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Arceus Hax Upgrade

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Regardless, whether his control is absolute in his verse or not does not matter. He at the very least should have high level control over the concepts of the trio and using one specific PIS filled move to against every other occurence where his control is not a bunch of hot air should not disprove anything here.
 
Dino Ranger Black said:
Sorry for the lack of response, everyone. So, have we reached our conclusion?
Click to expand...
No problem. RL comes first.

Well the reasoning and arguments for NOT accepting this seem to have gotten counter-pointed and no further addressing as come up. Though really we havent come to a complete conclusion yet sadly. It may take a bit longer (though not much longer at least).
 
I see. Well, considering more people agree with thread and counter arguements than not, it seems like we can implement the power in Arcues' profile.
 
Fair enough. I mean we could wait a bit longer but given the issues with the changes are now just being repeated and repeatedly counter-pointed, it seems fair to add the changes so this thread won't explode any more than it has been.

Also question to go with the changes and this was brought up earlier:

Since Arceus can fuse the type concepts together (literally took 5 of his plates and made them into the Jewel of Life), would that mean Arceus can use the power of more than one type concept simuntaeously? I mean the Jewel of Life did use the power of Water, Grass, Ground, Electricity and Dragon all combined to restore the life of a whole region just by glowing.
 
It doesn't seem like the case considering, both in battle and out, Arcues normally has to (Nintendo) switch plates in order to gain a typing.
 
Good point. I have no issues with that being denied as its just something I was wondering about.

So back to the concepts. Other than the ones accepted before there are still 4 more that need to be decided on. Life, Death, Probability and Casuality. Or well, at least the first 2 as there's a lot of input for them.
 
Well... The problem with Life and Death is that there isn't much about it except Xerneas and Yveltal, so is too speculative to be implemented. Same with the other two. And while the Jewel of Life can restore, well... Life, to an area, Shaymin can, too, given enough pollution to absorb.
 
I am also against this considering Reppu and Matt brought up convincing agruements as to why Arceus doesn't even have full control of the concepts it birthed as well the lack of showings for many of the things stated in this thread and it's profile.

Also they are more clear disagreements than agreements and even if I miscounted there are still more admins and knowledgeable members against this than there are for it.

For it:

The real cal howard, ProfessorKukui4Life, EliminatorVenom,Vegan Gains, DerpCity, LephyrTheRevanchist, Dino Ranger Black, Kevyn Souza, Zexgen.

Against it:

LordXcano, Reppuzan, Saikou The Lewd King, DontTalk, XBlackExcellenceX, Cropfist,The Everlasting, Promestein, Matthew Schroeder, Antvasima, Sage God Slayer.
 
@Sage

Kukui countered every point agaisn't Arceus not fully controlling the trio with a pretty big wall of text of where Arceus does control them.

The thread also shares some pieces of lore where it is stated, in Arceus' plates themselves, that the Pokémon Types come from him. So he created those concepts, too.

Edit: Not only created, but shaped. And given how he can create another set of the Creation Trio, which are the concepts of Space, Time and Antimatter themselves, well...
 
ONE, these things aren't up to vote like a vs thread and two, you forgot that a big factor in Azzy is for it.
 
@Cal

He agrees Arceus should have control over typing but I don't remeber him agreeing using it to apply random typings to other characters out of the verse in a debate.

@Lephyr

The plates may give the pokemon their typings but Arceus didn't make the plates as you guys stated, so when it is out of verse fighting non Pokemon it can't add typings to other characters since the are explicitly stated to only affect Pokemon.
 
For one, half of those people you said are "against" it never said they disagreed with this so that is wrong.

Secondly, it doesnt matter if more people are against it than for it as the reasons why they dont agree have been counter-pointed and are now just being repeatedly brought up at this point. There is no new argument.

Thirdly, there is nothing proving he lacks control over the concepts when literally every instance shows and proves otherwise except a PIS movie, which we've explained why for the upteenth time now.

Fourth, what do you mean not applying typing? Verse Equalization is a thing and if that wasnt the case then Arceus would not even be able to use its plates for Attack Negation. Of course we can't and will not stamp a type onto everyone here as its obvious NLF but for those who can have it, they are getting it as far as im concerned.

