Sniper670
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Okay. So you're saying Arceus cannot use other Pokémon moves?
I'm not getting the point of the page you made.
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Pokemon - Arceus and his Plate abilities?
- Thread starter Iamunanimousinthat
- Start date
- Status
I'm not getting the point of the page you made.
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- Thread starter
- #482
Arceus being shown to use the plates to do feats that are his own, is not the same as your claiming he gets the powers of abilities and moves he's never done before. Nice try though.
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Yemma, I swear to god if you keep posting the old Arceus Plates page and going "No i'm pretty sure this is the right version!!!!" I am going to commit a first degree felony.
Cease and desist.
Cease and desist.
Sniper670
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Well, it's your headcannon against lore here. Not me
Sniper670
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This CRT is far from over so chillax
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No, it's literally about to end once we re-tally the staff votes, so please stop reposting the blog.
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- Thread starter
- #488
It's not headcannon. Arceus uses the splash plate to create water. He however doesn't use it to give him the ability Torrent, Swift Swim, or any other water related ability. But if you can show me a clip or scan of Arceus using a plate to change his ability then be my guest.
Sniper670
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It's not. You're outvoted here. Everything agrees with True Form getting it, while regular bite out vote you by a mile
The worst that could happen here is Arceus True Form getting everything while his avatar gets everything sans abilities
Sniper670
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Legend Plate
A stone tablet in which the power of all things resides. When used on a Pokémon, it gains the power of all types of Pokémon
His ability allows him to use the powers of others
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- Thread starter
- #491
Exactly. You have nothing.
Pikaman
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You didn’t follow the standards for resistances, for example when listing immunity to fighting type moves you listed “immunity within reason to martial arts”, it should be “Immunity within reason to Fighting Type Moves”
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- Thread starter
- #495
Okay. I'll change it. But Arceus is immune to pokemon type moves when he has the plates of the same type. Should I just remove the resistances then?
Sniper670
He/Him- 6,409
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Actually no. Metal barrier can nullify all powers.
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Okay. Thank you.
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- Thread starter
- #500
I've posted it many times but people keep replying to it with the same arguments. But I'll post it here again.
This thread is long, so I’ll just restate the final arguments for everyone’s convenience.
The current page for Arceus, uses an incomplete quote to justify that Arceus has every moveset, ability, and power of all pokemon and non-pokemon.
The complete quote references to just Arceus changing his type.
It has been argued that the plates give Arceus all powers, abilities, and moves. However none of the statements have directly said any of this. The closest statement is a single translation that says, “has the power of everything” with no other supporting detail. This same line has been translated as supreme power, power of creation. The line is most likely refer to the plate having the power of all type, as the essence of each type is in them and allows Arceus to change type.
some other contradictions to this assertion that the plates provide every single power, move, and ability in the franchise are these:
1. pokemon existed before the plates. The plates were created from the shards of the universe, but pokemon predate the universe. These pokemon had powers and abilities, and moves before the plate existed so their power doesn’t come from the plate.
2. the plates are infused with the power of giants. These giants are not said to be created by anyone, invluding Arceus so it is erroneous to claim the power of everything comes from just Arceus.
3. arceus cannot learn every move. In fact, there are moves that Arceus cannot learn that the creation trio can. This means that even pokemon that were created by Arceus have power that’s independent to him. Mew can learn any move in the franchise, and this is expressed in the games by Mew learning every teachable move. If the creators of the pokemon series expressed their belief that Arceus can use every move, they would express that by allowing Arceus to learn every teachable move but they specifically did not.
4. Arceus has only shown to have one ability in the main games, anime, and manga. Besides Pokemon Conquest, a spin-off where he was three distinct abilites, Arceus always have his one ability and has never once in canon shown to have other abilities like (speed boost, shield dust, wonder guard). Arceus has only shown to use the plates to change his type and use the general abilites of said type for ex. He changes to a water type and uses the plate to use water manipulation. He has never shown to use the plate to gain an ability like swift-swim.
