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Arceus Hax Upgrade

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Not exactly. He started attacking them the moment they started protecting Ash and the others. Arceus particually did not care about them at all until they joined in. Besides, whether pissed or not why would Arceus need to manipulate entire concepts to beat 3 beings fodder to him regardles if he's complete or weakened? Remember, having an ability doesnt mean you always need to use it.

And as for the will part:

-The red chain can control them and they are parts of Arceus's essence

-The lake trio can explicity and completely control them and they got that capability from Arceus when he made them.

-IIRC, when he got back his true power the Creation trio immeidately started obeying him in the movie. They only rebeled when he was limited in power.
 
Lephyr's right. Literally every "Arceus vs" scene in that was PIS. While technically Arceus got feats of stomping the creation trio, the fact that they weren't one shotted is PIS, as much as Pikachu drawing Arceus' attention was. Recall that this is the same movie series that Giratina nearly died to a ship.
 
Same movie that almost killed him with a meteor. Same movie that almost killed him with cement. Same movie that introduces the jewel in the future, just so Ash finds it and gives it to him in the past, so finding it in the future was completely pointless. And even with that, he kept fighting. The whole movie is PiS.
 
Speaking of the Pikachu thing, why is it listed in Arceus's weakness that Pikachu can momentarily hold him off? That was completely PIS on the movie's end.
 
@Kukui

Why wouldn't he? He's a bloodlusted god. If it gets his problem finished quicker, why not?

They rebelled to defend humanity. Once he calmed down, they followed him since they had no reason to stick around. It wasn't out of any sort of hierarchical loyalty, since Arceus explicitly states, "Are you siding with the humans?!"

You can't use one or two events to call the rest PIS. That's like saying, "Goku got shot in the chest by a ray gun, therefore the rest of his feats in the movie are PIS".

Yes, Arceus is clearly above any of the Creation Trio. However, the Creation Trio was clearly struggling against him and staggering under his attacks. It's not like they were going blow for blow with him. He was stomping them thoroughly, they just didn't die in one hit.
 
@Reppuzan

You can't use an event from a movie filled with PiS from start to finish and ignore the other instances where the argument (him controlling the trio) is supported. And again, if he did that in the movie, there would be no story. Same reason he didn't just bust the planet and let Dialga take the heroes to the past.

Edit: And that analogy doesn't work because we know that if they lower their ki, they can be hurted from even a rock.
 
@Rep

Maybe but the problem here is how would that be quicker?

In one case you'd have to go through the trouble of manipulating a whole concept to gain the upper hand and then stomp. In another case all you need to do is launch an OP attack and stomp.

In additon, the issue with the Goku example is he has feats that are consistently and blatently superior to getting shot with a ray gun, which I thought we accepted as him being off guard and not having ki up instead of PIS. There shouldnt be a reason to call his other consistent showings PIS based off of a one time plot based thing, just like there shouldnt be a reason for Arceus to not one shot them down and call it anything but PIS. The creation trio were basically shields for humanity so they were important to the plot. They needed to take everything Arceus threw at them just so Ash and the others could get the job done, otherwise there wouldnt be any story. Arceus would finish them off instantly and then destroy humanity, making the whole movie pointless.
 
@Lephyr

Then I guess we can't use any feat from the anime or manga at all since it's all PIS riden (i.e. Arceus was captured and controlled by Team Rocket, therefore all other feats in the manga are utterly invalid).

Heck, the games have their own share of PIS (how did Brandon capture the Regis even though they're powerful enough to restrain a Pokemon powerful enough to shift continents). I guess we discount the games too.
 
@Kukui

You're joking. If Arceus was able to use his hierarchic authority to make the Creation Trio stand aside and let him kill everything, then it would have not only saved him the trouble of fighting them, but he could have also made them reduce the surrounding area to waste with their powers. It would have made his life easier.

One instance of PIS does not make all other incidents in a series invalid, otherwise we'd discount every feat in all of fiction.
 
@Reppuzan

"Ignore the other instances where the argument (him controlling the trio) is supported."

And that analogy ignores every other supporting fact. Oh, and yes, Team Rocket controlling Arceus is PiS.
 
Oh I didnt mean it like that, I meant how would it be quicker to go through manipulating a whole concept TO stomp someone when the same thing could be done in one OP attack? Like, why should Arceus need to manipulate the concept of time to stomp Dialga when a simple Judgement could do the same thing. It wasnt about the hierarchic authority thing.
 
