Arceus Hax Upgrade

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Kk im home.

Now of course im aware that Arceus created those concepts in which later brought about the multiverse, which then does its own stuff like what Groudon/Kyogre are doing. Please correct me if this isn't what your saying but my issue about this is that I don't see what makes the concepts of types and the 6 concepts Arceus made any different. Like those 6, the concepts of the types (as far as I know) existed before the creation of the multiverse. It wasnt as if the multiverse was made and then when the elements in said multiverse came the types for pokemon were formed. In fact, if the types were made when the multiverse was made that would still be creating those concepts but thats beside the point.

In addition, the plates where Arceus's elemental prowse come from are specific parts of him and they also existed before the multiverse, in which would mean the concept of types would exist from the plates. Even if we ignore all this, the creation and lake trio's were given their types at the time they were created so the concept of type had to have existed before the trio's were even born. If im understanding this correctly.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

MugenRyu wrote: Pokemon's definiton on dragon Is very questionable...

I see what you mean there, lol.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

LordXcano wrote: You can't "verse equalize" Pokemon types. A Pikachu isn't gonna be super effective against Lapis Lazuli because she's a "water type".

Just tell me, how in the world are you gonna "verse equalize" Pokemon Earth/Ground being weak against water, yet at the same time have Naruto Earth/Gound attacks.....

Shrugs Its very complicated why that would be the case but I do agree with you.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Magi

Cal already explained verse equalization for pokemon types doesn't work like that.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Anyways, since most of us are okay with the suggestions, I'll continue with the concept brain-storming. 2 things.

-Is the concept of, well, stats even a thing? Because a ridiculous amount of types have stat manipulation in its boundaries and im not talking about game mechanic stats, I mean stats like a AP, speed, durability etc being affected.

-Not claiming this but are there any moves that are classified as casuality manipulation? Just wondering since we have pokemon here who have it.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Kukui

You still haven't answered my question. Has Arceus done any of the things you've mentioned other than what's already on his profile. Otherwise this is pointless and baseless speculation.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Kukui
You still haven't answered my question. Has Arceus done any of the things you've mentioned other than what's already on his profile. Otherwise this is pointless and baseless speculation.

I did already. Its up in the wave of replies.

Do you want me to just repost it again?

 

[Reppuzan]

@Kukui

If Arceus hasn't done it (and I don't recall a single instance of Arceus manipulating the capabilities of other characters) then we certainly can't say he can. If you can show me an instance of him nullifying something like Swords Dance or Agility or making his foes utterly powerless, then I'd be more inclined to believe it.

I don't recall a single move that manipulates the laws of cause and effect.

Also, the difference between accepting his control over space, time, and anti-matter is the fact that we know he created them through the lore and the event at the Sinjoh Ruins. Even then he doesn't have absolute control over them, as Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina were able to rebel against him despite being the physical embodiment of their respective concepts.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Wait, what do you mean when you ask about manipulating others? Arent we talking about the type concepts?

And kk. All I needed to know as I wasnt sure if there was a move like that.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Kukui

Your whole argument hinges on Arceus creating and therefore controlling the concepts he created.

However, not only has he not shown to actively use this in combat, he has not shown total control over the concepts we know he created (i.e. Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina, who were all able to rise up and defend the humans from Arceus's wrath).

So ultimately, I find the whole creator god argument to be farfetched, given his lack of showings.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Reppuzan

With all due respect, I don't see how that makes the 6 concepts we accepted and the concepts up to discussion here different.

The concepts of type, based on the info and reasons i've brought forth, would be created by Arceus as well through the very same lore we use to accept him making the 6 concepts like Time and Space. So far I havent seen anything to suggest Arceus didnt create the concept of Pokemon types when everything pointed out points in his direction. Plus for the Sinjoh Ruins doesnt Arceus require the type plates anyway?

Furthermore, I also don't believe those 3 being able to rebel against him is a counter against this as Arceus was in his incomplete form at the time and was bloodlusted into stomping anything he came across. Not to mention, its not like he needs to manipulate a whole concept to stomp those fodder to him, incomplete or complete. So that shouldnt suggest he can't control a whole concept when in a scenerio where he doesnt need to at all. And wouldnt it be PIS anyway? Besides, what does it matter if he hasnt used them in combat? To my understanding Arceus certainly never manipulated the concepts of Time, Space, Antimatter, Emotion, WIllpower or Knowledge in any fight, yet creating them alone is efficient enough to be given Conceptual Manipulation here. That's the reason why he has it in the first place. He has C.M. for not just simply manipulating them but creating them (though I assume we accept him manipulating them too). If creating concepts by itself is enough to be given conceptual manipulation, then him creating the type concepts should be given the same treatment as the 6 concepts he has already due to the exact same reasoning, otherwise we would have to get rid of his conceptual manipulation all together and some of us will surely go against that completely.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I still agree with Kukui on this, @Repp...

