At Least Universal DMC and more.....

[DarkGrath]

MEshifuari, like I said, it's already been long discussed why the tweet he made regarding universe level Mundus is not at all comparable to the troll tweets he's made. This should be pretty clear by now.

Imo, it's less on whether he's serious or not and more so the principle of not letting random statements on Twitter being the primary basis for an upgrade. If there was a good amount pointing to it being universe sized and that was the icing on the cake, that would be a different story. But from what I can tell, it's not.

You say "random statements on Twitter" without acknowledging that those "random statements" were made by the creator of the game. And he didn't say it once, he said it and proceeded to direct other people to the question later. It's a pretty blatant WoG feat. Also, in game, there isn't anything to suggest that the dimension is not universe sized. We have a dimension of an undefined size, that the creator of the game was asked about and clarified multiple times that it was a universe. Caliing it "random statements on Twitter" is, to put it bluntly, false. It is a WoG feat, the only part that has to be debated here was whether Kamiya was trolling or not, and plenty of evidence has already been provided to say that this was not a troll tweet.

 

[Dienomite22]

@The real cal howard

There is actually a good amount pointing to it being universe sized though or at least 4-c.

Sparda (the sword, 1/3 of Sparda's full power) powering Fortuna HQ and the Savior.Both contain dice games with the Savior having 4 of these games.Each dice game recreates the Earth,moon and Sun (at the minimum) and the dimesion that the dice games create are seperate from each other and the main world and contains their own time which is shown by each having different day and night cycles.

CORRECTION:First dice game isn't powered by Sparda,is in the Containment Room NOT Fortuna HQ, and doesn't force a bossfight or take you to a different dimension (at least on human difficulty) unlike mission 19's dice game which is inside the Savior thus making it powered by Sparda and does forces you into these dimensions created by the game or with Sparda's power.

 

[Toshiohex]

Also, in regards to what Follow Doctor Freeman said (Don't worry bro, this is no form of offense/attacking towards you at all, I'm still overall generous and happy with everyone's contributions)

"And don't even bother with revisions relating to something this controversial and complicated until you've polished your writing and presentation skills to at least a high school level. I don't mean to sound mean or hurt feelings, but you're never gonna get anywhere unless you take all this into consideration"


To anyone wanting to make revisions, do not be afraid to tackle any verse you are interested in. Aspects such as spelling, grammar and style of course may be a factor for some that take it into consideration, but most of all, please do not feel discouraged or intimidatied in any way, shape or form if you really want to do something here. Scaring/chasing away new people here isn't the point.


And once again Freeman, this is no attack on you, I'm just adding to your comment just incase someone took it the wrong way.

 

[Dienomite22]

@The real cal howard
There is actually a good amount pointing to it being universe sized though or at least 4-c.

Sparda (the sword, 1/3 of Sparda's full power) powering Fortuna HQ and the Savior.Both contain dice games with the Savior having 4 of these games.Each dice game recreates the Earth,moon and Sun (at the minimum) and the dimesion that the dice games create are seperate from each other and the main world and contains their own time which is shown by each having different day and night cycles.

CORRECTION:First dice game isn't powered by Sparda,is in the Containment Room NOT Fortuna HQ, and doesn't force a bossfight or take you to a different dimension (at least on human difficulty) unlike mission 19's dice game which is inside the Savior thus making it powered by Sparda and does forces you into these dimensions created by the dice game with Sparda's power.

 

[Antvasima]

If possible, I would like to receive a catch-all post summarizing every single feat or statement which the people on this thread believe backs up Universal DMC, preferrably with quotes and scans.

Matthew is the one who has to approve any upgrades, so if you want anything to happen here, I would suggest that you accommodate him, and structure it in a concise easily understood manner. The staff do not have limitless time and energy available.

In addition, as Cal said, we have regulations against solely upgrading based on Twitter statement and similar brief responses.

 

[AstralKing7]

I thought other staff members could approve of upgrades???

 

[Sparda_20000000]

Dante and mundus's fight did cause the underworld to be unstable could that be used

 

[ABoogieYesSir]

Well Matt is the one who downgraded DMC characters to universe level to multi-continent level.

