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Arceus Hax Upgrade

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I mean, yes? That should probably be a given. Wasn't even PIS anime Arceus capable of just flat out negating any attacks of specific types from the plates?
 
@Azathoth

Yeah. Pretty much in all the canons he manipulates the concepts of the types even more than the 6 from the 2 trios. Even PIS Arceus made the Jewel of Life out of 5 type concepts.
 
Sorry to be in a rush but we've been at this for days now and we're reaching almost 400 replies I think.

If you agree to them Azzy is it safe to add them now?
 
I don't think we can or should go off of names even when translated (otherwise Gogeta is a Low 2-C because of the Big Bang Kamehameha). Plus, Evil is a very vast concept and the Dark Type is depicted more as specifically darkness. So its better to go with that.
 
Well, most Dark type moves represent more vile attitudes or actions than literal darkness:

Malicious Moonsault, Fake Tears, Foul Play, Taunt, Nasty Plot, Brutal Swing, Dark Pulse, Thief, Snatch, Embargo, Flatter, Punishment, etc...
 
Maybe, but giving Arceus such a vast concept where pretty much everyone is apart of because of a type is going to lead to problems. And im sure you know we've had to have a thread with nearly 400 replies to discuss whether he should even get something like Darkness at all. At this point, we should only take what we can get. Going beyond is just going to cause more issues like why I said to drop my sugggestions because they go too much into this.
 
@Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot: As I mentioned in my previous reply here shaping the physical and/or spiritual world from nothing or being the first to create something shouldn't imply creation of concepts or influence on the abstract plane.

"Nothing" can not simply be assumed to include the abstract level, especially since concepts really are very independent from the world.

(to compare it to a law of nature: If you create a universe from nothing, do you really have to create the law of gravity or is already there and just shows itself only once you create matter?)


So while manipulating and creating physical stuff pf types is right, I don't see anything suggesting abstract level of operation.
 
@DT

For the more material stuff like space and time, I can see where you're coming from, but it also pretty expressly created things like knowledge, willpower, and emotion, which aren't physical things and are treated as more abstract. All of these are said multiple times to have sprung from Arceus and not existed without him.

For instance, Arceus creating emotion gave things the capacity to even have emotion. It wasn't something that existed prior in any sense.
 
Exactly. The same thing would go for the types. If we're accepting Time, Space, Antimatter and the other 3, then the type concepts are no different.

Also wouldn't giving type and the potential to use Elemental moves to abstracts like the creation and lake trios be abstract level right there?
 
Im curious on the original translation of Dark type, I mean, It wouldnt be the first time names are changed because its directed to a young audience (Im looking at you, Black Magician). So if Dark Type turns out to be Evil Type in Japanese, I'd go with the latter, i mean, in other verses we do that, right?
 
@Azathoth:

Well, for once this isn't about knowledge, willpower and emotion, but about the types, which are very much physical things.

The type of a pkmn is just a physical property and the things the types are, like fire, are physical things.


That aside wether knowledge, willpower or emotion is abstract is questionable.

For example if you learn you gain knowledge and there is different knowledge in the world. Like knowledge about trees or knowledge about math.

Essentially, while knowledge is intangible, is it really abstract?

Knowledge, willpower and emotion are things people have and different people have different instances of them. (if we want to argue in terms of biology they are only certain configurations of our brain)

Or let me say it differently: If I have a universe only inhibited by robots, then in this universe no emotions exist. If I now use some kind of empathy manipulation to make a robot feel sad, is this creating the concept of emotion?

I don't think so, it is just modifying a physical being into giving them emotion and by that creating the first (and by that every) instance of emotion, which can be said to be creating emotions.


Or if I have the ability to make stones sentient (and in that giving them emotion, knowledge and willpower) in a universe in which except for me no living being exist, that is per default a form of conceptual manipulation?

Can I really conclude that it was priorly impossible to feel something, just because practically no being had the capability of feeling something, because they didn't have the right nature?


I think in regards to conceptual creation a good question to ask is "Did it create x or did it create the possibility of creating x". The former is just the ability to create x, while the latter is creating the concept of x.
 
I believe you are overthinking it @DontTalk. Arceus is stated to have created them.

@All it seems "Aku taipu" (Dark type) literally means "Evil Type", so... Evil manipulation for Arceus?
 
Well that depends.

For the robot example, is it the first universe be, well, created? Or is it just one out of many other ones? If the latter then ofc the concepts were created already while in the former it is not for that is the first universe ever made. It would be like giving someone the concept of time for making a universe with time after other universes with time were made already. As for emotions, if its only a universe with robots, meaning no concept of emotion, who would be able to create and apply the concept when they dont have the capability. Your example implies someone with emotion exists there in order to apply emotion to the robots.

