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Greetings everyone and thank you for your time. Yes, I am aware that this has been discussed multiple times and I am aware of what staff are put through. Here are some notes before reading:

-Some of what is discussed may have been discussed before from other threads on this wiki. There are also some wording I am using from discord (my own wording) in a DMC discussion with another user on this wiki.

-Also, I am having fun here, when you read, don't think of me as a jerk, rude, aggressive or angry. I am really generous and want for this to be as friendly as this could be.

- I understand that my credibility will come into question for being a new member of this site (especially the fact that I have made poorly written discussions here). However, none of those discussions included a topic I was deeply interested in like I am with the Devil May Cry Series.

So my judgement may have seemed cloudy or ignorant on other posts. I also would like to add that not much effort was put into the other threads like this because just as I described before, they didn't not peak my interest as much.

- Big thanks to Aogirikira and DarkGrath for giving me a hand with this thread! This also goes for all the rest of the staff for being so kind and giving me a chance to make this.

- Some parts are edited out for convenience and consistency.

Anyway, here it goes.


The Devil May Cry manga has described the demon world as "endless" and we are even given a artist portrayal of the human world drawn smaller in scale to the demon world. In fact, even the wording describes the human world as a "stroke of light" to paint a better description of the size comparison. So now we have something being called "endless" compared to something called "a stroke of light".

Manga panels here: http://********.me/manga/devil_may_cry/v01/c001/4.html


In the ending of DMC 4 Special Edition, we see that there is a sky full of stars. This shows that the human world is indeed a full universe. Infinite? Not exactly sure, but it is almost certain without a doubt that the human world is a universe. So with that mentioned, let's refer back to the statements about the size of the worlds. The human world compared to the demon world, is mentioned as a stroke of light and is also once again, drawn to fit the statement.

Given the size of the human world (possibly 3-A), the demon world is supposed to be infinitely bigger, or to be as safe as possible, MUCH larger than the human world, which could possibly make it many times bigger or a "at least" finite universal structure since we are going off of the human worlds structure and how they are drawn in comparison. But let's let the evidence speak for itself below:
Scene here: https://youtu.be/IR7BYtOAxOY


Looking for consistency

- Demon world being called "endless". The manga panels where drawn mostly in black ink and even in one page, covered in all black to show how endless or large the demon world is in comparison.

- The author did not refer to the human world as endless, just the demon world, so it shows the author is clear on size comparison, this is even supported by (once again was listed above) how it was drawn. So this can mean that being called endless was likely literal.

- The universes have their own separate space-time if you look at how the figures are drawn on this manga panel (same panel as before but I'm showing it again for convenience). ( http://********.me/manga/devil_may_cry/v01/c001/5.html ) Both figures are going their own opposite directions, which possibly shows that time flows differently in each realm.

- Mission 18 in devil may cry 3 is the demon world. In that level, you are teleported to alternate versions of earth to fight repeated bosses. The fact that the demon world can hold alternate versions of earth shows it's massive size and different time that flows through it. Keep in mind, earth is a full universe, so for the demon realm (one of the many demon worlds) to contain these, shows that it is at least universal.

I know some may say that it is just time BFR or just BFR to rooms, that would be false because:

-The level has a clear redesign. (No time BFR)

- in one of the boss stages (hell vanguard) a full sky is shown, which is comparable to mission 2 and shows that a full world is present, not just boss rooms.

- the present is not affected, nor was there two Dantes there.

So that would be wrong. This shows that each one of those bosses where in parallel/remodeled universes. There were about 8 bosses shown, which in this case is actually 8 parallel universes present all at once.

Mission 18 link here: (skip to 15:01 and if you want, which the video at least to the part where you can see how Dante enters the parallel worlds.)

- Also, DMC 3 ending boss was in a demon world, DMC 2 has shown multiple demon realms, DMC 3 has shown demon realms and they all have different designs. Though it is unknown what size these worlds are, Mission 18 DMC 3 gives a good clue that one demon world can be very large.

