Pokemon - Arceus and his Plate abilities?

[Sniper670]

They actually agreed with the OP that the evidence for Plates were too flimsy, but agree that Reverie is good enough to give Arceus all pokemon powers, however that is not what this CRT is about. I can ask them again if you want.

I find eternal battle reverie evidence incredibly vague/flimsy

I wouldn't pick that over what is DIRECTLY mentioned on the Plates. No. After I looked up the Japanese translations and all? No way

 

[Arceus0x]

I think both examples of evidence are solid on their own, one being a direct and clear statement and the other being a direct and clear showing. Combine the bad boys together and I disagree with this thread's premise.

 

[Sniper670]

What I see here, is op trying to damage control by alluding their loss to eternal battle reverie instead of Plates

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I guess, I also told you to spam an important staff crt as well too lol

I won't be surprised if the Transduality crt was made because of Arceus.

A very silly behavior if you ask me. Just get something better doing will ya

Ive already asked you to stop with the personal attacks.

 

[Sniper670]

Okay sire.

Can you call a mod to close this please sire.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

anyways, I’ll start making the sandbox for the changes

 

[InfiniteDay]

What I see here, is op trying to damage control by alluding their loss to eternal battle reverie instead of Plates

I am #1 Not the OP and #2 I'm not the one coping here. I'm simply stating Eternal Battle Reverie is what Mori and Cal agree with, not the Plates. Once again, I can check with them again to see if they actually agree with the Plates.

 

[Sniper670]

anyways, I’ll start making the sandbox for the changes

What changes? Lol

 

[Pikaman]

i can post an image of Arceus being held down by a crobat and a few other pokemon if you want.

You know damn well these are outliers

 

[InfiniteDay]

I've asked Ant about the voting system to see which side would get accepted if we got staff to close the thread now.

 

[Sniper670]

I am #1 Not the OP and #2 I'm not the one coping here. I'm simply stating Eternal Battle Reverie is what Mori and Cal agree with, not the Plates. Once again, I can check with them again to see if they actually agree with the Plates.

Check them again. Because

1. Eternal Battle Reverie evidence is vastly inferior to things that were mentioned directly on the plates

レジェンドプレート
万物の力が宿った石盤。あるポケモンに使うと あらゆるタイプの力を得る。

Translation :

Legend Plate
A stone tablet in which the power of all things resides. When used on a Pokémon, it gains the power of all types of Pokémon

Not just Pokémon, no. ALL things in the literal sense

 

[InfiniteDay]

Check them again. Because

Once again, I am not stating Eternal Battle Reverie is better, i'm stating Mori and Cal think that they are better than the Plates are. Not me.

 

[Sniper670]

Hmmph. I wasn't really available at the time.

I'd like to know which part of this is inferior to Eternal battle reverie

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

You know damn well these are outliers

You don’t even know the context of the scene i was talking.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I have this for the potential changes to the plates

Arceus Plate revision

vsbattles.fandom.com

I am unsure for what could be placed for Dark, Fairy, Ghost, Bug, Dragon, Normal, and Psychic.

For Psychic, I put telekinesis, I may put telepathy

For Dark, I wanted to put Darkness manipulation but Dark types are kind of like Fighting types rather than manipulating darkness. Their moves are based off a theme of underhandedness, mischievousness, treachery, bad vibes (lol)

Fairy, I put magic, but I may put light manipulation too?

Bug, idk what fits there

Same thing for Dragon

Same thing for Normal

 

[Pikaman]

I have this for the potential changes to the plates

Arceus Plate revision

vsbattles.fandom.com

I am unsure for what could be placed for Dark, Fairy, Ghost, Bug, Dragon, Normal, and Psychic.

For Psychic, I put telekinesis, I may put telepathy

For Dark, I wanted to put Darkness manipulation but Dark types are kind of like Fighting types rather than manipulating darkness. Their moves are based off a theme of underhandedness, mischievousness, treachery, bad vibes (lol)

Fairy, I put magic, but I may put light manipulation too?

Bug, idk what fits there

Same thing for Dragon

Same thing for Normal

You can read in the Pokémon Profile Standards how we index types!

