At Least Universal DMC and more.....

[DarkGrath]

Toshiohex, you're an awesome dude.

 

[DarkGrath]

I'm pretty much free now. I'll get to writing the summary of this thread for Matthew ASAP.

 

[DarkGrath]

I've written up a summary for Matthew and put it on his wall. Let's wait for his response.

 

[Twellas]

Any news?

 

[DarkGrath]

Ogbunabali has helped me write the summary, with multiple scans and feats mentioned. Now we wait for what Matthew has to say.

 

[Brunout]

Wans't this already debunked some time ago?

 

[Twellas]

Ogbunabali has helped me write the summary, with multiple scans and feats mentioned. Now we wait for what Matthew has to say.

you should also bring up the fact that there are no real anti-feats for the 3-A mundus feat and that the reason why no universal feats were performed after that was that the situation never called for it

 

[DarkGrath]

you should also bring up the fact that there are no real anti-feats for the 3-A mundus feat and that the reason why no universal feats were performed after that was that the situation never called for it

Thank you for reminding me. I'll include that ASAP.

 

[Twellas]

Let me rectify, they do "exist", in the sense that the best feats seen below universal are tier 6, but they were all performed casually

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

Why y'all focusing on Mundus? He isn't the only person with a potential feat on that level. Argosax's mere presence (while he was still 99% sealed and weakened) was stated to be making the Human World and the Demon World merge and return to their original state.

 

[Ogbunabali]

You mean the portals?

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

Non-existent portals that I debunked and contradict the plot of the entire game? The only portal on DMC2's entire campaign is the Hell Gate that Arius attempts and fails to open near the end of the game. Completely unrelated to Argosax's feat.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Debunk it now?

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

I've already done it

Needless to say, we don't need to waste any more time with such an unfounded rebuttal that has no backing on the game's whole plot, and would contradict what Arius said to begin with.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Right. That "debunks" absolutely nothing. Moving on.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

Of course, no actual response, just denial of the facts of the game.

But your personal belief is not necessary. What the characters and official material say override everything else. Arius said that the mere unstabilization of Argosax's seal was already making everything that belonged to the demons revert to its original form, which was revealed on DMC3 (released later) to refer to the fact that the Demon World and the Human Worlds were originally one, and the official DMC2 guidebook even confirms it by saying that Dante and Lucia needed to stop Arius's ploy "to prevent the Demon World from consuming our dimension"

 

[ShivaShakti]

Scans?

 

[Ogbunabali]

Demon World and Human Worlds being one has only ever once been vaguely mentioned in the DMC3 manga, which doesn't even have to imply it in that way, because that same context can refer to portals as well.

And I'm assuming you have scans for all of these things you stated?

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

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• Arius: "The world is already warped. Everything that belongs to the devils will eventually revert to its original form"

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• "She is certain that his [Dante]'s skill is necessary to stop the evil (Argosax) and prevent the Demon World from consuming our dimension."

Anyone who is familiar with the DMC3 manga should be able to tell what Arius means by the "original form" (the fact that the Demon World and the Human World were once merged with each other before they were forcibly split in the distant past)

 

[Ogbunabali]

Those aren't literal, and the Human and Demon Worlds have never been one. Aside from a misinterpretation of the DMC3 manga every single other medium and mention of that event says that Sparda just seals off the portals.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Wasnt said in the manga that temen ni gru was created later on by humans to travel into the demon world and that Sparda threw that down and then sealed it so it cant allow demons pass through that?It says at the start the two worlds were together and that Pluto in dmc1 split them apart,there was no way for any sort of portal to exist when the demon and human world began to form around

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

No. Sorry, but you seem to be confused and uninformed about the subject. The beginning of the DMC3 manga doesn't deal with the battle between Sparda and Mundus, it deals with events that happened far, far before the known timeline of the series. Mundus and Sparda came after.

Calling an explicit statement referring to our very dimension being consumed as non-literal, despite the entire lore of the series proving you wrong, is a very convenient non-argument that is irrelevant.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

Wasnt said in the manga that temen ni gru was created later on by humans to travel into the demon world and that Sparda threw that down and then sealed it so it cant allow demons pass through that?It says at the start the two worlds were together and that Pluto in dmc1 split them apart,there was no way for any sort of portal to exist when the demon and human world began to form around