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

And honestly, unlike the 6 concepts he has now, its not like he hasn't manipulated or controlled the concept of pokemon types before.

-When creating the 2 trio's, he specifically gave them their typing before even focusing his attention on the multiverse's birth. You know, Dialga's Dragon/Steel typing, or the lake trio's psychic typing.

-When creating the multiverse he would be distrbuting the type concepts so that all pokemon when eventually formed would, you know, get typing. Basically he'd be giving all of the universes and dimensions themselves their elements so that even beings who form on their own would get typing. For example, Deoxys is literally just a virus who formed mysterously in space, yet he still gets the Psychic type. Mew came from an unknown source and he has the dna of literally all pokemon of every type. Heck even fodders like Trubbish, a mutated trash monster and Muk, a goo creature, are given the poison type. Even Clefairy who come from the outer reaches of space in space ships are given the normal/fairy typing.

-Arceus's type plates can be fused together to make the Jewel of Life, which combined with 5 types at once can restore an entire region with life with a mere glow.

-Arceus's plates were used to create Hoopa's Prison Bottle.

-His plates can be used to further boost the power of a pokemons move related to their type.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Btw cal, is it okay if you can look over the other concepts I suggested in a few replies above? They are ones with Life/Death and, if its a thing, stats. Not game mechanic ones, I mean AP, Durability, Speed, etc.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm not convinced on Life and Death. Stats give me a second look, but I doubt that too.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Kk. I do have reasons for the stat one if you'd like to see them, just didnt get a chance to post it yet.

But the Life/Death one can be discussed more if anything.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Kukui

Scans that he distributed all the types? Last I checked, Pokemon were stated to have evolved into their current forms over time on their own. For example, the Alolan Forms were brought on by adaptation, not by Arceus's divine providence.

Just because you're the creator god doesn't mean you automatically have dominion over everything that happens. ZeedMillenniummo was formed despite the watch of the ever benevolent God.

I am firmly against the idea of Arceus manipulating the stats of others. He has not shown this at all to the best of my knowledge. If this were the case, we could say that about literally every other creator god in fiction. This would render Arceus's entire tiering meaningless.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

That much I can agree with on the stats, Repp. Sorry bout that, Kukui. However, evolution and creationism can exist side by side, @Repp. Meowth is naturally normal type, and gained Dark type. Doesn't mean that the Meowth line didn't start off as normal.

 

[Reppuzan]

@The real cal howard

If you want this addition to happen, we need scans. Like Digimon, Pokemon has a ton of conflicting lore, particularly after the advent of the Creation Trio and Arceus. If we don't have explicit statements/showings of Arceus distributing types to everything, then I don't see how we just blindly assume he can do this from vaguely related points that are being over-extrapolated to suit an agenda.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Hmm good point......However I would like to say this and if still is not enough, then i'll drop it.

For manipulating characters stats, would him creating the Creation and Lake trio's suffice? Prior to creating them, he is specifically giving the amount of strength and abilities they can have. To how far they can go to what limit they stop at. Not to mention, the Red Chain can completely control them and their powers due to no pokemon being able to go against the "original powers". Even then, we'd of course would never be shown such an occurence due to Arceus literally being god in Pokemon. Even the creation trio, the absolute only ones in pokemon who have a remote chance of standing against Arceus, got curb stomped without him breaking a sweat. So if even the god tiers couldnt stand a chance, Arceus would never resort to needing to manipulating fodder power to spank them. Not saying speculation can't be a thing though.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Rep

Well if he's creating the multiverse and pokemon evenetually come to be, types would have to be a thing first in each universe in order for them to substiquentally gain it. It wouldnt make sense if it was the other way around. Like if a pikachu was born first before lighting was a thing, then suddenly lightning comes and it makes contact with it to become an electric mouse. In addition, even if that was the case, Arceus would have to distrubute the elements to each universe in order for the universes to even have elements at all. Plus the copied type plates to go along with it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Repp. The plates in the primary canon predate everything sans Arceus himself, including the Creation and Lake trio, given that these are there to record the creation of Dialga and Palkia and Giratina.