Pokémon Profile Standards

There are currently over 1000 Pokémon, each part of the largest multimedia franchise in the entire world, spanning video games, comic books, TV shows, movies, and even trading cards. When dealing with a massive, ever-expanding verse of this magnitude, consistency is going to be vitally important...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Sniper670]

I have this for the potential changes to the plates

Arceus Plate revision

vsbattles.fandom.com

I am unsure for what could be placed for Dark, Fairy, Ghost, Bug, Dragon, Normal, and Psychic.

For Psychic, I put telekinesis, I may put telepathy

For Dark, I wanted to put Darkness manipulation but Dark types are kind of like Fighting types rather than manipulating darkness. Their moves are based off a theme of underhandedness, mischievousness, treachery, bad vibes (lol)

Fairy, I put magic, but I may put light manipulation too?

Bug, idk what fits there

Same thing for Dragon

Same thing for Normal

No

 

[Sniper670]

This looks fine

Arceus' Plates

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[InfiniteDay]

This looks fine

Arceus' Plates

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Thelastmlg]

Okay since this seems done, gonna mention that Battle Reverie (wtf is that) plus the new japanese text, especially the legend plates', would be great added in the plate and arceus pages, either in the P&A section or as a note with the rest of the evidence.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Okay since this seems done, gonna mention that Battle Reverie (wtf is that) plus the new japanese text, especially the legend plates', would be great added in the plate and arceus pages, either in the P&A section or as a note with the rest of the evidence.

Did you comment on the right thread? Maybe you meant the other one.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Nope, that one i talked about something else, in this one i'm saying that the extra supporting evidence is should be added to arceus' page and the plates one whenever they are made.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Nope, that one i talked about something else, in this one i'm saying that the extra supporting evidence is should be added to arceus' page and the plates one whenever they are made.

The plates aren’t supporting evidence. That’s what this threads about.

the battle reverie and true form arcues discussion is going to be in another thread.

 

[Sniper670]

The plates aren’t supporting evidence. That’s what this threads about.

the battle reverie and true form arcues discussion is going to be in another thread.

Arceus and the Plates is just true form Arceus in manifest form

And no, it's not going to be in another thread. And yes, that Plates crt is going to get passed and linked to Arceus profile.

 

[Sniper670]

I'll repeat, the plates make it blatantly clear what it means. You tried to interpret it however you liked. I went through the pains of finding and posting the Japanese version here

Stop relegating your loss to Eternal Battle Reverie. It has no relationship with anything here

 

[Faron25]

You didn’t answer my question. If all pokemon remotely draw power from the plates, why can’t arceus do the same when the plates aren’t with him?




And all I can point to is having an actual argument that’s not waving away any weakness or limitation as game mechanics or PIS.

Maybe you can read the page. In order to claim something as game mechanics, you have to provide an example where it is obviously contradicting. You haven’t done that. No has yet to give me a statement or showing that says:

1. Arceus can learn every move.
2. Arceus possesses every Pokemon Ability
3. Arceus has the power of all pokemon and non-pokemon.

so far, all they have is lore statements of the plates which the majority of the staff, including pokemon knowledgeable members have agreed is weak and not sufficient.

But I have given examples Arceus not being able to learn moves, and not even being able to learn moves that his creations can learn, meaning that it is possible for Pokemon to have power independent of Arceus.

I have shown that lore of the plates describe giving Arceus the power to change types and that if the plates were responsible for giving pokemon their individual powers, there are major contradictions:

1. pokemon existed before the plates
2. The plates are infused with the power of the giants who are not stated to be creations of Arceus.
3. The statement pokemon share, the power of the plates, is reffering to the fact that they boost pokemons power as shown in the game, manga, and anime.
4. Arceus cannot draw power from the plates remotely and needs them to be in his possession to use them, but the theory of “pokemon get their powers from the plates” requires pokemon to draw power remotely from the plates. If this theory is correct, why can’t Arceus do the same?

Ok, I'll try too to explain why:
From the Original Story, we know that the Original One was born from the convergence of everything in the chaos before the creation. He then released from himself three beings (the story talks about two because Giratina was removed from the myths) that are space, time (which make up he world) and "anti-matter" (which make up the anti-world, balancing the world). These three are part of the Original one and in fact are called in japanese "bunshin" or "alter-ego" (the explanation is in the blog Pokémon called Gods. The pokémon Dialga, Palkia and Giratina are only avatars of these three, in fact there are multiple of them, like for the avatar of the Orginal One (Arceus). This already means that the multiverse, all the creation in Pokémon is a part of the Orginal one, this includes also the Pokémon themselves and the humans, and everything else that has been created.
But, what about the powers? What is the role of the Plates in all of this? We know, from the one of the text engraved in the plates that:

"The power of defeated giants infuses this Plate."

