Pokemon: Infinity and gimmicks

[Arceus0x]

This is a 2 part revision, in fact, I wanna start with the shortest and most understandable part.

PART 1: TO INFINITY

I want to remove the 3-C from 3-C, possibly High 3-A and make the character full on High 3-A.

There are a few reasons.

1. Universes are stated to be infinite.
"This Pokémon is feared as a deity in Hisuian legend. The birth of Palkia was what caused the walls of our world to disappear, creating a sky that spans for infinity."
- Palkia's pokedex entry

One might say that this is more of a legend but legends are generally treated as fact in the pokemon universe (exception being urban legends like Kadabra's whole shtick). Out Arceus scaling and the Heart scaling all come from such legends and so I think it is fair to treat them this way.

Now, when it comes to translation, I actually found the japanese entry and
神と畏れし伝説 ヒスイの地に あり。 誕生により うつし世の　壁 消え去り 延々と 際限なき空 出現したり。

The google translate translation goes: A legend revered as a god exists in the land of jade. With its birth, the walls of this world vanished, and an endless, boundless sky appeared.

2. Necrozma's Pokedex entries straight up tell us he shoots infinite energy.

Dusk mane Necrozma entry:
"Necrozma has attached itself to Solgaleo. It siphons away its host's limitless energy, exploiting that energy to fuel a rampage"
Dawn wings Necrozma entry:
"Lunala no longer has a will of its own. Now under the control of Necrozma, it continuously expels all of its energy."

Lunala and Solgaleo are equal and so are the transformations. From the information here, Necrozma siphons limitless energy and then expells all of it on the opponents.

ソルガレオに とりつき 無尽蔵に 湧きあがる エネルギーを 無理やり 吸収して 暴れまわる。

ルナアーラに 最早 意思は ない。 ネクロズマに 支配され すべての エネルギーを 放出 し続ける。

these are the japanese entries which google translate to

"It possesses Solgaleo, forcibly absorbing its inexhaustible energy and rampaging."

"Lunala no longer has any will of its own. Controlled by Necrozma, it continuously releases all of its energy."

So inexhaustable? Is it not infinite? I mean, the energy is specifically said to be light
"Light is the source of its energy. If it isn't devouring light, impurities build up in it and on it, and Necrozma darkens and stops moving."

And the official english translation is using limitless, so I think saying that the enegy is infinite isn't farfetched at all.

So what we have here is:

-Necrozma lit up a space that is infinite if the multiverse is infinite
-Necrozma ate universal light and lit up universes, which is endless
-Necrozma in the DM/DW forms uses all of the energy Lunala and Solgaleo possess, the energy being limitless.

I think together it should paint a solid enough picture that it should be plain High 3-A

PART 2: THE FUN PART

Gimmicks have been outdated for ages at this point.
Megas currently scale to 5x because they scale to G-max that scales to 5x but where does that come from? Lol, it comes from me, in the ancient days I suggested g-max should scale to 5x because in one anime episode Centiscorch is matched by an attack from Pikachu (who scaled to Megas who scaled to 2x base AP), Dragonite (who also scaled to megas who were 2x) and a Riolu that matched fully evolved Pokemon.
Considering Ash's pokemon are like Low 1-C right now I don't think it's acceptable to use this at all, never was actually.

What do we replace it with? Well, Z-A came to the rescue in that regard.

Mega Evolutions

Mega Feraligatr entry: "With its arms and hoodlike fin, this Pokémon forms a gigantic set of jaws with a bite 10 times as powerful as Mega Feraligatr's actual jaws."

Mega Elektross entry: "It now generates 10 times the electricity it did before Mega Evolving. It discharges this electricity from its false Eelektrik, which are made of mucus."

I think this is solid enough, it's epxlicitly said that their power increases 10x here (though ig Feraligatr's actual mouth doesn't, RIP) and I think this is basically the best we're gonna get. The fact that this is consistent here just goes to show that the boost should be 10x.

With the currently accepted AP, this becomes 43.4 Gigatons for average fully evolved Pokemon.

G-Max

G-max and D-max Pokemon are generally shown to be comparable or even above Mega Evolutions in power in the anime. The boost should be above 10x. Simple as that. In short, all G-max mons scale above 43.4 Gigatons.