The fight between Sparda and Mundus and Sparda sealing the gateway to the Human World happened at a much, much later time than the DMC3 prologue's narration of humans and demons coexisting and the Demon World being separated from the Human World by an unknown demon. Pluto might have been the guy who split the Demon World from the Human World, we don't know, and it's not relevant to Argosax's nigh-unquestionable feat.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Right. The beginning talked about how the Human and Demon Worlds were connected and that travel between them was easily done, because of the portals not being sealed. And I'm assuming everyone that says "I have control of the planet" talks about how they literally control the whole planet.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

> Right. The beginning talked about how the Human and Demon Worlds were connected and that travel between them was easily done, because of the portals not being sealed

This is all blatantly false, nowhere in the manga is this implied. The only known portals connecting both worlds (the Temen Ni Gru and the portal at Mallet Island) were built much, much after the events narrated in the beginning of the DMC3 manga, which concern the creation of the universe as we know it. The Temen Ni Gru was built by humans who wanted to seek the power of Demons.

The actual fact is that, an unspecified amount of time prior to Mundus ruling the Demon World, the Demon World and Human Worlds existed on the same dimension and in harmony, before they were forcibly separated by an unknown demon. The Temen-ni-Gru was built after this event, and well after that, Mundus came into rule (eating the Qlipoth's fruits). No portals existed yet.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

And the Temen-ni-Gru is irrelevant and was mentioned nowhere in DMC2's plot. The only portal involved in DMC2 was the Hell Gate that Arius attempted to open near the end of the game, which had nothing to do with Argosax's feat.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Someone posted a scan where it states that Pluto will come on a promised date to split the two worlds,the dmc wiki lists Pluto beimg another name for Mundus,it also says about someone with treachery black wings opposing Pluto(that would be Sparda),the manga came later,so thats means he was the one who split them going by context

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

Pluto being another name for Mundus is speculation that has no backing, and Mundus actually wanted to rule the worlds as one, instead of splitting them, so Pluto isn't Mundus. And the DMC3 manga isn't talking about Mundus, it is referencing events far before Mundus was even the ruler of the Underworld.

The chronology of Devil May Cry is:

• The Human and Demon Worlds are split near the dawn of creation.

• Much, much, much later - Mundus eats the Qliphoth Tree's Fruit and becomes the ruler of the Demon World.

• Sparda and Mundus fight, the Temen Ni Gru is sealed.

Pluto's position on the DMC lore is unknowable. Perhaps he ruled the Demon World before Mundus and wanted to keep them separate. He could be the god of evil mentioned in the DMC1 guide, where it is stated that Mundus grew a personal army and "slaughtered the former god of Evil", which'd fit the description of Pluto being faced by someone with "black wings of treachery" (Mundus does have dark, shadowy wings). We can only speculate.

This is irrelevant to Argosax's feat either way. All that matters is that the two worlds were split. Who did it doesn't matter. And then Arius revealed that Argosax was going to undo the fision of the two worlds and merge them again, which is further confirmed in the guidebook, where it is said that Dante needs to prevent the evil (an obvious reference to Argosax) from making the Demon World consume the Human World.

 

[ShivaShakti]

I stand by Paradox on this one

 

[BlackDarkness679]

From how he looked in dmc1 he doesnt seem to have black wings,he was white like an angel,wings included

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

He was grey-ish.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Even so thats not black

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

Sure, but as I said, that isn't even relevant to the point.

 

[Kepekley23]

The thing is, the statement of the universe reverting to its original form isn't actually credited to Argosax in the game, even if it's not specifically an effect of the Hell Gate being opened near the end.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

...Yes, it is.

• "Now, give me the Arcanas. With them, my power will be complete, and I will become like the immortal, Argosax! I will achieve absolute wisdom and transcend all. The world is already warped. Everything that belongs to the demons will eventually revert to its original form"

With the Arcanas together, the ritual to unseal Argosax would be complete, leading to the Demon World consuming our universe, and the universe returning to the original form seen in DMC3, of endless chaos. This process literally can't NOT be credited to Argosax considering it intensifies the closer he gets to be unsealed.

 

[Twellas]

@DarkGrath you should also include these Argosax feats in the post

 

[DarkGrath]

@DarkGrath you should also include these Argosax feats in the post

My apologies, I haven't been keeping up with the posts and I'm not entirely sure what the Argosax feat actually is.

 

[Kepekley23]

@DarkGrath

Their argiment is about Argosax reuniting the two universes (the Demon World and the Human World)

 

[Silvervigilant]

I think the the feat about Argosax is pretty solid

 

[DarkGrath]

I've included it in the summary for Matthew, and I agree that it seems pretty solid. I've looked through all of the scans and links provided so far, so hopefully I haven't slipped up on any details.