5. If the theory of the plates giving everything their power is true, that theory requires all beings to remotely draw power from the plates. Yet, Arceus cannot draw power from the plates when they are not in his position. Why can every being remotely draw power from the plates but not Arceus? Its very obvious that Beings do not get their powers from the plate but are rather born with it
6. the profile is picking and choosing which abilities to give Arceus. Abilites are passive or conditional. Most cannot be turned off and on. Yet, the profile does not give Arceus abilties such as Klutz (which would prevent him from holding the plates), Slow Start, which halves his power and speed, Truant, which requires him to rest after each move. Contrary, which forces boosts to be weakeners, and other abilities. Its apparent that the idea that the plates give arceus every power in existence is used to pad Arceus profile to make him more powerful and not as a way to accurately reflect source material, or those abilities would be written as weaknesses on his profile. The counter argument that Arceus chooses which ability to use and activate is not supported by any statement or showing in the source material.
7. The one line that maybe supports the idea that pokemon get their abilities from the plates, " " has several translations that clarify that is about Arceus specifically gaining power from the plates:
English: “The powers of Plates are shared among Pokémon.”
Spanish: "Al Pokémon surgido del Huevo, las tablas agracian con su poder"
Translation: "To the Pokémon that emerged from the Egg, the plates grace with their power"
French: Le pouvoir des plaques fut conféré au Pokémon qui naquit de l’Œuf.
Translation: The power of the plates was conferred on the Pokémon that was born from the Egg.
Italian: Il Pokémon appena nato poté attingere al potere delle lastre.
Translation: The newborn Pokémon could tap into the power of the plates.
German: Als das Pokémon aus dem Ei schlüpfte, wurde ihm die Kraft der Tafeln zuteil.
Translation: When the Pokémon hatched from the egg, it was given the power of the tablets.
8. there are no direct statements thats say every being in pokemon get all their powers from the plates. Its bases is taking a single statement and stretching it to its most highest interpretation with no supporting details and many contradictions. Also there are no clips or scans of Arceus using the plates to change his ability into something else.
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@Moritzva has said in Discord that she once again agrees with @The_real_cal_howard's points.
To summarise @The_real_cal_howard's points, they believe that Eternal Battle Reverie is better evidence than Plates, and believe Plates to be flimsy evidence at best, i.e. they agree with the main point of the thread.
There, there's yalls confirmation. Can we get closing arguments and end the thread please?
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- Thread starter
- #502
This is a new page so I'll post it here.
This thread is long, so I’ll just restate the final arguments for everyone’s convenience.
The current page for Arceus, uses an incomplete quote to justify that Arceus has every moveset, ability, and power of all pokemon and non-pokemon.
The complete quote references to just Arceus changing his type.
It has been argued that the plates give Arceus all powers, abilities, and moves. However none of the statements have directly said any of this. The closest statement is a single translation that says, “has the power of everything” with no other supporting detail. This same line has been translated as supreme power, power of creation. The line is most likely refer to the plate having the power of all type, as the essence of each type is in them and allows Arceus to change type.
some other contradictions to this assertion that the plates provide every single power, move, and ability in the franchise are these:
1. pokemon existed before the plates. The plates were created from the shards of the universe, but pokemon predate the universe. These pokemon had powers and abilities, and moves before the plate existed so their power doesn’t come from the plate.
2. the plates are infused with the power of giants. These giants are not said to be created by anyone, invluding Arceus so it is erroneous to claim the power of everything comes from just Arceus.
3. arceus cannot learn every move. In fact, there are moves that Arceus cannot learn that the creation trio can. This means that even pokemon that were created by Arceus have power that’s independent to him. Mew can learn any move in the franchise, and this is expressed in the games by Mew learning every teachable move. If the creators of the pokemon series expressed their belief that Arceus can use every move, they would express that by allowing Arceus to learn every teachable move but they specifically did not.
4. Arceus has only shown to have one ability in the main games, anime, and manga. Besides Pokemon Conquest, a spin-off where he was three distinct abilites, Arceus always have his one ability and has never once in canon shown to have other abilities like (speed boost, shield dust, wonder guard). Arceus has only shown to use the plates to change his type and use the general abilites of said type for ex. He changes to a water type and uses the plate to use water manipulation. He has never shown to use the plate to gain an ability like swift-swim.