Z-moves

Sinister Arrow Raid is an attack that summons 20 arrows for Decidueye and then shoots the opponent (+ Decidueye also tackles the opponent). The arrows hit the target and only when they're all connected they explode. This Z-move relies on Decidueye having Spirit Shackle, meaning that the attack is basically Spirit Shackle x 20 + a tackle attack.
With this, I think Z-moves should be counted as a 20x+ attack boost. This means that all Z-move users scale above 86.8 Gigatons or Island level+

There's still stuff to talk about, like the fact that wild mons can have Plus moves that could be a 10x boost in itself, but that is a revision for another day, for now that is all.

BONUS

Pikachu is outdated, let's uh, date him properly.

Gen 1 remains at 6-C as he scales to fully evolved mons

Gen 3 should be High 6-A as he fought Regice

Gen 6 Pikachu should be High 3-A by scaling down from Alain's Charizard who fough 50% Zygarde

Gen 7 Pikachu scales higher than Gen 6

Journeys Pikachu scales to Low 1-C by being superior to Cynthia

OVERALL:

-All Pokemon that currently are 3-C, possibly High 3-A get changed to plain High 3-A
-All Mega Pokemon are now 10x above their base AP
-All G-max Pokemon are above the 10x boost
-All Z-moves are now 20x above base AP
-Pikachu gets buffed out

 

[StrymULTRA]

Tbf aren't Megas a x2 by them upscaling from a datamined multiplier? I don't think that's usable here.

 

[Arceus0x]

Tbf aren't Megas a x2 by them upscaling from a datamined multiplier? I don't think that's usable here.

Lore >>>>>> datamines. Also, where is that from?
Either way, not only do we literally have a statement that the power of these mega evolutions is 10x higher, it's consistent with the evolution multiplier off Girafarig and Girafarai, which is also 10x. Since Mega Evo is basically an extra evolutionary stage, it fits perfectly.
I vehemently disagree with any usage of datamined stuff.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Lore >>>>>> datamines. Also, where is that from?
Either way, not only do we literally have a statement that the power of these mega evolutions is 10x higher, it's consistent with the evolution multiplier off Girafarig and Girafarai, which is also 10x. Since Mega Evo is basically an extra evolutionary stage, it fits perfectly.
I vehemently disagree with any usage of datamined stuff.

I remember Megas being a x2 for just being above Thick Club which is a x2 in datamined stuff, if we don't anymore then mb.

 

[Arceus0x]

I remember Megas being a x2 for just being above Thick Club which is a x2 in datamined stuff, if we don't anymore then mb.

This is very old. My goal here is to replace it with what's quite literally said on the pokedex. We finally have a proper multuplier, gotta use it.

 

[CanineAnnoyer]

Makes sense to me. Do you think Terastalization would give any multipliers?

 

[Arceus0x]

Makes sense to me. Do you think Terastalization would give any multipliers?

It's supposed to be a 1.5x multiplier for typings ingame but idk about lore.

 

[Arceus0x]

Bump

 

[GrayCraft_Dragon]

Would it be fine if we hold the Mega Evolutions and G max to be its own thing? Since me and Pazdera working on it

 

[Arceus0x]

Would it be fine if we hold the Mega Evolutions and G max to be its own thing? Since me and Pazdera working on it

I don't see why. Also, working with a permabanned guy can be seen as being a proxy.
If you have anything else you wanna add then you can do it in a separate revision.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Agree with the OP.

It's supposed to be a 1.5x multiplier for typings ingame but idk about lore.

In-game it’s a different boost for a matching Tera type and non-matching Tera type. A Tera Water Pikachu gets a 1.5x boost to Water moves, while a Tera Electric Pikachu only gets a 1/3rd increase to Electric moves (2x compared to if it wasn’t STAB). On top of that, the ability Adaptability makes non matching Tera types a 2x boost and matching Tera types a 2.25x boost compared to non STAB moves (so a Tera Normal Porygon-Z would only boost its Normal moves by 1/8th).

Using in-game multipliers for Tera probably shouldn’t be used unless we use STAB multipliers in general, which is a bit iffy.

 

[AguilaR202]

Agree with the OP.


