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Arceus Hax Upgrade

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Which would be guess-work? Not only would it not make sense to use C.M. to stomp beings already fodder to you in all scenerios, but Arceus has scenes of controlling them completely outside of a PIS movie. And isnt C.M. not used really at all by anyone due to how ridiculously strong it is?
 
@Matt. I'm not certain of this myself, as I don't really think I participated in that upgrade thread, but I think it comes from each alternate game has its own Kalos(?) which has its own reflection cave, which has the mirrors leading to different universes. Don't quote me on that.

And for the primary argument, here's an analogy, followed by many more. Digimon's God created all the concepts of the Digimon verse, but had to resort to sealing to get rid of Zeed. Does that mean that God's conceptual manipulation is flawed? No, Zeed has resistances to a shit ton of stuff now (Obviously I'm not calling for a downgrade. This is just an analogy). This isn't different. The crux of the opposition heavily scrutinizing Arceus is that a few Low 2-Cs put up a fight against a 2-C that casually created several of them. I'm not the only one who sees how ridiculous that is, right? I guess Zamasu's not Low 2-C because Goku and co. survived an attack, and Frieza's 5-B because Krillin didn't instantly die. Heck, this downplay can work for even more OP verses like SMT, Saint Seiya, DC Comics, etc.
 
Two Wrongs don't make a right, Howard. Your Zeed comparison doesn't even matter because Zeed isn't a conceptual being, while the Creation Trio is.
 
The thing is, it wouldn't just be two wrongs. It'd be dozens upon dozens of wrongs. Also, you kinda lost me, because in that case, it should be easier to defeat Zeed if he wasn't a conceptual being, but he's a resistant being now.
 
In addition, what I don't get here is why you need to manipulate entire concepts to defeat beings who are fodder to you no matter how weakened you are.

They're all fodder to Incomplete Arceus. Complete Arceus? Then they become even more fodder. Arceus can stomp them all just by launching a simple beam attack or Judgement. Manipulating an entire concept to make them powerless when they'll be fodderized no matter what is not really neccesary. Heck even plateless Arceus is much above them as demonstrated in the manga when he without any plates simuntaneously made another set of the trio at the Sinjoh Ruins.

Also something people seem to be forgetting: Arceus with just a limited number of plates could still negate the trio's attacks so already their offensive abilities are made useless. So what point is there to manipulate a concept to stomp someone when attack negation by itself is enough to make their power completely useless?
 
Again, your examples just aren't comparable. Arceus doesn't hold 100% power over conceptual beings he himself created, when his profile currently treats him as having 100% control over all concepts he created.
 
No, I just question his powers. Hard to buy he has 100% control over concepts when feats show the contrary. In fact, what says he invented the concepts? For all we know, he could just have created embodiments for already existing concepts that just didn't exist on the physical level.
 
Before we bother continuing an endless parade of upgrades for the Pokemon top tiers, could we have a really good explanation page (preferably one with many, many citations) for them? I'm a big Pokemon fan, but even I have no idea what the reasoning is behind a great many of the abilities on the top tier pages. If a good explanation page is made, we can understand these characters better, know which claims are true and which are false, and not have to go through similar arguements multiple times.
 
In PMD is literally said to have created all things and in the pokedex it is said repeatedly that in a place where there was nothing molded and shaped the universe.

It is very similar to the reasoning of the conceptual manipulation of God (Digimon) that according to the links provided in its page only says that "I create the digital world and its laws."


I want to clarify that it seems to me a very solid feat for the conceptual manipulation of God.


Of course I'm not saying that Arceus has created all the concepts, only reaffirm those that are already in his profile ...


P.D If there are more feats related to their manipulation, forgive my ignorance ;_;
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
No, I just question his powers. Hard to buy he has 100% control over concepts when feats show the contrary.
Click to expand...
What feats? Feats of him controlling the conceptual creation trio have already been brought up multiple times so they arent contradicting anything.