5. If the theory of the plates giving everything their power is true, that theory requires all beings to remotely draw power from the plates. Yet, Arceus cannot draw power from the plates when they are not in his position. Why can every being remotely draw power from the plates but not Arceus? Its very obvious that Beings do not get their powers from the plate but are rather born with it
6. the profile is picking and choosing which abilities to give Arceus. Abilites are passive or conditional. Most cannot be turned off and on. Yet, the profile does not give Arceus abilties such as Klutz (which would prevent him from holding the plates), Slow Start, which halves his power and speed, Truant, which requires him to rest after each move. Contrary, which forces boosts to be weakeners, and other abilities. Its apparent that the idea that the plates give arceus every power in existence is used to pad Arceus profile to make him more powerful and not as a way to accurately reflect source material, or those abilities would be written as weaknesses on his profile. The counter argument that Arceus chooses which ability to use and activate is not supported by any statement or showing in the source material.
7. The one line that maybe supports the idea that pokemon get their abilities from the plates, "The powers of Plates are shared among Pokémon." has several translations that clarify that is about Arceus specifically gaining power from the plates:
8. there are no direct statements thats say every being in pokemon get all their powers from the plates. Its bases is taking a single statement and stretching it to its most highest interpretation with no supporting details and many contradictions. There are no clips or scans of Arceus being shown to be able to change his abilitiy from multi-type to something else.
This thread is long, so I’ll just restate the final arguments for everyone’s convenience.
The current page for Arceus, uses an incomplete quote to justify that Arceus has every moveset, ability, and power of all pokemon and non-pokemon.
The complete quote references to just Arceus changing his type.
It has been argued that the plates give Arceus all powers, abilities, and moves. However none of the statements have directly said any of this. The closest statement is a single translation that says, “has the power of everything” with no other supporting detail. This same line has been translated as supreme power, power of creation. The line is most likely refer to the plate having the power of all type, as the essence of each type is in them and allows Arceus to change type.
some other contradictions to this assertion that the plates provide every single power, move, and ability in the franchise are these:
1. pokemon existed before the plates. The plates were created from the shards of the universe, but pokemon predate the universe. These pokemon had powers and abilities, and moves before the plate existed so their power doesn’t come from the plate.
2. the plates are infused with the power of giants. These giants are not said to be created by anyone, invluding Arceus so it is erroneous to claim the power of everything comes from just Arceus.
3. arceus cannot learn every move. In fact, there are moves that Arceus cannot learn that the creation trio can. This means that even pokemon that were created by Arceus have power that’s independent to him. Mew can learn any move in the franchise, and this is expressed in the games by Mew learning every teachable move. If the creators of the pokemon series expressed their belief that Arceus can use every move, they would express that by allowing Arceus to learn every teachable move but they specifically did not.
4. Arceus has only shown to have one ability in the main games, anime, and manga. Besides Pokemon Conquest, a spin-off where he was three distinct abilites, Arceus always have his one ability and has never once in canon shown to have other abilities like (speed boost, shield dust, wonder guard). Arceus has only shown to use the plates to change his type and use the general abilites of said type for ex. He changes to a water type and uses the plate to use water manipulation. He has never shown to use the plate to gain an ability like swift-swim.
5. If the theory of the plates giving everything their power is true, that theory requires all beings to remotely draw power from the plates. Yet, Arceus cannot draw power from the plates when they are not in his position. Why can every being remotely draw power from the plates but not Arceus? Its very obvious that Beings do not get their powers from the plate but are rather born with it
6. the profile is picking and choosing which abilities to give Arceus. Abilites are passive or conditional. Most cannot be turned off and on. Yet, the profile does not give Arceus abilties such as Klutz (which would prevent him from holding the plates), Slow Start, which halves his power and speed, Truant, which requires him to rest after each move. Contrary, which forces boosts to be weakeners, and other abilities. Its apparent that the idea that the plates give arceus every power in existence is used to pad Arceus profile to make him more powerful and not as a way to accurately reflect source material, or those abilities would be written as weaknesses on his profile. The counter argument that Arceus chooses which ability to use and activate is not supported by any statement or showing in the source material.
7. The one line that maybe supports the idea that pokemon get their abilities from the plates, "The powers of Plates are shared among Pokémon." has several translations that clarify that is about Arceus specifically gaining power from the plates:
English: “The powers of Plates are shared among Pokémon.”
