Armament Haki Changes

[KingTempest]

If it was any other reason, he would've healed it prior to the funeral, which he didn't.

 

[Damage3245]

If it was any other reason, he would've healed it prior to the funeral, which he didn't.

Unless it was for a reason we're not aware if yet.

A lack of any other explanation presented to us isn't proof that our assumption on how it works must be correct.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

regeneration negation isn't the only explanation.

Then what's the other explanation?

 

[Purgy]

If it was any other reason, he would've healed it prior to the funeral, which he didn't.

Well as I briefly mentioned earlier

Marco was punched in the cheek by Garp, we visibly see the wound it causes, which funnily enough is gone when we see him at the funeral, so the wound on his forehead was most likely from something else during the war, it's not as if he only fought Garp.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

→ Armed color supremacy, clothed in
The fist is like a cannon ball. New World
It will crush even the fiercest of the new world.

 

[Purgy]

That's cool and all, but as I pointed out, we see the damage that Garp's punch inflicted and not only is it not on his forehead, but it's also gone when he's shown during the funeral.

 

[KingTempest]

Unless it was for a reason we're not aware if yet.

A lack of any other explanation presented to us isn't proof that our assumption on how it works must be correct.

We wouldn't wait for a reason and shut down every other reason until that potential reasoning (which isn't even certain to be provided) is given.

If someone breaks someone's shield, I'm going to assume they broke it via brute force and I'll keep that reasoning until otherwise.


We're stated that haki negs DF abilities.
We're provided proof that it's not limited to DF abilities.
Regeneration is an ability.
Regeneration is negged by Haki.

Well as I briefly mentioned earlier

Marco was punched in the cheek by Garp, we visibly see the wound it causes, which funnily enough is gone when we see him at the funeral, so the wound on his forehead was most likely from something else during the war, it's not as if he only fought Garp.

This is a mark of blood which could've been wiped off his face in the same exact battle, and we've discussed in several other threads that Oda's small marks of blood are ridiculously inconsistent.

In one page, it's on his cheek.
On the exact next page, which is a few seconds later, it's on his forehead.

Those marks aren't good enough for antiproof

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

From the blue flames come back to life again and again!
Former captain of the first squadron of whitebeard pirates! The ministry.


He is the first captain of the Whitebeard Pirates. He is trusted by Whitebeard more than anyone else, and is like his right-hand man. He is trusted by Whitebeard more than anyone else and is like his right-hand man. He is loved by his friends for his caring nature. He is a "juvenile beast," a rarer animal species than the natural ones, and can regenerate no matter how many times he is attacked.
Because of his abilities, he also has a background in medical studies, and after the war before the fall, he went into hiding as a doctor while continuing to protect the homeland of Whitebeard...! ...!

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

That's cool and all, but as I pointed out, we see the damage that Garp's punch inflicted and not only is it not on his forehead, but it's also gone when he's shown during the funeral.

I wasn't replying to you... I was just giving info that might help.

 

[Purgy]

This is a mark of blood which could've been wiped off his face in the same exact battle, and we've discussed in several other threads that Oda's small marks of blood are ridiculously inconsistent.

In one page, it's on his cheek.
On the exact next page, which is a few seconds later, it's on his forehead.

Those marks aren't good enough for antiproof

That's not blood, it's a mark to show that Marco was just punched in the cheek by Garp.

And if you're pointing out how inconsistent it is, why is it being used for evidence of regen negation?

 

[Damage3245]

We wouldn't wait for a reason and shut down every other reason until that potential reasoning (which isn't even certain to be provided) is given.

That's why I'm not advocating we remove it entirely, but give it the "Possibly" prefix in my proposal up above.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Flame of Regeneration," which increases the speed of regeneration, is effective not only for the ability holder but also for others!

 

[KingTempest]

That's not blood, it's a mark to show that Marco was just punched in the cheek by Garp.

That's blood, noted by the color.

And if you're pointing out how inconsistent it is, why is it being used for evidence of regen negation?

The evidence was the twisted neck and the bandages, which is why several people have repeatedly stated "he hadn't healed it up to the funeral"

That's why I'm not advocating we remove it entirely, but give it the "Possibly" prefix in my proposal up above.

It doesn't warrant a possibly. The only reason why I'm seeing a possibly is because it's a hard pill to swallow.

If we have a few other justifications then a possibly would make sense.
This is the only justification we're given. It wouldn't/shouldn't warrant a possibly

 

[Damage3245]

If we have a few other justifications then a possibly would make sense.
This is the only justification we're given. It wouldn't/shouldn't warrant a possibly

If we had a few more supporting feats than a Possibly wouldn't make sense for it; but this is the only plausible case of it in the manga and it has been suggested that natural healing can deal with injuries inflicted by Armament Haki.