Also I'll respectfully ask, when has the claim he controlls "all concepts" been made? We are only claiming for Arceus to controll the concepts we believe to be created by him. Not just any concept period.
 
Let me just say these things. I am neutral here since honestly, I really don't care for this stuff anymore. I got other things to worry about...

1) Yes Arceus created these concepts. That is a very nice feat. However, he only has shown this power in the games in which he is allowed Roar of Time and such. Even then that is a special thing only. He created conceptual beings to hold embody said concepts. There is not proof that said creator kept said control. We have to remember that Arceus indeed allowed Dialga and Palkia create everything matter. Am I saying Arceus is below them? No. I'll let ya'll decide this since I'm not as familiar with Arceus stuff as I was last year.

2) Regarding Reflection Cave. I'll let Azzy and you guys deal with it, simple as that.

3) @Matt That is due to the fact that The Creation Trio and the Lake Trio are there concepts as detailed in entries. Time began when Dialga was born. Same with the other members.

That is all. I will have nothing else to do with this.
 
Am I the only one rather worried by the fact that this thread and almost every other thread regarding the Creation Trio and co. have little to no citations or links?
 
Follow Doctor Freeman said:
Am I the only one rather worried by the fact that this thread and almost every other thread regarding the Creation Trio and co. have little to no citations or links?
Click to expand...
The same is for countless other files and characters. Worry about that later.
 
Follow Doctor Freeman said:
Am I the only one rather worried by the fact that this thread and almost every other thread regarding the Creation Trio and co. have little to no citations or links?
Click to expand...
Well Cal posted the quote and the lore of the plates in which they record and predate the history of everything, before and after the creation of the multiverse. As well as the power of the plates being shared among pokemon, so all the types and the moves the pokemon get will be coming from the plates themselves.

I know its a very large thread but has anyone even read through some of it before replying?
 
The real cal howard said:
@Repp. The plates in the primary canon predate everything sans Arceus himself, including the Creation and Lake trio, given that these are there to record the creation of Dialga and Palkia and Giratina.

"Two beings of time and space set free from the Original One."

"Three beings were born to bind time and space."

It is explicitly stated that the plates are responsible for the powers of Pokemon.

"The powers of Plates are shared among Pokémon."

For the record, these are all engravements on the plates themselves.
Click to expand...
Here it is for everyone who missed it. Over 200 hundred comments... xD
 
^Ive included that in the OP actually so others can see them without having to swim through an ocean of replies.
 
Kk hopefully we've all calmed down from before and can pick things up more calmly.

Btw just to let you know I don't mean any disrespect to anyone here. Not to Matt, not to Ever, not to anyone and I'm sorry if it appeared that way. I was only trying to respectfully disagree with said points without trying to heatedly stir things up.
 
Umm, Kukui, people don't need to calm down for this. I believe everyone was rather respectful.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
No, I just question his powers. Hard to buy he has 100% control over concepts when feats show the contrary. In fact, what says he invented the concepts? For all we know, he could just have created embodiments for already existing concepts that just didn't exist on the physical level.
Click to expand...
It is stated directly in the games that he gave rise to time and space:

"From itself, two beings the Original"
"One did make."
"Time started to spin."
"Space began to expand."


"Two beings of time and space set free from the Original One."


"Hmm... The spirit came to be, and from it, time and space were born..."
"That seems to point to Legendary Dialga, the Pokémon of time, and Palkia, the Pokémon of space..."
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Sinnoh_myths
 
The real cal howard said:
Umm, Kukui, people don't need to calm down for this. I believe everyone was rather respectful.
Click to expand...
Oh, well kk. I just wantef to try and keep things from going out of control.
 
Anyways moving on, I still don't agree with the reasons why we can't accept this. The only things I see being repeatedly brought up are "he hasnt shown it so he can't have it" and "he doesnt have 100% control over the concepts" and we've given counterpoints to every bit of that and they still have yet to be addressed. Now i'd understand why some of us wouldnt agree of this....except...if they had other points to be used here as well.
 