Spanish: "Al Pokémon surgido del Huevo, las tablas agracian con su poder"
Translation: "To the Pokémon that emerged from the Egg, the plates grace with their power"
French: Le pouvoir des plaques fut conféré au Pokémon qui naquit de l’Œuf.
Translation: The power of the plates was conferred on the Pokémon that was born from the Egg.
Italian: Il Pokémon appena nato poté attingere al potere delle lastre.
Translation: The newborn Pokémon could tap into the power of the plates.
German: Als das Pokémon aus dem Ei schlüpfte, wurde ihm die Kraft der Tafeln zuteil.
Translation: When the Pokémon hatched from the egg, it was given the power of the tablets.
8. there are no direct statements thats say every being in pokemon get all their powers from the plates. Its bases is taking a single statement and stretching it to its most highest interpretation with no supporting details and many contradictions. There are no clips or scans of Arceus being shown to be able to change his abilitiy from multi-type to something else.
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Here, direct confirmation that Mori said what they said. The last part is obviously a joke so don't mention it.
They evidently don't want to bother retyping Cal's points.
Sniper670
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Arceus and His Plates
I'll address op arguments
1. Pokémon existed before the Plates.
It's concept creation. Something he did after defeating the Giants is placing their powers into stone. Which became a new Typing for the multiverse, The Fire Type
2. The plates are infused with the power of giants.
a. These giants are not Pokémon
b. These giants are not humans
Why? Simple
So I'll say info of them cannot be used to support any argument. Best is that Arceus gets power absorption. That's it
3. Arceus cannot learn every move
Blatant game mechanics. Mew cannot learn all moves but going strictly by lore across all media, he has the DNA of all Pokémon and can use all moves
4. Arceus has only shown to have one ability in the main games
As shown above, the god of the multiverse is mentioned to have the power of everything and can use the power of all types of Pokémon. Now let's look at Arceus special ability because it perfectly complements this notion. It's called Multitype
生まれてくる (umaretekuru) = to be born, to come into the world
ポケモン (Pokemon) = Pokémon
プレート (Purēto) = plate
力 (chikara) = power
分け与えられる (wakeataerareru) = distribute, share
Which is the origin of the Typings as a whole. The plates hold the essence Of all types of Pokémon. The Plates here, are fragments of Arceus btw. Those who are Familiar with Concept Creation, this is an example of one in the verse.
5. If the theory of the plates giving everything their power is true, that theory requires all beings to remotely draw power from the plates
The plates are not some Universal energy system, no. What it does is, it acts as the blueprint, and any Pokémon born will fit into a type and exercise the powers. As I mentioned above, born Pokemon have their powers being sourced from an Origin, the plates, where all powers originates for Pokémon. Think of them as concept. Fire Plate gives Fire Typing to the multiverse, hence for example, A Pokémon will be born with a flame head and be fire type, stuff like that
6. the profile is picking and choosing which abilities to give Arceus.
The profile is not picking and choosing anything. Just like charaters like Rimuru or any other passive lords, abilities can be turned off/on, in fact it's the same as with Pokémon. Arceus choosing not to passive the verse≠ He's incapable of using it. The Key here, is that all powers are being gotten from plates. Nothing is exempt. So it's not an impossibility
7. The one line that maybe supports the idea that pokemon get their abilities from the plates
The only translations that have priority here is 1. Japanese and 2. English respectively. As the Japanese version is the Original version
8. there are no direct statements thats say every being in pokemon get all their powers from the plates
Electric Type= you can summon cloud to ground Lightning amongst other things
Water Type= Call rain if you want
Fire Type= The sun is yours to call
Ground= you can summon Earthquakes
And so on
I'll address op arguments
1. Pokémon existed before the Plates.
It's concept creation. Something he did after defeating the Giants is placing their powers into stone. Which became a new Typing for the multiverse, The Fire Type
In fact the only plates that were mentioned to have been created after the multiverse is the one of defeated giants, which I mentioned above, and the shards of the multiverse. All other Plates were already there
2. The plates are infused with the power of giants.
a. These giants are not Pokémon
b. These giants are not humans
Why? Simple
When we take a look at the engravings, humans are referred to as "humans", Pokémon are referred to as "Pokémon" and giants, well.... Giants
So I'll say info of them cannot be used to support any argument. Best is that Arceus gets power absorption. That's it
3. Arceus cannot learn every move
Blatant game mechanics. Mew cannot learn all moves but going strictly by lore across all media, he has the DNA of all Pokémon and can use all moves
Now, let's look at what is said about Arceus's Plates across various translations
It's pretty clear cut, that Arceus has the power of all things and can exercise said powers no problem. As shown by the anime, Arceus can go as far as defy the laws of nature with water plate, and nullify all attacks with steel plate.