Since this is the only case, and this case is vague enough that some users aren't convinced by it, then I think this is a good time to use the "Possibly" prefix.

The only reason why I'm seeing a possibly is because it's a hard pill to swallow.

Also because it is unstated and we're just assuming how it works.

 

[Purgy]

That's blood, noted by the color.

The evidence was the twisted neck and the bandages, which is why several people have repeatedly stated "he hadn't healed it up to the funeral"

Who's blood is it? Neither Garp or Marco are bleeding, blood doesn't just appear out of thin air.

It's clearly a bruise

And it being red isn't proof of anything, punch marks literally always look like that in manga.

The twisted neck and bandages you can't even prove came from Garp, nor can you entirely dismiss the claim that Marco simply chose not to waste stamina healing extremely minor injuries.

Not even sure about possibly to be honest, the evidence is quite weak.

 

[RazumaHiroki]

Since this is the only case, and this case is vague enough that some users aren't convinced by it, then I think this is a good time to use the "Possibly" prefix.

What do you mean by some users? there are more people in favor of regen negation than disagreements.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

The whole body was enveloped in blue flames.
regenerate instantly! It is an ability that allows you to face the attacks of the general class head on!

 

[Damage3245]

What do you mean by some users? there are more people in favor of regen negation than disagreements.

We don't go by popular vote; but I'm just saying that it isn't as conclusive as you might think since the explanation isn't satisfactory to everyone.

 

[KingTempest]

If we had a few more supporting feats than a Possibly wouldn't make sense for it; but this is the only plausible case of it in the manga and it has been suggested that natural healing can deal with injuries inflicted by Armament Haki.

These points have been long since refuted.
People have shown bruises healed in weeks' time to try to refute a bruise in a battle

Since this is the only case, and this case is vague enough that some users aren't convinced by it, then I think this is a good time to use the "Possibly" prefix.

It's not vague, they're trying to find other reasons for it to justify it.

Someone said Kizaru put haki on his lasers and he didn't stop his regen. I refuted that.
Someone said Marco just waited before he healed the damage. I refuted that.

Them not believing it ≠ vague

Also because it is unstated and we're just assuming how it works.

It's unstated Luffy gets hurt by blunt attacks and we consider that how it is on the wiki.
It's unstated Luffy dodged lasers with observation haki and we've long considered it how it is on the wiki.
There's many things unstated that hinders things on this wiki. It not being stated is not an argument. I expect the same standard for all our threads.


This is under the entire table of Haki negating devil fruits and adding the abilities we've seen be negated to the list of what gets negated.

Who's blood is it? Neither Garp or Marco are bleeding, blood doesn't just appear out of thin air.

Marco from a punch

It's clearly a bruise

And it being red isn't proof of anything, punch marks literally always look like that in manga.

Then this gotta be tackled then since people have marks like that blood for months

The twisted neck and bandages you can't even prove came from Garp,

When Garp punches him we see his head turned in the opposite direction that his body is facing.
Marco gets no other neck injuries.
99% sure that it's from Garp, and nothing proves otherwise.

nor can you entirely dismiss the claim that Marco simply chose not to waste stamina healing extremely minor injuries.

So Marco didn't waste stamina for the span of like a week to heal a bruise dealt in a war from a punch that twisted his neck?

Not even sure about possibly to be honest, the evidence is quite weak.

You not believing it ≠ it being weak evidence

 

[RazumaHiroki]

We don't go by popular vote; but I'm just saying that it isn't as conclusive as you might think since the explanation isn't satisfactory to everyone.

Damage, not everyone can satisfied with everything be it downgrade, upgrade or a small ability addition (most of the time you are being told to deal with it either ways), do you think that stopped anyone from either doing at least one of these? there are always people still not satisfied with the outcome, but that's another day in VSBW, not really uncommon here.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

He is a "juvenile beast," a rarer animal species than the natural ones, and can regenerate no matter how many times he is attacked.

The only thing it can be is by haki.

That literally goes against what you guys are saying that he doesn't have the stamina to regen

 

[Damage3245]

Damage, not everyone can satisfied with everything be it downgrade, upgrade or a small ability addition (most of the time you are being told to deal with it either ways), do you think that stopped anyone from either doing at least one of these? there are always people still not satisfied with the outcome, but that's another day in VSBW, not really uncommon.

Agreed - but some cases are more vague or more certain than others.

If somebody disagreed with King having Fire Manipulation and wanted it as a "Possibly" then I wouldn't agree with them.