In fourth generation, the text of the plates wern't bound to a specific plate, so this text means that all the plates contain the power of these never again mentioned Giants. The only thing that we know is that the Original One defeated them, absorbed their power and used them as part of his creation plan, infusing these same powers in shards of the universe during the creation, giving so power to the matter, in specific Pokémon (but not only, since we also have items with elemental power of other particular effects that can influence the powers of Pokémon). There is anyway a big difference between the Plates and the Giants' power holds by the Orignal One. The Plates are only objects created by the Original One during the creation, they are not the true source of this power. In fact they are not unique objects in the game, is possible to obtain multiple copies of them and they can be even broken (in fourth generation, mining in the Underground is possible to find additional plates, but also shards of what are very likely pieces of them. This also explain why there can be engravings in them, since it is implied in PLA that the Hero has written them). So it would be possible to destroy all the plates in the universe without consequences, since the real source of the power is in the hands of the Original One.

So practically the world (matter), the anti-world (anti-matter), and the power (Plates/Giants' power) is all part of the Original One and as a consequence everything from moves, abilities and anything else would be possible for him since he is any pokemon. This is reinforced also from the engravings on the Pixie Plate and Legend Plate.

This should answer to your first three question and technically also to your contarddictions, but for them I can also give a direct answer:
1: By now you would already understood that the ones you call plates are not the source of these powers, and also that the ones that you call Pokémon are not really Pokémon (moreover, in the introduction of PLA Arceus clarify that he doesn't consider himself a Pokémon). The Avatars have been also created after the creation, and anyway The Original One could have bestowed them the power of types before without problems.

2: And in fact this is correct, they are clearly enemies of the Orginial One, and as such they have been defeated of absorbed. There are also theories that Arceus himself is one of these Giants (The normal Type One, that now has all the powers for himself).

3: This also should be clear by now, the plates are not the source and they can only give a simple boost to normal Pokémon, unlike Arceus (the avatar) that can use their real powers (which is represented in the games battle as a simple type change and move change to balance the game battles, otherwise he could not be used as for the Original One).

4: If the avatar Arceus lose for some reason one of his Plates probably he cannot access to al the special power connected to it, but we don't really know, since the representation of arceus with the plates in that way is present only in the movie and anime (that are not made by Game Freak, but are still accepted in this site as secondary canon), in Fourth gen it was possible to mantain only one plate at the time because of game mechanics and in PLA Arceus only needed to interact to the legend plate to have all the power without even the need to hold it (but even in this case it seem more a game mechanics limitation, since it is not possible to hold items).

 

[Sniper670]

Alright, so I got sick of "Eternal Battle Reverie has more evidence than what is written directly on the plates" and became a multilingual as a result. Let's get into this

Chinese
蘊含著萬物之力的石板。對某種寶可夢使用，可使其獲得一切屬性的力量。

A stone slab that contains the power of everything. When used on a particular type of Pokemon, it will give it the power of all attributes.

French
Une tablette en pierre imprégnée d'une puissance suprême. Lorsqu'elle est utilisée sur un certain Pokémon, celui-ci obtient les pouvoirs de n'importe quel type.

A stone tablet imbued with supreme power. When used on a certain Pokémon, the Pokémon obtains the powers of any type.

Spanish
Tabla de piedra imbuida de la energía de la creación. Permite a cierto Pokémon obtener el poder de cualquier tipo.

Stone tablet imbued with the energy of creation. Allows a certain Pokémon to obtain the power of any type.

Japanese
万物の力が宿った石盤。あるポケモンに使うと あらゆるタイプの力を得る。

A stone tablet in which the power of all things resides. When used on a Pokémon, it gains the power of all types of Pokémon

Before you begin "it means other Pokémon can use it" no, a certain Pokémon "references One Pokémon alone, and that is Arceus. Which is why he's the only one who can use Legend Plate

Pokémon get their 20% boost due to their relationship with the plate, as it is the origin of their powers. To actually exercise the power of all things, the lawful bearer of a Plate is required, and that is Arceus.

