Arceus Hax Upgrade

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

This is pretty interesting.

About Dark Type, we must remember that in the japanese version of the game, is literally "evil type", as in malicious intent. That's why most of it's moves deal with treachery and the like. Based on this, Absol comes to mind, as his predictions on disasters are treated as being his own evil doing.

Normal I would attribute it more to the physical and material, against ghost type who is more spiritual and immaterial. Notice how Ghost Type is the one dealing with shadows and it's manipulation as oppose to Dark.

Edit: Which is funny, as Fairies and Psychics in pokémon are the ones manipulating Light.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

That's not how verse equalization works for Pokémon, bro. We've been established that at one way. Pikachu wouldn't be super effective on Lapis, but Gaara would be super effective on Pikachu. This has been the case for a long time.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

This sounds very unfair to me in my opinion. We are basically giving all of the verse their weaknesses but not their strength.

 

[LordXcano]

@Cal

So, what's the difference here then? The only thing this would change is Arceus v. Pokemon matchups.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Exactly. Even in pokemon vastly superior AP from one pokemon to another ignores type advantage/disadvantage.

Kyogre is a water type yet an electric or grass attack from fodders wouldnt even tickle him.

Also im confused by the "AP equalization" being a point as thats something we don't do here ever.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Saik. Not-very-effective transfers over to here too. Again, it's why Rayquaza has a win over Frieza. A Meganium would take less damage from electric attacks.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Funny thing is... Gaara would actually be Normal and/or Flying capable of using Ground moves. While he manipulates sand, is not "natural" for him. He got the ability through Shukaku, who does it with magnetism. Magnet Release is speculated to be Wind + Earth chakra.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Xcano. Are you talking about equalization or the OP? Regardless, not true my friend. I'm going to use the same example as above.

Hades' sword is very hax. Arceus has to avoid it. But wait. Arceus controls the concept of steel. So he uses that and his concept of bugs to turn said sword into a pile of insects. (I know Hades likely had something to no-sell that but example's just that. An example.)

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Funny thing is... Gaara would actually be Normal and/or Flying capable of using Ground moves. While he manipulates sand, is not "natural" for him. He got the ability through Shukaku, who does it with magnetism. Magnet Release is speculated to be Wind + Earth chakra.

This^

Gaara may use sand attacks but he himself is a normal superhuman being and is not something like Shukaku whos literally nothing but a chakra sand beast. If anything Shukaku would be the ground type.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Hmm, is there a page in the site explaining the verse equal for Pokémon? Given this recent discussion, if it doesn't exist, it would be wise creating one.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

@Saikou The Lewd King

I wouldn't say it's unfair, it's just how the verse works. It's made perfectly clear that a pokemon's weakness applies even outside battles.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Anyways, what do you guys think of this? I mean the ones who didnt say they agree/disagree/neutral.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

Well, I suppose it makes sense. Pokedex entries did say that Arcues probably existed before the universe did, so it's logical to believe the concept of space, time, matter, and types becomes staples of the Pokemon verse because of him.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Kk so we're getting somewhere now.

Though there is still something on my mind ever since I brought this up that I want to share with you but im not sure if I should for it might be very vague and ridiculous.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Nah, don't think like that, Professor. Is a discussion, after all. Voice your thoughts. I am specially interested. The lore of pokémon is certainly my favorite in any franchise.

 

[Chris_Leo]

You have a good reason, however i think you forgot Arceus's Ultimate abilaty: Nigh-Omnipotence, yes i know it's not acceptable in Vs Battles. Anyway, isn't Victini the embodiment of Victory ?

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

Since we are already discussing, I believe you can share it with us, regardless of the controversy of the topic.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Okay I guess i'll give it a try. No harm done it would seem.

Alright. So you know how in this post we're on the verge of discussing whether or not Pokemon types are concepts Arceus made for the reasons above of course. Assuming we accept the types as concepts for him, Arceus's type plates would be where the concepts of the types are coming from (note not just any replicated plate in the multiverse, I mean Arceus's specifically and his only as they would be the original ones that came before anything else). So in short, if we accept him making the types as concepts, then his own plates, which are the parts of him that give him his type-changing prowse, ARE the concepts of the types themselves.

And since the plates are merely just small parts of his physical avatar, logically, that would suggest Arceus's physical form is...well.....conceptual. So wouldnt you need conceptual level attacks to even damage Arceus then? It would make sense that way because if the plates themselves are the concepts of types, then attacks from fodder pokemon wouldnt be able to effect him, explaining why the plates can allow Arceus to nullify attacks of the appropriate type. Even attacks from the creation trio couldnt even touch arceus and their abstract beings. And just incase anyone brings up the Pikachu hitting him argument, remember, not only was it likely PIS but Arceus gave up several of the "conceptual" plates, ones that can nullify electric attacks. He even gave away the plate that would give him the concept of electricty so it would make somewhat sense that his avatar can be effected by something he at the time DIDNT have power over.