It's a case-by-case thing.

And in this case, I don't think it is that certain that Haki should be listed with a simple "Regeneration Negation" which has no explanation attached to it.

If natural healing (which isn't very quick as far as regeneration can go) can deal with Haki-delivered injuries over time, then in some cases a character with exceptional natural regeneration might be able to heal the injury much quicker. Which is why it is important that we're specific with our explanations.

 

[Purgy]

Marco from a punch

Then this gotta be tackled then since people have marks like that blood for months

When Garp punches him we see his head turned in the opposite direction that his body is facing.
Marco gets no other neck injuries.
99% sure that it's from Garp, and nothing proves otherwise.

So Marco didn't waste stamina for the span of like a week to heal a bruise dealt in a war from a punch that twisted his neck?

You not believing it ≠ it being weak evidence

Didn't answer my question, who's blood is it? Neither of them were bleeding, unless you're saying blood magically seeped out of Marco's cheek

Marco then proceeds to stand up and his neck is fine, Garp clearly didn't crack his neck, Marco had offscreen confrontations among other things, the neck wound could have been caused by literally anything.

Why bother consuming stamina to heal something that'll heal naturally? It's not as if he was in critical condition. The punch breaking, cracking, twisting his neck or whatever is fabricated, that's not confirmed anywhere, Marco's head being turned a bit isn't evidence of anything, his neck is fine the next time we see him.

It has nothing to do with belief, I'm saying the arguments presented for regen negation are weak, like, really weak, no idea how this has even gone on for as long as it has, the evidence is entirely inferential and open to multiple interpretations, even being offered a possibly for it is a gift.

 

[KingTempest]

"Regeneration Negation" which has no explanation attached to it.

As Busoshoku Haki negates devil fruit abilities, which have been shown to extend to non devil fruit abilities as well (The natural Shinokuni virus poison being blocked off by haki, a flame creature being physically attacked by punches coated in Busoshoku Haki, etc), we have decided to give Haki negation to the abilities shown in verse.
Regeneration Negation (Although it is not indefinite, users of Busoshoku Haki have been shown to stop victims from regenerating)

 

[KingTempest]

Didn't answer my question, who's blood is it? Neither of them were bleeding, unless you're saying blood magically seeped out of Marco's cheek

And I conceded on that point of the blood, which has no significance to my argument

Marco then proceeds to stand up and his neck is fine, Garp clearly didn't crack his neck, Marco had offscreen confrontations among other things, the neck wound could have been caused by literally anything.

We've seen Marco's fights for the whole arc, and there's nobody else who could've done it outside of Garp.
This is headcanon that anyone harmed his neck.

Why bother consuming stamina to heal something that'll heal naturally?

Because it doesn't take that much stamina to heal a single neck wound in the span of a few seconds and it's inconvenient to walk around with.

It's not as if he was in critical condition. The punch breaking, cracking, twisting his neck or whatever is fabricated, that's not confirmed anywhere, Marco's head being turned a bit isn't evidence of anything, his neck is fine the next time we see him.

Marco's neck is "fine" when the war ends. Puts bandages on at the funeral. Definitely not fine.

 

[Damage3245]

The natural Shinokuni virus poison being blocked off by haki

I don't think I'd even count that as blocking an ability tbh. Luffy has resistance to poison - and the petrification effect could have simply broken off as Luffy's gigantic Gear 3 hands returned to normal size.

a flame creature being physically attacked by punches coated in Busoshoku Haki

This one has also been disputed.

we have decided to give Haki negation to the abilities shown in verse

That's too open-ended.

If you're vague enough in applying these abilities then you could end up saying "Haki users can walk on water if they apply Haki to their feet, because they negate the intangibility of the water beneath them and they can negate Water Manipulation since that's an ability in the verse."

Although it is not indefinite, users of Busoshoku Haki have been shown to stop victims from regenerating

A single victim, no?

 

[PrinceofPein]

In one page, it's on his cheek.
On the exact next page,

This would only mean he already healed from the cheek one garp inflicted and that's another wound from.something else
Marco did a whole lot of off screen battle in marineford so it is wrong to assume the only possible explanation for the bandage on his head is haki negating his regeneration when there are so many possible explanation
So hence "possibly" is the best option.
I mean the recent chapters, he literally fought king and queen
King on his vivre card shows he can use haki and good at it, so are you saying king never used haki to attack him at all?

 

[Purgy]

We've seen Marco's fights for the whole arc, and there's nobody else who could've done it outside of Garp.
This is headcanon that anyone harmed his neck.

