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In games not only is said to have created everything but also gave shape. It seems reasonable to me that he maintains his manipulation.
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Arceus Hax Upgrade
- Thread starter ProfessorKukui4Life
- Start date
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In games not only is said to have created everything but also gave shape. It seems reasonable to me that he maintains his manipulation.
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@Dragon. Don't take this as me trying to spite Digimon. Normally when I'm in a debate, I use the verse that they like so they can see the double standard. Mega Man isn't as in the limelight on this site as Digimon so I can't make comparisons to that as I surprisingly don't know it well enough.
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Could we just not. Bringing up Digimon in a Pokemon thread is like bringing up Saint Seiya in a Dragon Ball thread...
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Something else im sort of lost about. Why are we arguing NOT to accept this due to claims of no feats for manipulating the concepts when.....Arceus has never manipulated the 6 concepts he has now, only created them, and yet THAT is somehow acceptable for getting Conceptual Manipulation?
Don't get me wrong. Im not suggesting Arceus shouldnt have it at all. It's just that...if these problems with the ability in general were of any value to start with, then Arceus would never have gotten C.M. in the first place. We were all fine with him getting it through just creating them, yet when the same thing is brought up for other concepts its somehow speculative? I don't understand that. There's nothing making the concepts of the trios and the concepts of types any different. Arceus created both and if anything, he's got more manipulation feats for the type concepts than he does with the other 6. We can't just accept one thing for one specific reason and not accept the other when its cut from the same cloth. It'll likely not only make us look hypocritical, but that we're chosing one thing and not another because its more convinent.
Don't get me wrong. Im not suggesting Arceus shouldnt have it at all. It's just that...if these problems with the ability in general were of any value to start with, then Arceus would never have gotten C.M. in the first place. We were all fine with him getting it through just creating them, yet when the same thing is brought up for other concepts its somehow speculative? I don't understand that. There's nothing making the concepts of the trios and the concepts of types any different. Arceus created both and if anything, he's got more manipulation feats for the type concepts than he does with the other 6. We can't just accept one thing for one specific reason and not accept the other when its cut from the same cloth. It'll likely not only make us look hypocritical, but that we're chosing one thing and not another because its more convinent.
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@Cal howard
To answer your question, A LOT.
Sword of Superman Pre-Crisis was shown merging with the universe and history
Same for Rune King Thor
MegaMan.EXE fought Gospel who was explicitly warping the Cyber World and Real World together.
Omegamo obliterated the universe with All Delete.
Mister Mxyzptlk casually creates space-time continuum and areas that obliterate the laws of physics and reality.
Ben 10 explicitly recreated the universe with Alien X.
Enrico Pucci explicitly accelerated time until the universe's death and rebirth.
Simon the Digger, Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagan, and Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagan all created universes on screen.
Bhunivelze was shown creating a new universe and Lightning killed him.
Every Titan in Saint Seiya is a universe in themselves and are seen directing universes in their attacks.
NEO tore apart the Digital World, converted it into binary, became it, and restored it.
Attacking Ad Hominem is not going to change my stance on this. I hate to be rude, but this sort of argument is total, complete, and utter bullshit.
To answer your question, A LOT.
Sword of Superman Pre-Crisis was shown merging with the universe and history
Same for Rune King Thor
MegaMan.EXE fought Gospel who was explicitly warping the Cyber World and Real World together.
Omegamo obliterated the universe with All Delete.
Mister Mxyzptlk casually creates space-time continuum and areas that obliterate the laws of physics and reality.
Ben 10 explicitly recreated the universe with Alien X.
Enrico Pucci explicitly accelerated time until the universe's death and rebirth.
Simon the Digger, Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagan, and Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagan all created universes on screen.
Bhunivelze was shown creating a new universe and Lightning killed him.
Every Titan in Saint Seiya is a universe in themselves and are seen directing universes in their attacks.
NEO tore apart the Digital World, converted it into binary, became it, and restored it.
Attacking Ad Hominem is not going to change my stance on this. I hate to be rude, but this sort of argument is total, complete, and utter bullshit.
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Okay, I am sorry to interfere with this discussion, but is there are any general consensus for this topic? If not, then it should be settled and not get derailed at the very least.