- Kamiya's quote and Mundus

The creator of the series gave a straightforward justification that Mundus has created a universe. So if you take that quote and apply it to the evidence above, this means that mundus should be at least universal or higher for merging two universes since he has shown a casual universal feat as a demonstration. Some say that Kamiya was just trolling, but:

1) He answered with a clarification to another question asked.

2) He has been bothered numerous times about DMC topics, so his attitude would be different. Just like what I noticed about some staff here (I don't mean this in a harsh way at all), they may sometimes respond aggressively or with agitation simply because they are constantly bothered by the same topics and that's fine. It would be wrong for me to discredit you all on reliability just for having a human response towards a obvious or possibly nerve wracking situation.

3) How is clarifying an answer "trolling"? Especially if it clears up or fits the demonstration of the feat that was performed?


1) Why would Mundus create a whole universe just to fight Dante? That makes no sense.

It actually makes perfect sense, remember in the manga, Sparda has driven Mundus out and the "light" (human world) has a protector now (which was Sparda). There is a reason why Dante had to be lured to the island with Trish. He can't invade the human world by himself knowing the type of resistance that it has and the fact that he has restricted access by sparda. So when facing Dante, Mundus brings him to his own domain. If you want, this can be interpreted as Mundus making a power move as well (trying to intimidate).

2. Universal Feats aren't shown often, therefore it's a outlier.

Actually, the reason why only Mundus and sparda has shown these feats is because they had legit reasons to. Mundus is reffed to as a king and a ruler of the underworld, that means what he does should be of greater significance than the rest of the demons.

Beowulf should also be comparable to sparda for facing him, but that doesn't necessarily mean that DMC 3 Dante is universal. Beowulf was beaten, had his eye gouged out and sealed, so his power is lowered. Originally, he should be universal, and I know this can be overlooked, but there is still such thing as being high end and low end universe level.
Other bosses like Sactus that has used Sparda power has not shown universal feats because it was mainly contained in a blade and he just fresh got the ability, he wouldn't have complete knowledge on how to use it.

Argosax simply had no need to destroy the demon or human universes because his opponent (Dante), is right in front of him.

-Anyway, to go in further detail and to explain my claim, here is a video link where Dante and Vergil state that Arkhem can hardly control Sparda's power:

https://youtu.be/8tsNZkAdBko (skip to 2:30 to 3:15)

- And as another side note, besides sactus being a novice, he only wanted to create order and be worshiped. So he would have no interest in destroying universes. Here is the game cutscene where you can look at the context for yourselves if you like:

https://youtu.be/87aWR10MsYw (from the beginning to 2:45)

3. How is universe level consistent with the story?

This is kind of like question 2 but answered in simple steps:

- KING of the underworld, wants to cover the human world with the endless dark demon universe. Mundus is a king, Kings have a different priority then everyone else. Being called a king is direct dictionary terminology, there is no twist to it unless the story explains, which wasn't at any point. So there fore, since Mundus is a king, his actions will speak the loudest and will be the broadest.

- Sactus and Arkhem are novice and has shown no interest of doing so.

- (DMC 5 Spoilers) (DMC 5 Spoilers) (DMC 5 Spoilers) Below !!!!!

Why don't Urizen destroy the universe? Simple, Urizen (Vergil) wants absolute power and has even shown that he just wanted to rule (makes himself a throne, sits like a king). This implies no intention of destroying a entire universe, he has only shown an attempt to make human and demon world bend to his will and is still not overcame his past. That would actually be out of character for him to be so destructive. Also, it's been a month or two since he has consumed the qlipoth fruit, he would have destroyed everything if he wanted to.

Also, Attack potency and area effected aren't always shown working together. Sometimes it's either one or the other.

4. Mundus did not merge both the two universes and the writing was supposed to be poetic.

Yes, I agree, maybe "merge" wasn't the best wording, I would like to use the word "cover". Mundus did indeed try to cover the human realm or close the "gap" you see there in the manga panel rather than just him sending demon armies. The manga states the darkness as a world rather than individual beings, same goes for the light referring to the human world and not just humans. If it was referring to individual beings, then I would agree that mundus did not fuse both worlds.