In-game it’s a different boost for a matching Tera type and non-matching Tera type. A Tera Water Pikachu gets a 1.5x boost to Water moves, while a Tera Electric Pikachu only gets a 1/3rd increase to Electric moves (2x compared to if it wasn’t STAB). On top of that, the ability Adaptability makes non matching Tera types a 2x boost and matching Tera types a 2.25x boost compared to non STAB moves (so a Tera Normal Porygon-Z would only boost its Normal moves by 1/8th).

Using in-game multipliers for Tera probably shouldn’t be used unless we use STAB multipliers in general, which is a bit iffy.

STAB prolly wouldn’t work anyways unless the basic tier calc at any given rating is specifically done by moves from the pokemons that wouldn’t inherently have STAB.

 

[Arceus0x]

Best to leave Terastal for another day

 

[Arceus0x]

bump

 

[GrayCraft_Dragon]

bump

came back to say. I agree big boy

 

[Arceus0x]

I agree big boy

 

[Arceus0x]

bump

 

[AyOgUyS]

agreed

 

[Arceus0x]

Bump

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I suppose I do not mind this.

 

[Xdsagecat]

Considering Ash's pokemon are like Low 1-C right now

I'm sorry what?

 

[Arceus0x]

I'm sorry what?

Been accepted for a while, and I ain't gonna try changing it for now

 

[Imaginym]

Seems uncontested & reasonable, so it has my current approval.
Best regards, all!

 

[Arceus0x]

Seems uncontested & reasonable, so it has my current approval.
Best regards, all!

THANK YOU

gotta ask, is this enough to add it?

 

[Xdsagecat]

Been accepted for a while, and I ain't gonna try changing it for now

Yo I gotta find and the crt for this.

 

[SomebodyData]

All Pokemon that currently are 3-C, possibly High 3-A get changed to plain High 3-A
- Agreed
All Mega Pokemon are now 10x above their base AP
- Hard disagree; (1) the Pokedex entries do not indicate this is standard across all Mega evolutions, and (2) Mega Feraligatr's entry is comparing his gigantic set of jaws to Mega's own actual jaws, not to his pre-Mega evolved form.
All G-max Pokemon are above the 10x boost
- By extension, disagree.
All Z-moves are now 20x above base AP
- By extension, disagree.
Pikachu gets buffed out
- Agreed

 

[Hypertornado099]

Gen 3 should be High 6-A as he fought Regice

Simply saying "he fought Regice" on the profile wouldn't suffice as there is important context that needs to be listed

Regice is able to tank multiple Iron Tails despite his weakness. It also no sold a Thunderbolt. Volt Tackle knocked out Regice after it finished healing from Rest

Disagree with the Mega 10x amp for SomebodyData's reasons. The fact Mega Feraligatr's mouth doesn't get that 10x buff makes it less likely that all other Megas are equally as strong

 

[SlendVeny]

All Mega Pokemon are now 10x above their base AP
- Hard disagree; (1) the Pokedex entries do not indicate this is standard across all Mega evolutions, and (2) Mega Feraligatr's entry is comparing his gigantic set of jaws to Mega's own actual jaws, not to his pre-Mega evolved form.

Yeah... plus Eelektross is ALSO talking about something facilitated through the addition of extra body parts. It discharges 10 times as much electricity due to the big mucus arms.

 

[SomebodyData]

Simply saying "he fought Regice" on the profile wouldn't suffice as there is important context that needs to be listed

Regice is able to tank multiple Iron Tails despite his weakness. It also no sold a Thunderbolt. Volt Tackle knocked out Regice after it finished healing from Rest

Disagree with the Mega 10x amp for SomebodyData's reasons. The fact Mega Feraligatr's mouth doesn't get that 10x buff makes it less likely that all other Megas are equally as strong

Ah that does change the context quite abit, maybe "High 6-A with Volt Tackle" as a compromise? Or just considering the feat an outlier.

 

[Arceus0x]

All Mega Pokemon are now 10x above their base AP
- Hard disagree; (1) the Pokedex entries do not indicate this is standard across all Mega

The fact that there's 2 already suggests that that's the standard

evolutions, and (2) Mega Feraligatr's entry is comparing his gigantic set of jaws to Mega's own actual jaws, not to his pre-Mega evolved form.

Except that's literally the way he attacks in his mega.
Anytime he uses a physical move he relies specifically on his mega evovled jaws

All Z-moves are now 20x above base AP
- By extension, disagree.