 

[Twellas]

Dante and mundus's fight did cause the underworld to be unstable could that be used

when did this happen? Got scans\screenshots?

 

[Antvasima]

I prefer if Matthew evaluates this first, since he is well-informed about the context, and in order to avoid conflicts between the staff members.

 

[Twellas]

So basically, is Follow Doctor Freeman gonna be the one to organize and write the "catch-all" post Matthew is asking for?

 

[Kepekley23]

when did this happen? Got scans\screenshots?

It's a misinterpretation of the narration's description of the fight between Void Mundus and Dante in the novels.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

If possible, I would like to receive a catch-all post summarizing every single feat or statement which the people on this thread believe backs up Universal DMC, preferrably with quotes and scans.

Nobody replied to this. This thread is disorganized and hard for me to properly evaluate the feats.

 

[Sparda_20000000]

No I'm talking about the boss fights in dmc 1 the guide book did mentioned it

 

[Dienomite22]

@Kepekley23

I think he's talking about this

 

[Dienomite22]

@Matthew Schroeder

I would do it but I'm not confident in my ability to properly explain things tbqh

 

[Twellas]

If possible, I would like to receive a catch-all post summarizing every single feat or statement which the people on this thread believe backs up Universal DMC, preferrably with quotes and scans.

Nobody replied to this. This thread is disorganized and hard for me to properly evaluate the feats.

I think Follow Doctor Freeman is the one who wants to do it, and i honestly agree because he seems like someone who knows his stuff, this could very well be the last thread about "universal DMC" if he writes the catch-all post. I say we wait for him so this topic can be dealt with once and for all

 

[NeoTengus]

Alright so, I read through the Volume 2 Novel to see what this 2-C hype about Beastheads was about and I feel lied to.
There is nothing remotely '2-C' about the beastheads. I encourage everyone who is on the fence about 3-A+ DMC to read the Volume 2 novel from here: https://originaldmc.github.io/DivinityStatue/Downloads.html
Its a very short read and will clear up confusion and will show that 3-A and up is, thus far, complete and utter, wank.


Let me summarize.
-The Beastheads didn't create time-space, at all, and at best 'represent' it. This is little more than a title. They can give illusions of the past and future and can transport you to alternate timelines. This is a hax ability. and represents absolutely nothing regarding their AP, and hurting/defeating them represents nothing for the opponent's AP either. Proof of this is that Beryl's rifle did immense damage to the beastheads, and how powerful was Beryl's rifle? It was literally described as being designed as an anti-tank rifle in the very beginning:
"Beryl fired off five shots in quick succession. The rifle had been designed to bring down tanks. Its ordnance could punch through steel plates" (pg 31)


Yet it did huge damage to the beastheads:
"Beryl grabbed the anti-tank rifle from her back. Its reassuring weight boosted her confidence further. "Dante! You won't get anywhere with those peashooters!" Dante swung low to the ground, giving Beryl a clear shot at their adversary. She squeezed off five rounds at the creature. The missiles punched deep into the Beastheads' flesh. The demon unleashed a roar that drowned out the returning thunder. The whipping wind regained its mournful whistle as the Beastheads' localized hold on nature relaxed." (pg 88-89)


Dante also acknowledged the beastheads as somewhat of a challenge in their first fight, despite also saying later that he is stronger now than he was before when he fought Mundus. In this initial appearance the Beastheads may have been weaker than Mundus, but if they scale by even 1% to him, its a huge knock on Mundus' capabilities abilities.


Furthermore, it was said that Beryl's dad took possession of the beastheads to try to find way to bring his dead wife; Beryl's mother, back to life. But it explicitly said the beastheads didn't have the ability to do that. So even with this supposed 'control' over time they can't even actively change the past, at all.


The Beastheads do not exist beyond time or space or anything like that, hell there are even multiple Beastheads, one for each timeline apparently since the alternate timeline where they dumped Dante and Beryl to had its own Beastheads in that world as well.