4. Arceus has only shown to have one ability in the main games
As shown above, the god of the multiverse is mentioned to have the power of everything and can use the power of all types of Pokémon. Now let's look at Arceus special ability because it perfectly complements this notion. It's called Multitype
Now let's look at what is written on the Plates.
As you can see here, multitype allows Arceus to change into a type and use the powers ie. Arceus special ability is that he can use the powers of all things on account of the Plates being the origin of their powers. Let's get to this shall we
Translation
Word by word:
生まれてくる (umaretekuru) = to be born, to come into the world
ポケモン (Pokemon) = Pokémon
プレート (Purēto) = plate
力 (chikara) = power
分け与えられる (wakeataerareru) = distribute, share
Which is the origin of the Typings as a whole. The plates hold the essence Of all types of Pokémon. The Plates here, are fragments of Arceus btw. Those who are Familiar with Concept Creation, this is an example of one in the verse.
5. If the theory of the plates giving everything their power is true, that theory requires all beings to remotely draw power from the plates
The plates are not some Universal energy system, no. What it does is, it acts as the blueprint, and any Pokémon born will fit into a type and exercise the powers. As I mentioned above, born Pokemon have their powers being sourced from an Origin, the plates, where all powers originates for Pokémon. Think of them as concept. Fire Plate gives Fire Typing to the multiverse, hence for example, A Pokémon will be born with a flame head and be fire type, stuff like that
6. the profile is picking and choosing which abilities to give Arceus.
The profile is not picking and choosing anything. Just like charaters like Rimuru or any other passive lords, abilities can be turned off/on, in fact it's the same as with Pokémon. Arceus choosing not to passive the verse≠ He's incapable of using it. The Key here, is that all powers are being gotten from plates. Nothing is exempt. So it's not an impossibility
7. The one line that maybe supports the idea that pokemon get their abilities from the plates
The only translations that have priority here is 1. Japanese and 2. English respectively. As the Japanese version is the Original version
So it's clear Pokémon are born with the power of the plates, complimenting their typings
8. there are no direct statements thats say every being in pokemon get all their powers from the plates
And again, every facet of the multiverse falls under a type. The types basically allows Pokémon control over an aspect of the Pokémon reality
Electric Type= you can summon cloud to ground Lightning amongst other things
Water Type= Call rain if you want
Fire Type= The sun is yours to call
Ground= you can summon Earthquakes
And so on
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Sniper670
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I'm done
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so i decided to check another side of the argument, how moves aren't directly related to the types and thus having the powers of those doesn't give you those abilities, but i clearly remember moves either mentioning the usage of energy of their types, but with nearly 1000 moves is obviously hard to search.
i have found astral barrages summoning ghosts (spooky plate has the essence of them), burn up "burns out the user" which makes them not be a fire type anymore, psychic moves literally using psychic energy/power/wave all the time (mind plate has the essence of it), such as psywave, psycho cut and others, miracle eye letting dark types be hit by psychic types, dark void putting you in a world of darkness (dread plate has the essence of it), poison moves...do i even need to say and the toxic plate having said essence? curse working different for ghost types, trick or threat turning others into ghost types, conversion 1 and 2 and reflect changing your types, flying press deals "Fighting and Flying type damage"
Rototiller: "Tilling the soil, the user makes it easier for plants to grow. This raises the Attack and Sp. Atk stats of Grass-type Pokémon." meadow plate has the essence of plants.
foresight, ahem, "Resets opponent's Evasiveness, Normal-type and Fighting-type attacks can now hit Ghosts, and Ghost-type attacks hit Normal."
Ion Deluge "disperses electrically charged particles, which changes Normal-type moves to Electric-type moves.", plasma fists does the same with electrically charged fists.
Soak literally changes you into a water type by soaking you in water.
