The number 1 must exist for number 2 to exist, which must exist for number 3 to exist, and so on all the way to infinity. Infinity is traced back to 1 in the end and is contingent upon it as its foundation. Furthermore, the infinity observed in space-time (infinite size) has boundaries still in a sense. Sure, it has no physical boundaries, but it has limits still. It is not all-encompassing or capable of existing on its own. It relies on the abstract fundamental concepts that govern space-time to exist. So even the infinity of space-time has boundaries in a sense, just not physical boundaries. If something truly has NO boundaries at ALL, it isn't infinity, but 「The One」.


The One isn't infinity. It is boundlessness. It is not contingent on anything. It is self-referencing. It's the Unactualized Actualizer upon which all things flow from and are contingent upon. It is the absolute One that two, three, four, and so on stem from and are contingent upon, and thus The One can be said to have Empty Boundaries, or is Empty Boundaries itself. And that's why the name of the series is Empty Boundaries (Kara no Kyoukai):


Infinity is not “ ”. In order to render infinity, one must define limits. Without limits, infinity does not exist. Infinity can be observed because objects possess limits. Ryougi Shiki was immersed in infinity, but found the non-existent limit and severed it. Of course, limits do not exist within infinity, thus one cannot sever something that does not exist. As a result, escaping from this prison is impossible. However -- - without limits, infinity does not exist. Regardless if a finite wall existed, an limitless world is meaningless before Ryougi Shiki. If there is no limit, then it is not infinity, but “ ”. If limits exist, then Ryougi would find it and cut away everything.…. What is supposed to be an absolute black hole, to an opponent such as Ryougi Shiki is merely a confined dark cell. The magus felt ashamed of himself. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

which was the point here and is why the Mystic Eyes can kill all things.