And before someone tries to say "Oh her bullets are magical", actually, only some of them are, and she doesn't start to use her magical bullets until near the very end when she took out some ghost knights. Prior to that, her bullets weren't harming the ghosts knights near the beginning of the book. So yeah, she was using regular anti-tank rounds against the Beastheads in the first fight in the middle of the book, and they were doing damage. Also, we know she only used her magic bullets for the first time against the Ghost Knights at the end because Dante flinched when she used them, they passively drained some magic from his body just from him being near them. And yet Dante was in the vicinity of the normal bullets all throughout the book throughout and made no comment. Even when Dante and Beryl were fighting the Beastheads near the sea cliff in the middle of the book and she was showering the thing with bullets and Dante was up close slashing it, he did not feel any ambient anti-magic energy from her bullets then. Dante was super-surprised when Beryl pulled out her magic bullets near the end and was wondering why she never brought them up prior to that.


Beryl only used one magical bullet against the Beastheads, and that wasn't until the final fight when Chen absorbed the power of the Beastheads, and it practically one-shotted him.
So yeah, 100% confirmed that the Beastheads were being hurt by literal, mere Anti-tank rounds in the first seaside cliff fight. The only time a magic bullet was used against the Beastheads was in the final fight near the end when Chen absorbed them, and even then it only took one to do it in, with Dante making the final blow right after it got shot by it.


If anyone has played Toukiden 1 or 2 on the Vita or PS4, you would know that the Demons/Oni in that game are similar, they took have great time distorting powers. Such that they can even bring the different parts of time together, such as bringing past eras into the future. And yet its not treated as AP, its a hax ability of theirs, their actual AP is far more modest with stronger Oni being only town level and up, being said to be capable of one shotting villages and creating storms and such. The Beastheads are the same.


There is nothing 2-C here. At all.


This claim was seriously worse than when some Bleach guys tried to wank Aizen to universal for destroying the cleaner in Dangai. This was really, really bad for whoever made this argument.

More things of interest:


-Alternate versions of Shadow, Phantom, Blade, Frost, and Griffon all transformed into their demon forms in this twisted Earth but were afraid to do so because magic on the Earth was less than that of the underworld. They are weaker here and have less energy. Confirmed. So yeah, Demons are stronger are in the Underworld. It also explicitly said when they accompanyied Dante to the Underworld to combat this alternate Mundus that their powers were restored by the underworld. So yeah, explicit confirmation that Demons are stronger in the Underworld because of the ambient magic there. This further massively damages the 3-A Mundus hype. He didn't do this shit in neutral territory, and judging by how unimpressive Abigail was on Earth, he can't. Likewise this direct relationship with magic and power exists for Dante as well, as later in the book the magic in his body coming from his demonic bloodline started being drained away, and he started losing his superhuman stats because of it.


So yeah, both Dante and Mundus were massively amped during their first fight in the Underworld and during their Void fight. The magic was so strong in that void place that Griffon and Blade couldn't enter because they would be overloaded from the magic.


-Now regarding the claim of Void Mundus battle. There was zero scale to it sadly. Also, regarding the supposed quote of Mundus being the sole ruler of creation? In context that quote looks far less impressive: "Attacking Mundus in his own keep had proven a masterstroke. The creature could scarcely comprehend the assault. His supremacy was supposed to be absolute; the sole ruler of creation for timeless eternity. Yet here was an arrogant trespasser-human no less-who had power equal to his own." (pg 145)


Sorry, but that doesn't look like a flat, matter of fact statement. That looks more like a slightly mocking statement of how Void Mundus sees *himself*. Afterall he said his supremacy was supposed to be absolute, yet that was clearly proven false. And likewise, it doesn't credit him for creation, at all. Just that he was meant to *RULE* over creation for an eternity. Unfortunately Dante cut his plans for eternity short. Sorry, but until it says he actually birthed all of creation, this is all puffed up language being misinterpreted.