Because it doesn't take that much stamina to heal a single neck wound in the span of a few seconds and it's inconvenient to walk around with.

Marco's neck is "fine" when the war ends. Puts bandages on at the funeral. Definitely not fine.

Headcanon is saying it had to be done by Garp when Marco had offscreen confrontations during the war

Marco's bandages are vague, we don't know why he had them during the funeral, the fact that you think the only conclusion is because Garp punched him with regen negating Haki is the problem, especially since that argument itself is headcanon.

His neck is fine immediately after Garp punches him, he stands up, moves around etc, if his neck was seriously injured he'd not be doing that.

As for the bandage, again, it's vague and open to multiple interpretations, Garp causing it and Haki negating regen is just one.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Marco did a whole lot of off screen battle in marineford so it is wrong to assume the only possible explanation for the bandage on his head is haki negating his regeneration when there are so many possible explanation

There is no other explanation... Otherwise it would have regenerated.

Headcanon is saying it had to be done by Garp when Marco had offscreen confrontations during the war

Offscreen doesn't matter... He can regen no matter how much he gets hit

He is a "juvenile beast," a rarer animal species than the natural ones, and can regenerate no matter how many times he is attacked.

Marco's bandages are vague, we don't know why he had them during the funeral, the fact that you think the only conclusion is because Garp punched him with regen negating Haki is the problem, especially since that argument itself is headcanon.

It's not when literally nothing else could do that.

His neck is fine immediately after Garp punches him, he stands up, moves around etc, if his neck was seriously injured he'd not be doing that.

And Sanji can fight normally while having broken bones.

As for the bandage, again, it's vague and open to multiple interpretations, Garp causing it and Haki negating regen is just one.

That's the only explanation...

 

[RazumaHiroki]

Headcanon is saying it had to be done by Garp when Marco had offscreen confrontations during the war

With whom exactly? literally the only character, who was capable of bypassing Marco's regen was Garp. Nor Kizaru and Akainu could've done that, or are you implying there is someone stronger than both combined that's not Garp?

Marco's bandages are vague, we don't know why he had them during the funeral, the fact that you think the only conclusion is because Garp punched him with regen negating Haki is the problem, especially since that argument itself is headcanon.

If you claims our interpretation to be headcanon, surely you can backup your own interpretation as to why he still had the bandages on? at least our "headcanon" can be explained in various ways because of the evidence that's presented to us. Saying "he chose not to do, because for unexplained reasons" is even a bigger headcanon.

 

[KingTempest]

I don't think I'd even count that as blocking an ability tbh. Luffy has resistance to poison - and the petrification effect could have simply broken off as Luffy's gigantic Gear 3 hands returned to normal size.

Luffy does not destroy poison that makes contact with his body. We've discussed this already.
That is headcanon, or else it would've uniformly broken off if the entire hand was shrinking, which it didn't.

This one has also been disputed.

No it has not. It has been ignored.

That's too open-ended.

If you're vague enough in applying these abilities then you could end up saying "Haki users can walk on water if they apply Haki to their feet, because they negate the intangibility of the water beneath them and they can negate Water Manipulation since that's an ability in the verse."

A showing of Haki that has never been used before is a bad example.
Outside of the fact that water is not a living being with elemental intangibility, this example is just bad

This would only mean he already healed from the cheek one garp inflicted and that's another wound from.something else
Marco did a whole lot of off screen battle in marineford so it is wrong to assume the only possible explanation for the bandage on his head is haki negating his regeneration when there are so many possible explanation

Did you not read the scans? Where this is Marco in a single thought in 1 fight a few seconds from each other?

King on his vivre card shows he can use haki and good at it, so are you saying king never used haki to attack him at all?

It never says he's good at it. Headcanon.

Headcanon is saying it had to be done by Garp when Marco had offscreen confrontations during the war

No he did not. He had a 1v1 with Kizaru for an extended period of time, he saved Luffy a few times then went back to Kizaru, then he fought Akainu with no damage dealt.

And the moment that he was actually significantly injured they showed him again.

You're insinuating some random fodder came and hurt marco.

Marco's bandages are vague, we don't know why he had them during the funeral, the fact that you think the only conclusion is because Garp punched him with regen negating Haki is the problem, especially since that argument itself is headcanon.

WE SEE GARP TWIST HIS NECK THEN WE SEE BANDAGES ON HIS NECK
Now yall are just ignoring what's given for some random narrative.

Prove to me someone else gave that injury.

His neck is fine immediately after Garp punches him, he stands up, moves around etc, if his neck was seriously injured he'd not be doing that.

You can get in a fight and not get brain damage and still put a bandage on your head.