@Crop. Don't take this the wrong way, and with all due respect but could you please leave a meaningful comment instead of a "for reasons above?" This isn't a vs thread, and we need intelligent comments rather than the same meatless comments by the same guy.
 
Finally, why are people saying showings to the contrary. There's a showing, and same logic puts Arceus at 8-A for not being able to subjugate Pikachu.
 
@The real cal howard

Now you're taking our statements completely out of context.

As we've stated so many times before, if Arceus really had total control over time, space, and antimatter, then Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina would not have been able to stand against him since they are those concepts, and he would thus have dominion over their wills.

Using Pikachu as an example is not helping your case.
 
Dialga and Palkia have absolute control over their concepts, these 2 are only an extension of Arceus's power, so the idea of having less power than yours is absurd.

Also the only argument I see is about an incoherent movie that not even if it is canon to the history of the main anime, which is only a secondary canon ...
 
The example is flawed because there's so many analogies with that. For example, any religion with theism would say that humans were created with free will. Just because Satan stood up to God doesn't mean that God doesn't have absolute control. Same with replacing Satan with Zeed. Again, you're claiming that Arceus is a Zeno level opponent because he didn't use any hax. If he was as pissed as you said, how come he didn't just teleport the earth into the sun? Heck, lets not use Arceus and use Mewtwo. He was bloodlusted. Is he not tier 6 for not going all DBZ on the planet? Celebi was scared for its life. How come Celebi don't just kill the Pokémon Hunter as a baby? You're using the hax version of the AoE fallacy.
 
What cal said about Arceus having concept manip of types and what they directly encompass seems reasonable. I don't agree with anything beyond this.

Also the moment Arceus gave the pokemon their mind and their own identity he also gave them their free will. He did not seize control of them because he didn't want to take a step back. (Once all life was arceus as stated in the myth, so this must have happened at one point)

once my pc is back to working I can give more elaborate reasoning
 
Ugh this is going nowhere and I guess I can't just focus on Digimon Revisions alone.... Let me say this...

Arceus created said concepts. And thus he utilizes said elements. No more, no less. What Cal is describing is Transmutation, not CM. Arceus has Conceptual Manipulation and we all agree to that. Now the question is how strong is it. That is what you all need to determine. Simple as that. Can you guys please focus on that instead of derailing this to something else?

Also how about you guys quote all of Arceus' dex descriptions and lore from the main series, Ranger, Conquest and Mystery Dungeon.
 
About the 6 cm he already has I can say the following.

He created those 6 concepts from scratch, creating and calibrating all aspects of it. Therefore he has control over all aspects and the structure of the concepts themselves.
 
@DaFritzi

Except for the fact that he has no actual feats of manipulating any of them afterwards.
 
Cal pretty much covered the last part. Palkia's space powers are listed under Dragon Type (Spatial Rend), a type concept Arceus did not have for almost the whole movie. Besides, this is a PIS scene as well since Palkia basically did this to give Dialga a chance to time dump Ash and the others into the past to give the Jewel of Life back to Arceus. Otherwise Arceus would have been constantly homing in on them and they wouldnt have been able to calm down Arceus in the past with Dialga never getting a chance to time dump them. Especially since later on, Palkia puts Arceus again in a space containment field and Arceus shrugged it and Palkia off with a mere stretch.

As a matter of fact, thats another reason why Arceus wouldnt have manipulated their concepts during the fight. Ash and the gang going back in time is a specific and required point in the plot no matter what we decide on and if Dialga's time concept was shut down, then they would literally have no other way of going back in time to do anything. That would shut down the whole point of them being in the story.
 
Question time, Repp. How many tier 2s actually have feats instead of statements? Asriel? Lavos? No. Aren't most of Digimon hax and power in general just statements? You're really using double standards.

Sorry. That was mean. I had to let off some steam.
 
I agree with Dragon completely he make a very good point. All I really wanted was to argue for Arceus getting the concepts of the types and maybe anything that goes along with them. Nothing more than that, which is why I said to ignore my other suggestions and go back to whats originally suggested.
 
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