Literally unrelated to the mega scaling dawg, please re-read this

Pikachu gets buffed out
- Agreed

Ok

Yeah... plus Eelektross is ALSO talking about something facilitated through the addition of extra body parts. It discharges 10 times as much electricity due to the big mucus arms.

Which suggests that it shoots out, you know, 10x more electricity with attacks like Thunder and thunderbolt, which again, you know, are singular electric attacks.
This disproves nothing.

Simply saying "he fought Regice" on the profile wouldn't suffice as there is important context that needs to be listed

Regice is able to tank multiple Iron Tails despite his weakness. It also no sold a Thunderbolt. Volt Tackle knocked out Regice after it finished healing from Rest

Pokemon tank a ton of hits even ones they're weak to in the anime. Pikachu would literally still scale just to a lower extent. Also, this is a trained Regicie, trained by a Frontier Brain none the less. This is basically an elite Regice.

Disagree with the Mega 10x amp for SomebodyData's reasons. The fact Mega Feraligatr's mouth doesn't get that 10x buff makes it less likely that all other Megas are equally as strong

We have 2 examples of Pokemon who are 10x stronger and Feraligatr fully relies on his mega jaws for biting rather than his actual ones. We should be accounting for that specifically.

 

[Arceus0x]

Ah that does change the context quite abit, maybe "High 6-A with Volt Tackle" as a compromise? Or just considering the feat an outlier.

Pokemon tank several hits they're weak to constantly in the anime and Pikachu is also comparable to Ash's Squirtle, Bulbasaur and Charizard, all of whom have fought High 6-A Pokemon like Regirock and Articuno

 

[Arceus0x]

Ah that does change the context quite abit, maybe "High 6-A with Volt Tackle" as a compromise? Or just considering the feat an outlier.

On the other hand I might remake the mega stuff later with Gray cause he has better evidence. Still, Pikachu should 100% be High 6-A and the Z moves should 100% be 20x boost because of their inherent characteristics, not because of mega scaling.

 

[Arceus0x]

Ah that does change the context quite abit, maybe "High 6-A with Volt Tackle" as a compromise? Or just considering the feat an outlier.

On the other hand I might remake the mega stuff later with Gray cause he has better evidence. Still, Pikachu should 100% be High 6-A and the Z moves should 100% be 20x boost because of their inherent characteristics, not because of mega scaling.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Pokemon tank a ton of hits even ones they're weak to in the anime. Pikachu would literally still scale just to a lower extent. Also, this is a trained Regicie, trained by a Frontier Brain none the less. This is basically an elite Regice.

Not all Pokemon can just tank moves they're weak to, so that's still something that's relevant enough to be added to the profile. I didn't say that Pikachu didn't scale, I just brought up more context that should be on the Pikachu profile. Otherwise, people would be on VS threads arguing that Pikachu's Thunderbolt is comparable to Regigigas. Volt Tackle being significantly more powerful than his other moves is also another thing that's very relevant for a profile; Pikachu could get "higher with Volt Tackle" in his AP justification

Yes I am aware that this Regice is trained and owned by a Frontier Brain, but are you forgetting that the feat used to scale Regice to Regigigas comes from the same Regice, except in a later season?

We have 2 examples of Pokemon who are 10x stronger and Feraligatr fully relies on his mega jaws for biting rather than his actual ones. We should be accounting for that specifically.

Idk if 2 is enough to apply to like every Mega lol

 

[Hypertornado099]

Pokemon tank several hits they're weak to constantly in the anime and Pikachu is also comparable to Ash's Squirtle, Bulbasaur and Charizard, all of whom have fought High 6-A Pokemon like Regirock and Articuno

Charizard can scale to Articuno, that's fine but I think only Battle Frontier Charizard scales. None of the Pokemon you listed have fought Regirock though. Bulbasaur and Squirtle have not fought Articuno either

Edit: I remember that Charizard's Flamethrower was shown to be roughly equal to a Moltres in the 2000 movie, the same one that was comparable to Lugia. This means that he scales to High 6-A in his original series key, but I'm unsure who else scales, someone would have to look into his other Pokemon's feats

 

[Arceus0x]

Charizard can scale to Articuno, that's fine but I think only Battle Frontier Charizard scales. None of the Pokemon you listed have fought Regirock though. Bulbasaur and Squirtle have not fought Articuno either

That is wrong to some extent. I misremembered that Bulbasaur and Squirtle fought Regis cause there were other regis in the episode. That doesn't change the following though.
First of all, Charizard fought Articuno earlier than the fight with the regis.
Second of all, in the fight where Pikachu, Squirtle and Bulbasaur fought the frontier pyramid king's pokemon, Charizard got beat up by a Dusclops that Bulbasaur then had to clean up.
To add to this, even weaker Pokemon of Ash's have fought regis on a near equal level.