French
Le détenteur légitime des plaques peut maîtriser leur pouvoir et adopter de nombreuses formes.

The legitimate holder of the plates can control their power and adopt many forms.

Chinese Simplified
掌握石板者， 能化身诸般形态去行使威能。

Those who master the tablet can take on all kinds of forms to exercise their power.

German
Bei seinem rechtmäßigen Träger lösen die Tafeln einen Wandel aus und verleihen ihm Kraft.

In its rightful bearer, the tablets trigger a change and give him strength.

Spanish
Las tablas confieren su poder al legítimo portador

The boards confer their power on the legitimate bearer

Korean
플레이트를 손에 넣은 존재 자유자재로 변하여 힘을 발휘하리라.

The existence that possesses the plate will freely transform and exert its power.

No ifs or buts

Which is why Arceus can use water plate to defy the laws of nature, when other Pokémon get trivial 20% boost in Ap. Arceus can nullify all attacks with steel plate, when all other Pokémon get trivial 20% boost in Ap.

A sentient Flame Plate was too much for the Lake Trio, when other Pokémon can only get trivial 20% boost in Ap.

Again. Without the lawful bearer of a Plate wielding and exercising the innate powers within it, 20% Ap increase is too insignificant of a boost to be of any use. Which is why in the manga, even with the trivial 20% boost, what they needed was for Arceus to wield and use said plates to do what they wanted(forgot what it was).

 

[Sniper670]

And for those saying "even if moves are given, I don't see why abilities should be given" are missing the point


You can see that in their physiology. Some fire Pokémon are made of magma, clearly such things will be impossible if the Typings as a thing didn't exist. Flash Fire as an ability is as a result of their fire typing. Or Pokémon passively causing rain to fall, or the sun to appear. Or Pokémon being made out of steel

The 18 types are Conceptual in nature. Arceus doesn't come down from Heaven to assign you what you can and can't do, it's the blueprint and everything in the multiverse participates in it.

All Pokémon powers, ability or not. In fact the Legend plate encompasses all powers. So everything at all is associated with the Plates

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

The Plates are only objects created by the Original One during the creation, they are not the true source of this power. In fact they are not unique objects in the game, is possible to obtain multiple copies of them and they can be even broken (in fourth generation, mining in the Underground is possible to find additional plates, but also shards of what are very likely pieces of them. This also explain why there can be engravings in them, since it is implied in PLA that the Hero has written them). So it would be possible to destroy all the plates in the universe without consequences, since the real source of the power is in the hands of the Original One.

So you agree with this thread then? That the plates do not give justification for Arceus to having all powers, moves, and abilities in the pokemon franchise.

this thread is about the plates. You can argue for the original one in another crt.

 

[Sniper670]

You're missing the point here

The plates indeed allows its wielder to harness every power shown in the series, as Arceus, the Pokémon, is the form The Original Spirit uses to interact and exercise his authority over the multiverse.

It's absurd, that Pokémon can do things that he can't and the Plates make it clear he can do all they can and more

 

[Faron25]

So you agree with this thread then? That the plates do not give justification for Arceus to having all powers, moves, and abilities in the pokemon franchise.

this thread is about the plates. You can argue for the original one in another crt.

No. Maybe I wasn't clear enough. The real source of the Plates power is the Original One, but this doesn't mean that the Plates have no power. They are more a medium to reach the real power, that can be used appropriately only by avatar Arceus. So this means that avatar Arceus can have all the powers in the verse using the Plates without problem.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

No. Maybe I wasn't clear enough. The real source of the Plates power is the Original One, but this doesn't mean that the Plates have no power. They are more a medium to reach the real power, that can be used appropriately only by avatar Arceus. So this means that avatar Arceus can have all the powers in the verse using the Plates without problem.

Where is it said that the plates give Arceus all the moves, the abilities, and powers of every pokemon, even the ones that didn’t exist yet when the plates were created?

No. Maybe I wasn't clear enough. The real source of the Plates power is the Original One, but this doesn't mean that the Plates have no power. They are more a medium to reach the real power, that can be used appropriately only by avatar Arceus. So this means that avatar Arceus can have all the powers in the verse using the Plates without problem.

The source of the plates is not just the original one, its also the giants. There is no proof the giants were created by the original one

This also should be clear by now, the plates are not the source and they can only give a simple boost to normal Pokémon, unlike Arceus (the avatar) that can use their real powers (which is represented in the games battle as a simple type change and move change to balance the game battles, otherwise he could not be used as for the Original One).