Same thing for the stone example me thinks.
 
The original translation for Dark Type is "Evil Type"

ÒüéÒüÅÒé┐ÒéñÒâù

"Aku Taipu"

"Evil Type"
 
I feel ignored now, given that in my very first reply I talked about how dark type is actually evil type and the Ghost type is the one dealing with darkness and the immaterial. ovo
 
@DT

The notion of whether it is abstract in a void is irrelevant, for, as you mentioned before, we can go back to the whole chemical configurations argument, while this is not a universe that abides by that.

In this case, something like emotion is not caused by the interaction of different chemicals to create different responses from us (well, to be exact, it is caused by that, but that interaction is not its progenitor), but is instead something that is intertwined with existence itself, and is real in the same sense something like space is.

In the case of you using empathy manipulation to grant a robot the feeling of sadness, a drastic difference here is that you already have an established idea of what the emotion you are giving it actually is, and this idea comes from example. There have been instances of this emotion before, therefore you are not its progenitor.

In this case, there is an original being, and there has been nothing before it. There are no examples of any emotions to this point, and there is nowhere for it to draw this inspiration from. There is only this being and this being is all. This being then proceeds to create emotion. It is not creating emotion for anything in particular at a certain time. It is allowing there to be a possibility for anything to have emotion in the future. If Arceus did not create Uxie, who is Mesprit, who is emotion incarnate, but created everything else the same, there would not be the possibility for sentient beings to experience emotion.

I fail to see how this is not most logically creation of emotion as a concept.
 
PaChi2 said:
@All it seems "Aku taipu" (Dark type) literally means "Evil Type", so... Evil manipulation for Arceus?
Click to expand...
Really? Whoa......well here's the problem. How well would this work?

Assuming were still on the matter of concepts, almost everyone is within the concept of evil, so if Arceus controls it to bind his opponents, would he win just like that?
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
This is pretty interesting.

About Dark Type, we must remember that in the japanese version of the game, is literally "evil type", as in malicious intent. That's why most of it's moves deal with treachery and the like. Based on this, Absol comes to mind, as his predictions on disasters are treated as being his own evil doing.

Normal I would attribute it more to the physical and material, against ghost type who is more spiritual and immaterial. Notice how Ghost Type is the one dealing with shadows and it's manipulation as oppose to Dark.

Edit: Which is funny, as Fairies and Psychics in pokémon are the ones manipulating Light.
Click to expand...
 
@Kukui

I do not think it works this way, otherwise Lucemon would have easily won against all 2-C.

(It is also true that the battle royal is not over...)

Although I don't know much about Lucemon, so I better shut up...
 
Another thing I'd like to point out is the fact that "Arceus takes away his target's emotions/willpower" appears on a lot of threads. He hasn't ever actually done that though, has he?
 
Well Rep again Conceptual Manipulation in general is never really used by anyone who has it due to how strong it is, so going off of whether they have done it or not shouldnt be the case (and given all of Arceus's showings, him NOT doing it would be due to obvious PIS or else he'd be unstoppable when nothing calls for it).

Besides which, he has completely controlled the trio's before, making them into mindless puppets (even Hoopa did this) and the red chain is a thing which makes them not able to rebel against his power in any way, shape or form. Im certain that calls for taking away a victims will or emotion or highly suggests this at the least. Like Azzy said theres no reason he cannot have at least decent control over those concepts.
 
@Kukui

But if it's not in character for him to do this, then it shouldn't be a thread element.
 
@Rep

Not in character? One of Arceus's primary uses of fighting is using the power of the plates. And if he wasnt willing to ever use them he wouldnt have created the concepts in the first place.

Besides im pretty sure bloodlust battles and Standard Battle Assumptions could make up for it.
 
These Arceus threads are borderline ridiculous. It's like we're inventing new powers for Arceus to have every week which he never even uses.

Also Repp is right.
 
Energy Manipulation, Elemental Manipulation, Flight, Power Nullification, Regeneraion (Low).

Guess that's the extent of Arceus' powers since that's all we ever see him do in the 1 appearance of him being an a**hole plus the games.
 
Well the power of the type plates are certainly powers he's used before in literally every part of the Franchise he's in. It's not the same thing as other times, which part of the time they do not get accepted. I fail to see what makes this time the same.
 
If youre a Pokémon and you're not playable in Smash, odds are you don't likely have a character. So that argument doesn't work. I can count on my fingers how many Pokémon have character and Arceus is not one of them.
 
@LordAizenSama

With all due respect, why not address the points in those "ridiculous" threads instead of just insulting them?

Now, this thread in particular has been showing scans, links and responding to every rebuttal which only have used the same argument over and over. "He hasn't use them".
 
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