@Kukui

If he had absolute control over Time, Space, and Antimatter, he would not have needed to fight any of them in the first place and he would have been free to kill everything.

The fact that he doesn't is saying something about their autonomy and Arceus's level of control.
 
@Reppuzan

Except we have other instances where him controlling the trio is more than a possibility. Sinjoh Ruins, Red Chain, Lake Trio. Yet you are dismissing all of them based on a PiS scene from a PiS filled movie. Again... If he controlled them, there would've been no movie. He should control them, it's been shown you can control them (by lesser beings, none the less), and yet the most powerful being of the verse who also created them can't? Sure.
 
Thats pretty much why we are arguing its PIS as there wouldnt be any point or plot, plus I still dont see how he needs to control a concept to stomp when he can just attack normally and do the samet thing.

Also as for the Team Rocket scenerio, didnt they only temporarily catch Arceus when he was totally plate-less? And he was pretty much using them to get the plates back for him when at the Ruins.
 
@Kukui

I don't see why it's so hard to understand. If Arceus was able to control all concepts at will, as a bloodlusted god, he would have resorted to his single strongest ability in order to get everything over with. That's literally the definition of what bloodlusted characters do.

If you want to prove it's not PIS, then provide hard evidence that the Creation Trio is subservient to Arceus. The burden of proof falls upon the accuser. If you want to make these changes, then do the research.
 
@Rep

Here you go. Red chain created artificially and red chain created from the Lake Trio controlled Dialga and Palkia. Arceus created the Lake Trio, and a human managed to replicate their effect over Dialga and Palkia. Yet Arceus couldn't in the movie.
 
Before I start, I'm not being rude to you, am I? Not my intent.

Anyway, so I guess Arceus can't reality warp now, given that he didn't bust that out.
 
The red chain isnt even needed really. Arceus specifically gave the Lake Trio the power to control Dialga and Palkia so he himself should be able to do so just because of this very fact.
 
And the funny thing about all this is......even if, we say, Arceus can't completely control those 6 concepts.....

How does that mean he can't completely control the type concepts when he has more feats pertaining to them than the other 6 he only created?
 
I mean, I don't have that much knowledge of the Pokemon lore, but the Creator should technically have all the abilities of its creations, so it isn't that far-fetched to say he possess the power of the Creation Trio, from my limited knowledge.
 
@Vegan

This thread isn't about that it's about having the concepts of Pokemon types for the reasons brought forth added to Arceus's arsenal of concepts like Time and Space.

@Cropfist

No disrespect to you or Rep in any way at all but I don't see what's left to disagree about. We countered pretty much everything and there's no reason why Arceus can have the 6 concepts for one reason but not the other ones for the exact same thing.
 
@Reppu I wouldn't go so far as to question Arceus' power over the 6 concepts we know he created. He's never used them in combat because well, he never had to. Or PIS. Most characters with Conceptual Manipulation has never really used it.. Heck to be fair Lucemon has never used his control over the concepts of Good and Evil on anyone, but we know he controls said concept.
 
Pretty much what I am saying is that Arceus 6 main concepts are good, yet this new stuff seems sketchy imo.
 
I can understand why you'd think this would be sketchy, I do. But for the moment so far there hasn't been really anything to suggest otherwise about the type concepts. Heck with what Cal found about the plates ingraving the creation of everything (before and after the multiverse's birth) and the plates being literally stated to have been responsible for the powers of pokemon, that would solify it. Im still surprised I didn't find that first....
 
ProfessorKukui4Life wrote: @Magi

Cal already explained verse equalization for pokemon types doesn't work like that.

I technically said already agree w/ that quote.
 
I think that Dialga and Palkia should also have Conceptual Manipulation, just wanting the material became what it is, and Helio planned to use its power to eliminate the spirit and the emotions as aspects of reality...

"Later, when Diamond and Pearl go through with their assault on Dialga and Palkia, Cyrus attacks them while under the cover of a thick black haze. He reveals the reason for why he tried to make a new world; while Emotion, Knowledge, and Willpower make up a complete world, the world they live always has one that is lacking compared to the other two and as such, Cyrus aims to create a world without any of these aspects, a world that is perfect."
 
Oh, sorry about that then.

Well, what do you think about the suggestion of concepts I put a few replies up? No one has responded to that yet.
 
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