Now im totally fine if this isnt accepted as it may be very vague, ridiculous or both. But it was something I wanted to share with you guys and im glad I did. Thank you for giving me a chance and please share with me what you think about this.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Hmm... The plates amplify greatly a pokémon's power in response to the type the plate represents. Now, I don't think the plates are the concept of the type itself, but rather what Arceus uses for him to "unlock" that part of his own being that is tied to the type in question. Given what the plate does to other pokémon, I think it make sense that explanation. It unlocks there ties to the Type, making them capable of using it more effectively.

Edit: Arceus being The Spirit that flows through everything in the verse, the Plate changes him to the concept of the type. That fits more, in my opinion.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I think you might be a bit confused. The type plates that regular Pokemon use are merely copies of the original plates, spread throughout the Multiverse for fodders to use. They aren't conceptual at all just power boosters.

The ones I'm talking about are Arceus's and only Arceus's. The original plates that came before anything in the Multiverse with Arceus. They are the ones that I'm suggesting are conceptual.

 

[DontTalk]

There is a huge difference between creating a concept and just creating the first ever instance of a concept.

(and there also is a huge difference between creating a concept and doing any change to the physical world related to the concept, but that aside)


So I disagree with the suggestion.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Could you explain it a bit further DontTalk? Im sort of confused here.

The types were never a concept until Arceus came to be, like the other ones, Time, Space, Antimatter, etc. before the multiverse came. I don't see what "instance of a concept" is being done here when the types themselves are the concept. Its not like the multiverse came first and then the types were made. Its the other way around. The types, like Arceus, came before anything in the pokeverse came to be. So unless im missing something, the types should be concepts like the ones we accepted for Arceus here.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

bump

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Btw Cal, could you take a look at my other suggestion a few replies up please?

Bear in mind, this is NOT something im trying to push for as I previously mentioned it may be either too vague, too stupid or both to consider but it was something I wanted to share so im completely fine if its flat out wrong.

EDIT: Bear in mind everyone I will be taking last day of an exam today so I will not be able to come on until a few hours later. Whether this gets accepted or not please don't close the thread as there may still be things I'd like to mention and discuss. Thank you.

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

Agreed.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Bump

 

[NeoZex6399]

Seems reasonable, and more taking into account the statements of PMD...

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Now that I think about it, wouldn't the types also give Arceus the concept of Life/Death? And there may be quite a lot that supports it.

-Arceus, well, made the trio and Multiverse to begin with.

-Xerneas's Geomancy and Yveltals Oblivion Wing give/take life and their classified under type. Plus Xerneas and Yveltal themselves are the overseers of life/death and their power is classified under type.

-IIRC, there are other moves that absorb, give, restore, etc. life energy as well. Examples: Leach Life, Giga Drain, Heal Pulse, Aromathreaphy (Shamin used it to restore Giratina though it might be PIS), Curse, Destiny Bond, and ghost type move(s).

-Arceus's Jewel of Life has life restoring powers and was used to regrow the fertile life in the movie.

 

[XBlackExcellenceX]

Hades' sword is very hax. Arceus has to avoid it. But wait. Arceus controls the concept of steel. So he uses that and his concept of bugs to turn said sword into a pile of insects. (I know Hades likely had something to no-sell that but example's just that. An example.)

Sounds like Transmutation. Which isn't impressive at tier 2.

OT: Since this thread was heavily derailed, can someone reiterate the upgrade?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Transmutation IIRC only works on living things.

Ofc Hades blade probably has away around that example but the point Cal is trying to make is since Arceus would be controlling the concept of water, he'd change the blade into water to dispel it. Or manipulate it completely via control over the concept of steel (steel type).

 

[Reppuzan]

@Kukui

Key question: Has Arceus done any of the things you've mentioned? If not, then this is baseless speculation and theory-crafting.

 

[XBlackExcellenceX]

Transmutation IIRC only works on living things.

Ofc Hades blade probably has away around that example but the point Cal is trying to make is since Arceus would be controlling the concept of water, he'd change the blade into water to dispel it. Or manipulate it completely via control over the concept of steel (steel type).

Again, all of this falls under Transmutation and Matter Manipulation. Stuff Arceus already has on its page.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Pretty much what Black just said. The stuff you are mentioning are already on Arceus' file.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I'm not sure but it shouldn't really matter if he's done it or not. We accepted him having the concepts of time, space, antimatter, etc. despite the lack in showings. What would make the type concepts any different?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Dragon

Oh k. Well it was Cal's argument but if it's already listed I guess it just adds more fuel.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

@Kukui We also know for sure that he created those concepts. Last I checked Dialga and Palkia are the ones who shaped the universe. Groudon created landmasses and Kyogre created the seas. He actually has showings of creating those concepts. What is not set in stone is that he literally created everything seeing as Dialga and Palkia along with various other legendaries created everything. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Dragon is it okay if I reply later? I'm in lunch rn and I have a short time to eat before going to my other classes. When schools let out I'll reply to what you're saying unless someone else does for me. Is that alright?

 

[NeoZex6399]

@Dragonmasterxyz

In PMD it is stated directly that it has created everything...

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

And this is contradicted by the primary canon of Dialga and Palkia creating everything. Of course I may be misremembering.

 

[NeoZex6399]

Well, Arceus created Dialga and Palkia in addition to the myths are said to be part of his being.

Correct me if I'm wrong, pls...