"Two beings of time and space set free from the Original One."

"Three beings were born to bind time and space."

It is explicitly stated that the plates are responsible for the powers of Pokemon.

"The powers of Plates are shared among Pokémon."

For the record, these are all engravements on the plates themselves.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Wow......I cannot believe I didnt even think about that.......

Once again Cal outshines me. Got the job yes but outshined me. Or "outcaled" me xD.

 

[Reppuzan]

@The real cal howard

Then what do you plan on doing with this information? Are you suggesting that Arceus has the ability to impose Pokemon types on others or that all other attacks correspond to Pokemon types?

Arceus doesn't change the types of attacks he receives to make his plate's nullification powers work.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Considering how normal Pokemon can do that with moves like Soak, he technically could, but I'm not even suggesting that. And no one has a problem of corresponding attacks to Pokemon types if they can be applied. Look at most of the matches involving the plates in the first place.

He doesn't need to, given that he has the plates needed. Unless you mean when Pikachu attacked him, in which I don't need to explain myself there.

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with Reppuzan.

 

[Reppuzan]

@The real cal howard

Then are we going to believe that Arceus is immune to Mind Manipulation, Reality Warping, Spatial Manipulation, Time Manipulation, Void Manipulation, Death Manipulation, Life Manipulation, Status Effect Inducement, and Conceptual Manipulation with impunity? Since that's the implications of this revision.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

For one, resistance, not immunity. For two, most of your favorite characters have that, so it's not far-fetched. For three, we already have it that the plates nullified some of that stuff, like mind, space, time, death, etc. And for four, I'm saying that he has access to them with the concept of Pokemon elements, which have variants.

 

[Reppuzan]

@The real cal howard

But you can't stamp a Pokemon type on everything. Would you classify the Alpha InForce as Psychic-type? Or Niflheimr Fenriswolf as Flying-type?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Also didnt we say no to Stat inducement? And we didnt decide yet on Life/Death.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I know you can't stamp types on everything. I never said you could. It would be a very obvious NLF if you could.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Cal

Also, how do we deal with things like the Ultimate Nullifier? It interacts with space and time, but it's coming from a machine.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I mean, even without this upgrade, Arceus created the concepts of space and time as opposed to being capable of ending it, so he'd likely have better control...if he were 2-A.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

AlphaInforce has no type due to being casuality manipulation, which so far doesnt fall under a type. So thats safe.

And coming from a machine shouldnt matter given there are pokemon that are partically and purely machine based and use typed moves.

Ex: Metagross, Klank and its evolutions, Magerena, Volcanion, etc.

 

[Reppuzan]

@The real cal howard

One of my major gripes is that he does not have total control. Dialga and Palkia actively fought against him to defend humanity. The spine of your argument seems to assume he does, but he can't even control the impulses of the first three things he created.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@The real cal howard
One of my major gripes is that he does not have total control. Dialga and Palkia actively fought against him to defend humanity. The spine of your argument seems to assume he does, but he can't even control the impulses of the first three things he created.

I think I tried countering this before:

"Furthermore, I also don't believe those 3 being able to rebel against him is a counter against this as Arceus was in his incomplete form at the time and was bloodlusted into stomping anything he came across. Not to mention, its not like he needs to manipulate a whole concept to stomp those fodder to him, incomplete or complete. So that shouldnt suggest he can't control a whole concept when in a scenerio where he doesnt need to at all. And wouldnt it be PIS anyway?"

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Which is PiS, given the Sinjoh Ruins event. If he controlled them in the movie, there would've been no plot, since Arceus won the moment he woke.

Edit: Not only that, but the Red Chain could. Is illogical that a human device (one was created from the lake trio [which give even more of a doubt to Arceus not being capable of controlling Palkia and Dialga], the other chain was artificial) can control them, but Arceus, the one who created them, can't.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Lephyr and Kukui

Arceus was pissed. He wanted them to stand aside to let him destroy everything. If he had that power, he would have used it.

Unless you can provide something to me that states that the Creation Trio is utterly subservient to Arceus's will, then I can't clear this.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Again, PiS. The Sinjoh Ruins event, as well as the plot from Diamond/Pearl/Platinum suggest that he could very well control them. (If an object created from the Lake Trio, whom Arceus created as well, can, he can for sure)

 

[Reppuzan]

@Lephyr

When that movie is literally the only time Arceus is ever seen fighting onscreen outside of the game mechanics of the franchise, it's more than a little bit hard to write it off entirely as PIS.