Flying types are flying types by literally flying, they stop flying , they aren't flying type anymore (roost) or lose their immunity (ground moves), sky plate has the essence of "flight".
Weather's ball power and type changes with the weather.
terrain pulse is a move that directly uses power of the terrain activacted for the type.
i'm ignoring plates like draco and pixie because the essence of dragons and fairies are more vagues, besides the other paltes like flame plate literally having the essence of fire with most fire moves just being fire projection and shaping, also ignoring the whole type effectiveness and weakeness.
so yeah, i can clearly see that moves and types are directly related energy-wise and moves can affect types themselves and even draw power from their energies for the move and thus the plates that represent the types should have access to those moves, not only that, i can see the types being related to the elements in a more generic way, like water type via soak.
detail, i did not check all moves, meaning there can be even more examples there, plus still gotta check the abilities as well, but spoilers, simple is a normal-type move that changes the enemy's ability to "simple", so yeah i already found aexample of moves direct touching abilities, i know that is not enough so i'll search for better connections.
i have found astral barrages summoning ghosts (spooky plate has the essence of them), burn up "burns out the user" which makes them not be a fire type anymore, psychic moves literally using psychic energy/power/wave all the time (mind plate has the essence of it), such as psywave, psycho cut and others, miracle eye letting dark types be hit by psychic types, dark void putting you in a world of darkness (dread plate has the essence of it), poison moves...do i even need to say and the toxic plate having said essence? curse working different for ghost types, trick or threat turning others into ghost types, conversion 1 and 2 and reflect changing your types, flying press deals "Fighting and Flying type damage"
Rototiller: "Tilling the soil, the user makes it easier for plants to grow. This raises the Attack and Sp. Atk stats of Grass-type Pokémon." meadow plate has the essence of plants.
foresight, ahem, "Resets opponent's Evasiveness, Normal-type and Fighting-type attacks can now hit Ghosts, and Ghost-type attacks hit Normal."
Ion Deluge "disperses electrically charged particles, which changes Normal-type moves to Electric-type moves.", plasma fists does the same with electrically charged fists.
Soak literally changes you into a water type by soaking you in water.
Flying types are flying types by literally flying, they stop flying , they aren't flying type anymore (roost) or lose their immunity (ground moves), sky plate has the essence of "flight".
Weather's ball power and type changes with the weather.
terrain pulse is a move that directly uses power of the terrain activacted for the type.
i'm ignoring plates like draco and pixie because the essence of dragons and fairies are more vagues, besides the other paltes like flame plate literally having the essence of fire with most fire moves just being fire projection and shaping, also ignoring the whole type effectiveness and weakeness.
so yeah, i can clearly see that moves and types are directly related energy-wise and moves can affect types themselves and even draw power from their energies for the move and thus the plates that represent the types should have access to those moves, not only that, i can see the types being related to the elements in a more generic way, like water type via soak.
detail, i did not check all moves, meaning there can be even more examples there, plus still gotta check the abilities as well, but spoilers, simple is a normal-type move that changes the enemy's ability to "simple", so yeah i already found aexample of moves direct touching abilities, i know that is not enough so i'll search for better connections.
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Vietthai96
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I'm neutral, but please for the love of everything, stop bringing other character or verse here, they have nothing to do with Pokemon
Sniper670
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You make a great point
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Why are you still using the same points as before? A few pages ago you putted the same points, I give you a complete answer to every one of them, you asked some clarification which I gave you and then returned as if nothing happened to use the same points for your argument, as if our discussion never happened.
If you are not satisfied with my explanation you should make a counter argument, not ignore it only because I'm not here to reitarate it in every new page.
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@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Moritzva @Starter_Pack @GyroNutz @SamanPatou @CloverDragon03
Would you be willing to evaluate the following two posts please?
Would you be willing to evaluate the following two posts please?
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Sorry, but I'm not reading these kinds of thread in order to avoid spoilers on Legends Arceus
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Hello!
I've been on this thread from the beginning and have made it clear I regard the plates as incomplete or weak standalone evidence, but Cal's points about how Arceus can summon all mons (as clarified more in a previous post) and similar arguments form a stronger basis that the plates can then support. The abilities can stay, but the reasonings should probably change, imo.
Sniper670
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That would have to be a different thread. This is about the plates.
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