Fifth, proof Arceus didnt make the type plates? They are a part of him and if he didnt make them he wouldnt have them in the first place if they just showed up at some random time after the multiverse was created. In addition, the plates have their power shared among pokemon and they record the events that happen before and after the multiverse's creation. Such as recording the birth of the creation trio which the only one who could possibly have ever done that is Arceus.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Well... The problem with Life and Death is that there isn't much about it except Xerneas and Yveltal, so is too speculative to be implemented. Same with the other two. And while the Jewel of Life can restore, well... Life, to an area, Shaymin can, too, given enough pollution to absorb.
Click to expand...
For the life and death ones I don't see how its too speculative. Arceus may not have directly created them but they are literally the life and destruction pokemon and their powers over life/death are classified under the Fairy and Dark type. Not to mention the other moves that deal with taking, giving and absorbing life energy. And funny you should mention shaymin because it doesnt need to absorb pollution to do that. Shaymin with its Aromatheraphy move was able to restore Giratina who due to PIS was near death. But im not sure if everyone else will accept that scene. And isnt the Lickwick line a thing?

Casuality and Probability are a different matter tho. I'd like Cal and some others to give a final say on those as I agree they are speculative.
 
It doesn't seem like a far stretch.....I mean, Arcues did created a jewel that created life......despite that movie where it happened being the pinnacle of PIS in Pokemon.
 
Dino Ranger Black said:
It doesn't seem like a far stretch.....I mean, Arcues did created a jewel that created life......despite that movie where it happened being the pinnacle of PIS in Pokemon.
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Whats not too far a stretch?
 
Ohhh lol my fault. Yeah it would seem that way.

Honestly at this point, Life/Death seems like a given but can be discussed a bit more.

Even though its unlikely, what i'd really want to discuss more is the possbility of Casuality and Probability being a concept here. I mean, for Probability we have moves like Lucky Chant and for Casuality, it appears Topsy Turvy and Heart Swap imply it. But it needs a final say from some others as I honestly do not know about this.
 
I have a hard time deciding which side that seems to be correct regarding this topic. My apologies.
 
I personally believe we could leave the file as is. Or just add the stuff Azzy said would be okay for Arceus to have. This thread has been extremely drawn out.
 
That seems reasonable, yes.
 
@Antvasima

Don't worry at all, this thread like Dragon said has gotten drawn out. In fact, I should apologize for keep bumping it as I would just like to discuss the last of the topic and if no other arguments against this come up, we can add the changes and then finally close this.

Also, Azzy seems to be okay with pretty much everything as he agrees its logical for Arceus to have the concept of the types and anything else they come with.
 
I wanted to finish my concept manipulation blog, before contributing here again, so sorry for being late. But what I implied in my previous reply here was that I don't see evidence that arceus has done anything on an abstract level and not just a physical one. Maybe I have overlooked something in all the replies, and if so I am sorry for prolonging this, but could someone explain or tell me which answer that was explained in? (on my phone currently while in class hence no more throughout replying for now. )
 
Since the pokemon world lacked basic concepts like space and time prior to arceus creating them it is highly likely it also lacked the concepts of probability/ causality/ life/ death. I don't know of explicit proof for this though.
 
@DaFritzi

Well, as I put in the OP so everyone can see, the plates are the sources of all the type concepts as their power is literally shared among all pokemon. That means they are getting their elemental power from the plates. The power of types are also pretty much shared to the entire multiverse itself since it contains the elements like fire and water, which would explain how unnatural born pokemon like Deoxys, a virus, and Trubbish, literal trash, would get the Psychic and Poison type. In addition, copies of the plates are all distrubuted throughout the multiverse from the original ones that are with Arceus like how the trio are since the plate replicates can be used to boost a pokemons power and be found by humans in the multiverse.

And the plates are a direct part of Arceus, the source of his elemental prowse. Which would support him being able to give abstracts like the creation and lake trios the types they are and the potential moves of other types they can perform. Not to mention the plates record their birth and all the events that come before and after the creation of the multiverse.
 
What I meant by answer was that if it was mentioned in a reply to the thread before just telling me which reply it was would also suffice.