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@Kukui
You can create something without being able to control it.
Take Kakine Teitoku for instance, whose entire network of clones was overtaken by a single wayward Beetle 05.
There are varying levels of Conceptual Manipulation, and Arceus's may be powerful, but it's far from as absolute as you and Cal are pushing.
You can create something without being able to control it.
Take Kakine Teitoku for instance, whose entire network of clones was overtaken by a single wayward Beetle 05.
There are varying levels of Conceptual Manipulation, and Arceus's may be powerful, but it's far from as absolute as you and Cal are pushing.
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How am I using ad hominem. I haven't insulted you once. Sure, I've been sarcastic, but I've not called you stupid or anything.
For the examples you provided though, none of them would've been possible without a temporal statement or a statement about them doing what they did. You can't calc that. There's a reason EXE is ether 3-A or Low 2-C, and we temporarily downgraded SOS Supes. And Mxy and Alien X would be Low 2-C w/out statements.
For the examples you provided though, none of them would've been possible without a temporal statement or a statement about them doing what they did. You can't calc that. There's a reason EXE is ether 3-A or Low 2-C, and we temporarily downgraded SOS Supes. And Mxy and Alien X would be Low 2-C w/out statements.
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I have half a mind to close this. This has caused so many issues. How about we just drop this thing. Arceus has Elemental Manipulation, simple as that... We knew this since forever. Either that of come up with a consensus otherwise nothing productive will be done...
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@Reppu I don't believe Cal was trying to Ad Hominem you. He may be snarky at times, but I doubt he'd purposely try to insult you.
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@Cal
What are you talking about calcs for? I'm talking about showings. You said that Digimon only has statements rather than showings, and I'm saying that it's far from.
Yes, there are statements explaining it, but we are not making extrapolations that go into powers that Arceus has never showed or at least power-scales to.
When Arceus created everything, there was no clause saying that he has absolute control over everything.
We have never been this generous with any other character I can remember.
What are you talking about calcs for? I'm talking about showings. You said that Digimon only has statements rather than showings, and I'm saying that it's far from.
Yes, there are statements explaining it, but we are not making extrapolations that go into powers that Arceus has never showed or at least power-scales to.
When Arceus created everything, there was no clause saying that he has absolute control over everything.
We have never been this generous with any other character I can remember.
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Im not denying that, but the difference here is that the movie trilogies are literally the only time where Arceus's control over the concepts he made is questionable. Every other instance is perfectly acceptable. And in said anime is full of PIS and illogical occurences. This is the same anime Dialga and Palkia can be calmed by some song from a tower. This is the same anime where Giratina almost dies to a ship. This is the same anime where even Arceus himself can lose to a meteor and a pile of cement. Using PIS to go against everything else is not a good idea and it will bring up a lot of questions that do not make any sense.
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@Kukui
That's your problem. You keep calling PIS on the Arceus vs Creation Trio scene, but at the same time Arceus has never shown the ability to subjugate them as part of his Conceptual Manipulation at all. PIS can't be PIS without showings to the contrary.
That's your problem. You keep calling PIS on the Arceus vs Creation Trio scene, but at the same time Arceus has never shown the ability to subjugate them as part of his Conceptual Manipulation at all. PIS can't be PIS without showings to the contrary.
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The Anime is Secondary Canon. What the games say about Arceus are most inportant. The anime just adds little tidbits such as the plate nullification stuff
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Except the problem is he has. We've literally brought forth scenes and occurences from every other part of the franchise where he tames them perfectly outside of the PIS movie and they keep getting ignored.Reppuzan said:
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I've also watched the entire video. You're using a second of which Arceus head butts the barrier once to literally the rest of the video where they couldn't touch him and Pikachu did more stuff. Think of it like Piccolo being stomped by 3rd form Frieza, yet was able to blindside final form Frieza at 50%. Which one is PIS?
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@Rep
In the pokedex it is directly affirmed that it gave shape to the world, not only that I believe it.
Clearly shaping something requires manipulation.
P.D World = Universe/Multiverse
In the pokedex it is directly affirmed that it gave shape to the world, not only that I believe it.
Clearly shaping something requires manipulation.