Both in the anime and manga, it says the plates change Arceus’s type. Its not just the game.

Where in the anime or manga does it say the plates give Arceus every moveset, every ability, and all the powers of every pokemon and non-pokemon. (Because not even the game says that)

 

[Sniper670]

Alright, so I got sick of "Eternal Battle Reverie has more evidence than what is written directly on the plates" and became a multilingual as a result. Let's get into this









Before you begin "it means other Pokémon can use it" no, a certain Pokémon "references One Pokémon alone, and that is Arceus. Which is why he's the only one who can use Legend Plate

Pokémon get their 20% boost due to their relationship with the plate, as it is the origin of their powers. To actually exercise the power of all things, the lawful bearer of a Plate is required, and that is Arceus.











No ifs or buts

Which is why Arceus can use water plate to defy the laws of nature, when other Pokémon get trivial 20% boost in Ap. Arceus can nullify all attacks with steel plate, when all other Pokémon get trivial 20% boost in Ap.

A sentient Flame Plate was too much for the Lake Trio, when other Pokémon can only get trivial 20% boost in Ap.

Again. Without the lawful bearer of a Plate wielding and exercising the innate powers within it, 20% Ap increase is too insignificant of a boost to be of any use. Which is why in the manga, even with the trivial 20% boost, what they needed was for Arceus to wield and use said plates to do what they wanted(forgot what it was).

It's all explained here

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

It's all explained here

Nothing there says Arceus gains every ability from the plates.

 

[Sniper670]

Nothing there says Arceus gains every ability from the plates.

The plates have the power of all things. Of which the rightful bearer can use to exercise the powers

 

[Faron25]

Where is it said that the plates give Arceus all the moves, the abilities, and powers of every pokemon, even the ones that didn’t exist yet when the plates were created?



The source of the plates is not just the original one, its also the giants. There is no proof the giants were created by the original one


Both in the anime and manga, it says the plates change Arceus’s type. Its not just the game.

Where in the anime or manga does it say the plates give Arceus every moveset, every ability, and all the powers of every pokemon and non-pokemon. (Because not even the game says that)

Everything in the Pokémon verse that the Original One created is part of him. Any pokemon is him, any human is him. So there is nothing that they can do and he cannot, since technically is him that is doing everything.
The Giants are the only thing in Pokémon that apparently is not part of the Original One, and they have been already defeated and absorbed by him. Even if in the future we discover that some remnants of them are still alive, the power used to create the universe is not theirs, but of the Original One.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Everything in the Pokémon verse that the Original One created is part of him. Any pokemon is him, any human is him. So there is nothing that they can do and he cannot, since technically is him that is doing everything.
The Giants are the only thing in Pokémon that apparently is not part of the Original One, and they have been already defeated and absorbed by him. Even if in the future we discover that some remnants of them are still alive, the power used to create the universe is not theirs, but of the Original One.

You keep going back to the original one. This is about the plates.

 

[Sniper670]

Please just let me do it, your messing up the links and aren't counting up the people correctly.

Agrees: 8 Regular + 1 Staff (@Iamunanimousinthat, @Hasty12345, @Rikimarox2, @InfiniteDay, @Paul_Frank, @Comicgyal, @DontTalkDT, @JoshSSJGod, @TheGreatMaster12)

Disagrees: 15 Regular + 1 staff (@Yemma670, @Arceus0x, @Chariot190, @Thelastmlg, @The_Pink_God, @JustANormalPerson01, @hajime, @Robot972, @Moritzva, @ZetaMarishi, @Milly_Rocking_Bandit, @Pikaman, @GodlyCharmander, @Luckyfun , @Faron25 @The_real_cal_howard)

Inconclusive/No Opinion: 3 regular + 1 Staff (@Everything12, Agrees with True Form Arceus having everything), @Purgy (fine with Possibly), @Zencha9 (Agreed with True Form Having it), @Vietthai96)

I'll try to get Ant to close this. We're done

 

[Hasty12345]

Alright, so add slow start to Arceus’ profile and we’re done here.

 

[Sniper670]

That will be offset with huge power

I can add it but too many abilities offset it with perks I wouldn't call that a weakness at all