I don't see anything indication that arceus did anything with concepts.

Him creating fire or all pokémon drawing their fire power from his plates doesn't mean he created a concept. Neither does the fact that before arceus no fire existed mean that before him no concept of fire (that is the abstract object) existed so that anything would have needed to create it.

Even if arceus would be involved in every creation of fire (which he isn't, nothing indicating he is involved in a human lighting a cigar) that wouldn't indicate him making any change in the abstract plane.


Interpreting "The powers of Plates are shared among Pokémon." as all prokémons power coming from the plates is something I find questionable btw.

I think it means that the types of powers are shared between pokémon in the sense of them having the same types as the plates. So for example the pokémon share the fire type between each other. (basically like all naruto ninjas share the power of chakra originating from the chakra fruit, but each of them having their own chakra source)

(technically there is also the possibility of that describing the behaviour of pokémons in that they share the additional power plates give them, if they are found)
 
Is t really such a big deal that Arceus gets stuff like poison and metal manipulation? That's literally all I'm requesting.
 
I'll wait for Cal to come by since he argues that better than I do, but im sort of confused here and i'll use your example.

If he created fire to begin with, then he is creating the concept of it just as he did with concepts like Time and Space. Fire and the other types like those did not exist at all until Arceus came and the multiverse was created. And for your human point, them lighting a cigar is done by them having the knowledge or will to even do so, which the lake trio brought about. And their concepts were created by Arceus. Not to mention all humans and pokemon are a part of Arceus anyway since they are parts of the Original Spirit.

Well the plates are where the types are coming from and pokemon couldnt have just suddenly got the power of the elements on their own. It's not like Pikachu became an electric type for encountering electricity. Or charmander a fire type for encountering fire. Their types and the elements are coming from a source and from that quote it would be the plates.
 
The real cal howard said:
Is t really such a big deal that Arceus gets stuff like poison and metal manipulation? That's literally all I'm requesting.
Click to expand...
Poison and metal manipulation?

No, that is something any universal reality warper should more or less have by default.

Manipulation of the concepts of poison and metal? Yes, that is an entirely different cup of tea.
 
In your blog, yeah. I find it ridiculous to give Arceus the ability to change the concept of metal so it's always on fire. All I'm asking is for Arceus to have good control over Pokemon's types and the abilities that comes with them. I don't give a care in the world about the stat stuff or the life and death stuff.
 
The real cal howard said:
In your blog, yeah. I find it ridiculous to give Arceus the ability to change the concept of metal so it's always on fire. All I'm asking is for Arceus to have good control over Pokemon's types and the abilities that comes with them. I don't give a care in the world about the stat stuff or the life and death stuff.
Click to expand...
Im kind of confused Cal. Werent we arguing this the whole time? Your Hades sword example made me assume you wanted Arceus to manipulate it via changing it to water due to controlling the concept of water, or changing it into insects because of having the concept of bugs.
 
All I was asking for was for Arceus having a broken version of elemental manipulation due to the creation of all types. Whether it's conceptual or not is none of my concern. A conceptual level of it was the one most pushed so I decided to stick with it.
 
Ahhhhhhh. I see.

Hmm. I guess I can side with that too. But how broken would it be then? Because half of us can't decide on whether its conceptual or not.
 
@Cal

What do we do with the Ghost, Dark, Fairy, Dragon and Psychic types?

How do we classify them?
 
@Zexgen

I believe we classified them earlier above. Ghost is Spirit/Soul. Psychic is Mind, Dreams and Magic. Dark is Darkness and Fairy is Light.

However, I made 4 other last suggestions that possibly could be classified under these 4 types but they havent been addressed yet. I still want to know if Life, Death, Probability and Casuality would be a thing or not. Especially on the Life/Death part.
 
If all pokémon draw their power from the tables should not Arceus have the ability to use all the movements of their franchise because each move is classified by type?

@Kukui

Dark type could also represent the death due to Yveltal and movements like Memento also the fairy type could also represent the life due to Xerneas and Geomancy that was able to give life back to the dead...
 
@Zexgen

Considering the fact that there's only one Pokemon representing death and destruction, I feel that's too much of an extrapolation, especially since his signature move is Flying-Type.
 
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