P.D World = Universe/Multiverse
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Oh wait he did stop them on the anime. Dunno about the episode number tho..@Reppu
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Episode number? Arceus has only appeared in the Jewel of Life and Clash of Ages, nowhere else.Dragonmasterxyz said:
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Speaking of Clash of Ages, Arceus instantly bends every legendary in it to his will with just a look.
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Looking at Bulbapedia, it just seems like the Legendaries followed him, nothing about bending them to his will.
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Kk. I can bring up multiple occurences.Reppuzan said:
-In the Sinjoh Ruins when he creates them (both manga and games). They didnt try to attack him and even in the manga (which we do accept) he uses them to attack everyone after Team Rockets attempt to force him into making them. After the fight he directs them to go back to their own realms and he then goes off on his own.
-The red chain which contains the original powers and some of Arceus's essence (all 3, manga games and anime). It can completely control Dialga, Palkia and the lake trio and their powers without rebeling at all.
-The lake trio in all canons being given the explicit and specific ability by Arceus to control and bind Dialga and Palkia.
-In the Hoopa movie as soon as Arceus appears to everyone in the end, Dialga, Palkia and Giratina and every other legendary Hoopa summoned stands by him and don't do anything else.
-In mystery dungeon when Dialga's powers go out of whack in the post-game, Arceus is able to completely stop it like it was nothing at all.
And the most easiest and common occurence: When he uses them to literally make the multiverse as soon as they are born.
These are, to my knowledge, all the occurences where he can control and stop them without a single thing they can do to stop it outside the movie. The problems with suggesting he can't completely rule them:
1.) If he couldnt control them completely, why would they do what they say in the Sinjoh Ruins? They surely wouldnt offer to be enslaved by a 10 year old child or have the intention of destroying anything right after their creation. If anything they would have just left and done their own thing or just attacked Arceus without him being able to stop it.
2.) If he couldnt control them, the red chain wouldnt have been enough for Team Galactic to use them for their purposes. Or the red chain would have been useless and Team Galactic would never want it in the first place if it couldnt control them.
3.) Same thing as 2. The Lake Trio wouldnt be able to bind them if their creator could not as they get that speciifc capability from Arceus. They wouldnt have been able to stop them from resetting the universe or send them back to their dimensions and Team Galactic wouldnt have wasted time going after them for the whole game anyway.
4.) If he couldnt control them, why would they stand by him the moment Arceus showed himself? Logically they would be pissed for Hoopa enslaving them as puppets for the whole fight and they would have gone on a violent rampage, against Arceus included.
5.) If he couldnt control them, Arceus wouldnt have been able to stop Dialga's powers in the post-game from going out of whack.
6.) If he couldnt control them, why didnt they just attack Arceus at the end of Jewel of Life? He had been spanking them the whole time, getting brutally beaten and right as he stopped they would have the perfect opportunity to get back at him for the beating they received.
And as a bonus,
If he couldnt control them completely, why did they even do what he asked and create the multiverse? They would have just said F*** you to Arceus and went to do their own thing, especially Giratina who received the short end of the stick and literally got banished.
These are all occurences where he controls them without question. All except in the movie which has a lot of PIS and if anything, suggesting he can't control them when he was limited in the movie is not a good argument. He was incomplete and bloodlusted, so of course he'd lose control if possible at all. It wouldnt mean a thing when he's actually complete and fully capable of taking control.
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Weren't the legendaries trying to kill each other?
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Yeah. It was Hoopa Confine's team of Legendaries vs Hoopa Unbounds team of legendaries.The real cal howard said:
And another thing, how can we accept Hoopa controlling them completely but not Arceus their creator? Are we going to say he has better control than Arceus now?
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Arceus' rings appeares in the DP anime. It stopped Dialga and Palkia from destroying and remaking the universe. It is the same episode those energy forms of Dialga and Palkia appeared.
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It always seemed to me that those who made the movie about arceus had no idea about his capabilities, like at all. As a result this movie is PIS ridden to a degree that insults everyone that read the creation myth (which since it comes from the games is primary canon).
btw respect Kukui for finding that many instances of Arceus controlling them. I agree with dragon and you, Arceus should be able to control them.
btw respect Kukui for finding that many instances of Arceus controlling them. I agree with dragon and you, Arceus should be able to control them.