As for the bandage, again, it's vague and open to multiple interpretations, Garp causing it and Haki negating regen is just one.

No. It's the only one with the least assumptions

 

[RazumaHiroki]

King on his vivre card shows he can use haki and good at it, so are you saying king never used haki to attack him at all?

King's confirmed to have "basic Armament", basically the weakest application of Busoshoku haki, furthermore he's not a swordsman. Unlike Queen, who has proven to have Koka/Hardening, King hasn't displayed that. So, why should his attack work when Marco's Busoshoku haki is stronger than his?

 

[Damage3245]

King's confirmed to have "basic Armament", basically the weakest application of Busoshoku haki, furthermore he's not a swordsman. Unlike Queen, who has proven to have Koka/Hardening, King hasn't displayed that. So, why should his attack work when Marco's Busoshoku haki is stronger than his?

Why would Marco's Haki being stronger than King's mean his regeneration would still work? Where has that been stated?

 

[KingTempest]

Why would Marco's Haki being stronger than King's mean his regeneration would still work? Where has that been stated?

We've discussed on many threads that superior haki can stop the effects of inferior haki.

Luffy not being elastic when Doffy kicked him and Akainu not being tangible when Marco and Vista hit him are 2 examples.

 

[RazumaHiroki]

Why would Marco's Haki being stronger than King's mean his regeneration would still work? Where has that been stated?

Damage....... King's character profile literally states he has basic Busoshoku haki and basic kenbunshoku haki, if you have evidence that his busoshoku haki is that good please make a CTR.

 

[PrinceofPein]

There is no other explanation... Otherwise it would have regenerated.

There are tho, that's the entire point of this thread

Did you not read the scans? Where this is Marco in a single thought in 1 fight a few seconds from each other?

Okay so it is a case of art inconsistency?
He was shown to be hit on the cheeks, bruise was shown on the cheeks. Then next bruise on forehead?

It never says he's good at it. Headcanon.

My bad, it was not head canon just misremembered.
So the point still is he can use haki and it would mean he never attacked Marco once with it?
So basically King would obviously know his haki would stop Marco wounds from regenerating but he didn't use haki cause of what explanation again?

King's confirmed to have "basic Armament", basically the weakest application of Busoshoku haki, furthermore he's not a swordsman. Unlike Queen, who has proven to have Koka/Hardening, King hasn't displayed that. So, why should his attack work when Marco's Busoshoku haki is stronger than his?

Isn't it basic armament all that is needed to negate the said regeneration?
And queen fought Marco? No?

And where did you see this! Seriously now bigger assumptions the reason why Marco can regenerate is cause he overpowered king haki with his own haki??

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

There are tho, that's the entire point of this thread

Give me one then.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

And where did you see this! Seriously now bigger assumptions the reason why Marco can regenerate is cause he overpowered king haki with his own haki??

Bro... I have said at least 15 times and I have seen probably 50 other messages that say it as well

 

[RazumaHiroki]

Isn't it basic armament all that is needed to negate the said regeneration?
And queen fought Marco? No?

And where did you see this! Seriously now bigger assumptions the reason why Marco can regenerate is cause he overpowered king haki with his own haki??

Pain this has been established very early on in the New world. Remember, G4 Luffy vs Doffy? Luffy was still "Rubber". Now consider Luffy vs Cracker, luffy's arm "got cut". Do i need to spell it out for you or do you get my point?

 

[Purgy]

Don't feel like responding to three people saying the same thing, so just gonna respond to Tempest

No he did not. He had a 1v1 with Kizaru for an extended period of time, he saved Luffy a few times then went back to Kizaru, then he fought Akainu with no damage dealt.

And the moment that he was actually significantly injured they showed him again.

You're insinuating some random fodder came and hurt marco.

WE SEE GARP TWIST HIS NECK THEN WE SEE BANDAGES ON HIS NECK
Now yall are just ignoring what's given for some random narrative.

Prove to me someone else gave that injury.

You can get in a fight and not get brain damage and still put a bandage on your head.

No. It's the only one with the least assumptions

Marco had several offscreen confrontations, shown by the fact that he randomly appears with more/different injuries whenever we see him after a time gap.

Between being hit by Garp and Whitebeard having his heart attack he had an offscreen confrontation with Kizaru

Between being shot by Kizaru's lasers and Luffy using CoC Marco has multiple new injuries on his face, yet another offscreen encounter

Fought Akainu alongside Vista offscreen

Fought Akainu again alongside all the commanders, pretty much entirely off-screen.

We don't see Garp twist his neck, Marco's neck was fine, you're assuming it was twisted from the fact that it was turned slightly.