-Literally just before he fought Void Mundus, he fought Alternate Trish, in a fight he was actually losing until he started mixing up Ebony and Ivory with his swordplay. Before that when it was just him with Rebellion and her with Alastor, she was winning the swordplay. And their clashes were described as 'hurricane gales', but even that was in a tongue in cheek kind of way if you read the context:
"The battle was epic enough to be described in language Trish would normally use. She would probably say the ground shook beneath their feet. Their blades clashed with peals of thunder and hurricane gales. She might even describe their massive swords in pornographic detail." (pg 131)


-When Chen had absorbed the power of the Beastheads in the final fight, he was stated to become equal to Sparda himself and was even wielding an imitation sword. And yet his fight did little more than damage the office building they were in (very much like how Dante's fight with Abigail didn't even destroy the skyscraper they were fighting on) , and yet Dante was still pushed to his absolute limit in this fight. This fight was way tougher for Dante than the Void Mundus fight from earlier in the book, and I'm supposed to be believe 3-A or even 2-C exists? Sorry. Not happening.


Tier 6 DMC remains unless some drastic new information comes out.
I'm not opposed to upgrades, but I am opposed to dishonest or weakly grounded information used to scale.


In the mean time I will pour through the Volume 1 novel and all the art gallergy info from DMC5 to see if I can find anything.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Who said the Beastheads were 2-C? What?

 

[Twellas]

Were 2-C Beastheads ever even mentioned? I personally have NEVER, NEVER heard anyone say anything even remotely close to this

 

[Dienomite22]

@NeoTengus

We've already had discussions about the novels and the Beastheads and we already know 3-A and 2-C feats being in them is made up.Read the other DMC threads, that will save you time instead of writing all that.

 

[Twellas]

Half of the points you debunked were never even remotely suggested, nobody even brought up the Beastheads AT ALL from what i can tell

 

[Toshiohex]

Hi there NeoTengus


Allow me to explain the points you made:


- About Dante flying to another planet, I removed it a while ago because I do agree that was invalid.


- Mundus realm is a illusion

I like your observation, however, the reason why the illusion was casted with Urizen was because it was part of his his personal memory. Also, the illusion arena wasn't as large as Mundus realm, with no glass shattering effects as well.

As for Dante creating "air-waves" in space when he jumped, this could be explained by Dante gathering/disbursing aura before using devil trigger.

- Besides the villains not physically displaying the feats, keep in mind that they all had different intentions. We clearly see that Vergil in DMC 5 wanted to settle a person score with Dante one in one. Also, Vergil took the fruit near the end of the game and we even here him state "Get strong Dante, heal your wounds" and was even seen waiting for Dante before the final battle. So with that said, showing universal feats would be out of the question, however, it doesn't mean he can't.


- Correct me if I'm wrong please (Not accusing of downplaying or bias, these are just questions waiting for clarification) but I recall that in viewtiful Joe, Joe was rated as galaxy level lore wise, however, he was unable to destroy a single planet in his giant mech. Same goes for darkstalkers, only one planet level + feat was shown by one person, yet everyone scaled to him.


As for Asura's wrath, I do agree that it's feats are displayed more flamboyant, however, that seemed like just cyberconnect2's own doing because no other capcom games display power like they do so far.

Thanks once again for sharing your thoughts.

 

[Ogbunabali]

There was no "burst of air" when he jumped.

 

[NeoTengus]

Twellas wrote:
Half of the points you debunked were never even remotely suggested, nobody even brought up the Beastheads AT ALL from what i can tell


No, there was a fellow in the other thread by Cin https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2774546 , that was trying to argue 2-C Beastheads. Maxnumb231 was his name. And instead of actually debunking his claims Darkgrath just sort of said it would be considered an outlier.

I was just making sure that absolutely no one is misinformed. It's not an outlier, it simply does not exist in the first place.

There is absolutely nothing 2-C about the Beastheads. At all. Nor is there anything 2-C or even 3-A in the Volume 2 novel.

 

[Ogbunabali]

You mean that who guy everyone told him he was wrong?

 

[Twellas]

personally, i don't think universal DMC is ever gonna happen, there would be a waaayyy stronger case for planetary\star DMC, there are planetary and star level feats that are way more consistent and require little to no mental gymnastics

 

[Dienomite22]

@NeoTengus

He was corrected multiple times already as was everyone else who brought up 2-C or 3-A novel feats as well.

 

[NeoTengus]

You mean that who guy everyone told him he was wrong?