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Thank you and I agree as well. I understand we can't just stamp "PIS!" "PIS!" "PIS!" on every little thing and thats not my intention, but suggesting Arceus can't completely control the trio's concepts when litterally every other instance, outside a movie whacked with PIS and non-sensible occurences, in the entire franchise has him controlling them completely in some way,shape or form is ridiculous.
It shouldnt be an argument against this at all at this point, especially when it has nothing to do with the suggestions. Not being able to control their concepts =/= not being able to control the type concepts.
It shouldnt be an argument against this at all at this point, especially when it has nothing to do with the suggestions. Not being able to control their concepts =/= not being able to control the type concepts.
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Since this thread has become ridiculously long, would someone be so kind as to tell me the changes that are currently being proposed?
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No problem. The suggested changes are to Arceus's Conceptual Manipulation. Im proposing we add more concepts to Arceus's list with the other 6 he has already. The concept of Pokemon Types for the reasons listed in the OP. If accepted, Arceus would be getting concepts of the pokemon elements like Psychic and Dark due to those reasons.Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
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Well, Arceus did create those concepts, so it should be fine, but he would logically only be able to manipulate them when they are similar to the way they function in the Pokeverse. Unless there is something that suggests this isn't the case.
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Arceus' conceptual stuff is being questioned because he didn't instantly subjugate the trio in Jewel of Life.
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Jewel of Life is almost entirely a series of PIS events (Arceus trapped by silver water, Arceus wrecked by meteor, Arceus almost ******* dies, etc.), especially given the drastic difference to how Arceus is portrayed in pretty much every other form of Pokemon media.
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@The real cal howard
I only questioned your idea that Arceus's control is absolute. He certainly has control over the concepts of Time, Space, Antimatter, Emotion, Willpower, and Intelligence, but he has never shown the ability to suddenly strip them away or otherwise manipulate them outside of the usual stuff.
In addition, you and Kukui were going into ridiculous extrapolation, saying that he could control the concepts of damage, typing, and stats.
I only questioned your idea that Arceus's control is absolute. He certainly has control over the concepts of Time, Space, Antimatter, Emotion, Willpower, and Intelligence, but he has never shown the ability to suddenly strip them away or otherwise manipulate them outside of the usual stuff.
In addition, you and Kukui were going into ridiculous extrapolation, saying that he could control the concepts of damage, typing, and stats.
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Exactly. We've pointed out every possible reason, PIS, and illogical occurence to why Arceus didnt instantly subjugate them in the movie, especially since he has subjugated them in every other part of the franchise except here in a PIS movie.
I've also pointed out how even if this was the case, it wouldnt disprove him being able to have the concepts of the types due to how completely different they are from the 6 concepts the trio's have seeing how Arceus rules the types via his plates better than anyone in every part of the franchise and other reasons.
I've also pointed out how even if this was the case, it wouldnt disprove him being able to have the concepts of the types due to how completely different they are from the 6 concepts the trio's have seeing how Arceus rules the types via his plates better than anyone in every part of the franchise and other reasons.
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Cal has nothing to do with this for one, it was all me. Cal himself even agreed it was a huge no, especially on stats. And I said to everyone never mind and forget it as I myself realized how vague and ludicris they are.Reppuzan said:
The only thing I stand by is the concepts of typing for literally all the reasons listed here and in the OP itself.
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Arceus should logically have a degree of control over all these typings. This does not mean his control is close to absolute over anything not his creation, but he should still possess some power over it.
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I never wanted absolute control. It completely NLF to say that anyone has absolute control or absolute resistance or etc.
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- #280
I don't remember claiming him to have absolute control either. I completely side with cal on absolute control or absolute anything being massive NLF unless your tier 0.
I don't even see what it has to do with this discussion. Whether his control is absolute or crap. Instead, maybe we should substitute with highest? Im pretty sure we can agree his C.M. is the highest in the pokeverse but not absolute compared to other verses. Right?
I don't even see what it has to do with this discussion. Whether his control is absolute or crap. Instead, maybe we should substitute with highest? Im pretty sure we can agree his C.M. is the highest in the pokeverse but not absolute compared to other verses. Right?
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