Also, the manga specifically states that demons are reliant on him. Ever since Mundus death, DMC 2, 4 and 5 has been with people messing with hell gates and portals to the demon world rather than demons doing so with Mundus permission.
As you can see, it's taken literal and isn't metaphorical talk (though I can understand how it can be misleading). Mundus was there physically covering all of existence, this is backed up by has universal feats, Artist representation and can appear as part of skies in the demon world. It's a part of him in a way and it is likely he is one with the realm considering he has a physical appearance only when sealed in a stature.

And according to Darkgrath's research (if you want to know in detail, then I kindly suggest to notify him for more about it) Mundus is referred to as "world", and DarkGrath research shows that this can be taken literally. So the fact that mundus is referred to as a living world, shows that he has found some way to use the demon realm (or his own realm) to physically cover the human realm and close the gap between the universes.

5. Even if Mundus did create a universe, it doesn't scale to AP.

I do agree that some characters can be physically weaker than their creation feats, but in Mundus case, it should scale to has attack potency because his universe is dependent on him. After he died, him and his universe has faded away.

6. Mundus Universe, how large is it? Does it have its own space-time?

Well, here are some details to explain:

- Mundus universe may have just looked like a collection of stars, but there is more. Keep in mind that before DMC 3, Mundus is sealed, so the universe that he has created is within those boundaries. In the ending of DMC 3, we see Vergil dashing towards Mundus to face him. This HEAVILY implies that that demon world where the Dante and Vergil stand off takes place, is part of mundus universe (since he can only be there).

- In Mundus universe, notice how there is asteroids and a possible gas giant in there. Gas giants are made up of storms and clouds just as the game shows it. The asteroid is there in the final stage of the battle where Dante and mundus land ( with the volcano pit). If there are asteroids and gas giants, this implies that a order of events had to occur.

Gas giants show indications of previous star formation and asteroids show that planetary collision occurs. All of these are linked to how our universe is formed. These events also take yearly process for it all to fall into place, or in more simple terms, time. The birth of time is highly possible in this scenario, but for time to work so well in playing a part of universal creation, it must be paired with space, in which mundus could have created.
Yes, I am also aware that two parallel universes can share the same time-space, thus not making it necessarily a low 2-C feat, but Mundus would be definitely demonstrating high 3-A stats by this.

So feel free to let me know your thoughts in the comment section below, thank you all once again for your time.
Don't quote huge walls of text, it makes the thread harder to read. Anyways, I don't know DMC well enough to comment on this, I'm just gonna wait and see where this goes.
Okay, I'm I supposed to chop up the paragraphs more or do I post some now and then post later? It's my first time writing something this big so I wasn't sure.
If you're trying to draw more attention to this, than just write "bump". People can already see your paragraph in the OP, so posting it again in the comments is just redundant.
The Wright way,

Yeah, I accidentally posted it again. I thought I deleted it, is it still there?
The Wright Way,

Okay, thanks.

WeeklyBattles and HellBeast1,

Hopefully this turns out well, I'm actually interested in the responses I'll get.

No prob bro, thanks for your concerns btw. I should be find, these are only fictional characters we are talking about, how bad can it be right?
The OP is very polite and doesn't wish to cause any harm, so I think we can keep this civil.

@Toshio Do you wish for me to bring up previous DMC Downgrade threads?
This seems solid, but I'm not a Knowledgeable Member and I didn't played the games except for the 2 and 3 so my opinion doesn't hold weight.
Schnee One,

Those links were very helpful, I'll will edit my post and answer the statements/questions there, thank you.
Hey Matthew Schroeder, Thanks for the kind words.

And that's fine bro, anytime that you're ready, personal life always comes first. Besides, I think I need some rest myself.
Dragon you know I'm not the best person to ask about this

I'll remain neutral for the time being. Some points seem rather shaky, but I can see where OP is coming from with the other ones.
Massive kudos for the OP for being one of the most polite and reasonable op's I've ever seen. I wish more could be like that.
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