Pikachu is generally stronger than most of Ash's Pokemon. In every generation he is at least second-best, not to mention that he clearly tanked attacks from Regice regardless.

 

[Arceus0x]

Not all Pokemon can just tank moves they're weak to, so that's still something that's relevant enough to be added to the profile.

We are talking about heavily trained Pokemon. In this case both Pikachu and Regice tanked each other's attacks and Pikachu eventually won. This argument is a nothingburger.

I didn't say that Pikachu didn't scale, I just brought up more context that should be on the Pikachu profile. Otherwise, people would be on VS threads arguing that Pikachu's Thunderbolt is comparable to Regigigas.

It wouldn't be either way because Regigigas is far stronger than any of the regis and Pikachu never had a proper fight with him. He still very much scales to Regice.

Volt Tackle being significantly more powerful than his other moves is also another thing that's very relevant for a profile; Pikachu could get "higher with Volt Tackle" in his AP justification

Sure, but it's not tier changing levels of higher, like SomebodyData thought

Yes I am aware that this Regice is trained and owned by a Frontier Brain, but are you forgetting that the feat used to scale Regice to Regigigas comes from the same Regice, except in a later season?

He doesn't scale to Regigigas, what are you on about?? Regice scales to other regis because their power together is strong enough hold back the power behind Groudon and Kyogre's clashes in the manga. They also outscale the legendary birds.

Idk if 2 is enough to apply to like every Mega lol

"lol" indeed. These are to blatant instances and there's apparently more evidence like Zeraora holding 10 lightning bolts of electricity compared to the one that is held by the base form, or Mega Evolution being transcendent of evolution, evolution being canonically at least a 10x boost as we see with Giarfarig.

 

[Hypertornado099]

That is wrong to some extent. I misremembered that Bulbasaur and Squirtle fought Regis cause there were other regis in the episode. That doesn't change the following though.
First of all, Charizard fought Articuno earlier than the fight with the regis.
Second of all, in the fight where Pikachu, Squirtle and Bulbasaur fought the frontier pyramid king's pokemon, Charizard got beat up by a Dusclops that Bulbasaur then had to clean up.
To add to this, even weaker Pokemon of Ash's have fought regis on a near equal level.

Pikachu is generally stronger than most of Ash's Pokemon. In every generation he is at least second-best, not to mention that he clearly tanked attacks from Regice regardless.

I updated my comment, Original Series Ash should now scale to High 6-A, though idk what other Pokemon of Ash's (Kanto and Johto) would scale to that Charizard feat of matching Moltres

 

[Hypertornado099]

These are to blatant instances and there's apparently more evidence like Zeraora holding 10 lightning bolts of electricity compared to the one that is held by the base form

It just says 10 lightning strikes worth of energy. That would make it 16 billion joules which is very low, so I don't think that should be brought up if you're upgrading Pokemon that are above Tier 8

 

[Hypertornado099]

It wouldn't be either way because Regigigas is far stronger than any of the regis and Pikachu never had a proper fight with him. He still very much scales to Regice.

You're just strawmanning now. At no point did I say Pikachu didn't scale. I simply brought up context that could be added to Pikachu's profile. It would be misleading to say he just scales to Regice, without mentioning that the only thing that did meaningful damage was Volt Tackle. Otherwise people would think a Thunderbolt from Pikachu would be equal in power to the Regis

He doesn't scale to Regigigas, what are you on about?? Regice scales to other regis because their power together is strong enough hold back the power behind Groudon and Kyogre's clashes in the manga. They also outscale the legendary birds.

Regice's main High 6-A justification is scaling to Regigigas actually. The Groudon and Kyogre thing is fine