The Beastheads was one of the initial claims of scaling for 3-A Mundus by not just him, but others as well. Not just here, but many places in Discord or youtube for example, so no it wasn't for him solely.

I was just making sure to give a thorough debunk of the Beastheads in case anyone was still thinking they were an argument for universal+ scaling.

They aren't. Other avenues must be found.

And I was just pointing out that it was kind of concerning how DarkGrath, who is considered an expert on this matter, didn't actually correct him. He simply kinda threw up his hands and said it would be an outlier, implying that he would like for it to be considered valid but doesn't think it would be approved. As opposed to actually debunking the claim, which I did.

 

[Ogbunabali]

This is vsbattles, not Discord, not Youtube and not anything else. And no one here made that claim except one guy that was corrected by everyone.

And just so you don't go into another rant, the only 3-A feat being discussed is the Mundus creation feat.

The other feats that have been mentioned as potential supporting feats are the dice games in DMC 4, the Mirror World and Nightmare from DMC1.

 

[Twellas]

Again, why don't we just drop universal DMC (because we all know it's never gonna happen) and just focus on planetary\star DMC? It would be a breath of fresh air and would have a lot more evidence backing it up

 

[NeoTengus]

Not really, they all just sort of handwaved him off. As I said, Darkgrath himself didn't even correct the guy. He just tried to put him down easy and say it would never be approved.

 

[AstralKing7]

Again, why don't we just drop universal DMC (because we all know it's never gonna happen) and just focus on planetary\star DMC? It would be a breath of fresh air and would have a lot more evidence backing it up

this thread is for universal DMC and id life for it to continue until staff has come to a conclusion

 

[DarkGrath]

My apologies if my comments on the matter have been causing controversy. If it would be helpful for the sake of this thread, when I have the time I'll write up a summary for Matthew to read.

 

[Twellas]

Again, why don't we just drop universal DMC (because we all know it's never gonna happen) and just focus on planetary\star DMC? It would be a breath of fresh air and would have a lot more evidence backing it up

this thread is for universal DMC and id life for it to continue until staff has come to a conclusion

Yeah sure, i'm not saying we should discuss it here, just planting a seed, so to speak.

 

[Toshiohex]

Also, so that we don't lose ourselves, let's all remember that this is not about "this person versus this other person". Communities are supportive and give constructive criticism because we look out for one another here in order to grow.

Instead of thinking "I'm gonna make whomever look dumb while I look smart debunking them", since we are a community, counter arguments should be made as a form of correction or to inform a fellow member until both people are respectfully satisfied.

There is no need for trying to intimidate other members into submission, look down on them for comments that can be respectfully corrected or take up a careless, stern attitude just to sound more compelling.

Remember, we are all still human beings behind this computer and we all have feelings. These are fictional characters that aren't even our own, so with that said, nobody should harm anyone verbally.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Toshiohex, you're awesome, you know that?

 

[NeoTengus]

I vaguely remember the Dice Puzzle in DMC4.

I'm going to look at it again but what was the evidence supposed to be for that so I know what to look out for?

 

[Toshiohex]

The Wright Way,

Thank you, you're awesome too. XD

 

[Dienomite22]

@The real cal howard
There is actually a good amount pointing to it being universe sized though or at least 4-c.

Sparda (the sword, 1/3 of Sparda's full power) powering Fortuna HQ and the Savior.Both contain dice games with the Savior having 4 of these games.Each dice game recreates the Earth,moon and Sun (at the minimum) and the dimesion that the dice games create are seperate from each other and the main world and contains their own time which is shown by each having different day and night cycles.

CORRECTION:First dice game isn't powered by Sparda,is in the Containment Room NOT Fortuna HQ, and doesn't force a bossfight or take you to a different dimension (at least on human difficulty) unlike mission 19's dice game which is inside the Savior thus making it powered by Sparda and does forces you into these dimensions created by the game or with Sparda's power.

@NeoTengus

As Toshiohex said this shouldn't be a person vs person thing so I want to try to be better and just give you info as accurately as possible without getting upset or annoyed.I apologize If I came off that way