AP Gap Needed to Oneshot

[Kepekley23]

Equally for the sixth time, nobody here is arguing for a strict rule.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

No one is arguing for a rule Matt.

We are arguing for a standard

We already have a standard.

What you're proposing affects the implementation of rules, as you've said yourself.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Equally for the sixth time, nobody here is arguing for a strict rule.

You're arguing for a standard that affects the implementation of rules, and the results are virtually indistinguishable.

 

[Kepekley23]

> Again, using the absolute extremes to make your point.

It's effectively the same argument. You recognize it's, in no kind words, BS that a Tier 6 can't one shot a Tier 8, but it's effectively the same as saying a 50-ton 8-B shouldn't be able to one-shot a 5-ton High 8-C.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Uhh Dargoo?

Breaking the rules can get you warnings or banned.

Not following the guidelines for battles can get it moved to the fund and game board. It slightly crosses with the rules in the sense that not posting stomps is a guideline, but other than that they are very different.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Okay, I feel like this has gone on far too long and has went absolutely nowhere.

We need a standard. Not a rule. I don't care what our standard is, but when we start needing to enforce it for every character, we have an issue. Not all characters are bound by said standards. Standards can in fact be very flexible. A standard gives us a simple "value" to start with that can be decreased or increased depending on accepted feats. Rules would mean making this absolute in which as shown here, will not work.

Let's look at our current system.

1) We do not allow restriction of abilities any longer.

2) We only equalized speed when necessary. (A Mach 1000 vs a Mach 3000 doesn't really need equalization honestly)

3) Speed equalization allows for more match-ups to be available while not getting rid of the of the "non equalized" option. (Basically the standard)

4) Just because, someone has one-shot level AP =/= A victory. In a brute force fight, yeah it's pretty stompy, but when you get to haxes, then AP is simply a factor of varying sizes. Character A has 1200x the AP, but Character B has a skill that is can reflect attacks infinites greater, but was overall much weaker. Guess what? Character A is pretty ****** ain't they? Character, abilities, skill, stamina, range, tactics, etc are all important along with AP and Durability. Kratos vs Hadesmon was a major showcase of this.

5) Decisive Victories are apparently a thing, but no one ever can agree whether something is a stomp or decisive and honestly our term "decisive" can be used just to hide stomps and one-sided matches. Just being honest. People are also very wishy washy with this. When their character wins, they don't even consider it being a stomp, but when they lose, it's always a stomp. That's also something to think about.

6) We do not allow stomps to be added.

Overall, there is no need for a rule. A standard is an option that is useful. But the standard is not the rule and should be flexible to allow exceptions to it. This whole fiction vs reality mumbo jumbo is irrelevant to the simple fact that a standard hurts no one as long as it is flexible.

I hope you understood everything. Trying to rush this out due to classes.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

> Again, using the absolute extremes to make your point.

It's effectively the same argument. You recognize it's, in no kind words, BS that a Tier 6 can't one shot a Tier 8, but it's effectively the same as saying a 50-ton 8-B shouldn't be able to one-shot a 5-ton High 8-C.

Yet we're not arguing large differences in AP, we're arguing for an exact line where it turns into a one-shot, something you would need evidence that you lack to prove and would need more substance than a vacuous opinion.

@Dragon Exactly. Thank you.

 

[Sera_EX]

There is no evidence that a 10x difference is applicable as a one shot for every tier. There's like 53 tiers (sub tiers included). We could play it fair and say "a tier or sub tier above qualifies as a one shot" but you guys want to assign an actual number within an exact tier because "muh physics", and no one can agree on one, hence this thread's existence. Btw obviously after High 3-A, each tier is infinitely greater, so that's clearly a stomp unless hax is involved.

 

[Kepekley23]

Also, can anyone post any proof that a High 6-A can instantly kill a guy with 6-B durability that doesn't involve inapplicable real world durability?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Uhh Dargoo?

Breaking the rules can get you warnings or banned.

Not following the guidelines for battles can get it moved to the fund and game board. It slightly crosses with the rules in the sense that not posting stomps is a guideline, but other than that they are very different.

First rule of the Versus Threads Rules is not creating stomp matches, whose definition this would effect. It doesn't take large leaps in logic to see the consequences of this.

 

[Kepekley23]

I agree with what Dragon said.

 

[Sera_EX]

Dragon summed up my thoughts on the matter really. And I still agree with Dargoo.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Sera that kinda makes less sense honestly. A really high end character of one tier can realistically fight a baseline of the succeeding tier.

 

[DemonGoddessLiltih]

Even in actual series you see low tier characters not getting one shot by supposed ppl multiple tiers above them. Lol. Which is why it's sometimes hard to take serious when ppl say "one shot, higher AP". So when ppl don't upgrade characters for not getting one shot, it's hard to truly believe stuff like that. Like yoruichi apparently 7-A, but an arrow from ishida she was fine after. NNT is also a good example of this. Diane tanking stuff from mael.. I don't even think it's just an issue with PIS, but that's just how it is in certain series. Dragon ball a good example too. Actually, every series is.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I should note that we aren't gonna please everyone. We need a standard, but not everyone is gonna agree. Either way, someone is gonna get their jammies ruffled.

Also we shouldn't just ignore what other sites say about us. There is more than just not wanting to cater to them. There is also the fact that at times, despite how rude they can be, that have legit criticisms. That's just me though, don't really care enough to go into detail on that.

 

[Overlord775]

I agree with dragon, we need a standard to give user a general idea of what is considered an one shot worthy AP gap

 

[Kepekley23]

It's not like anyone here is going to keep on reading a criticism of VBW unbiasedly if they see their name being dissed, anyway. That's something I'm sure of.

Anyway, whatever about changes and all. VBW's stance on calcs being as strict as the OBD's is a compliment to me and not an insult.

 

[Kaltias]

Overall, there is no need for a rule. A standard is an option that is useful. But the standard is not the rule and should be flexible to allow exceptions to it.

That's pretty much what I was saying tbh.

I want the standard in place first. Afterwards, case by case kicks in and we try to apply in the best possible way.

But you can't do step 2 without step 1

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

But you can't do step 2 without step 1

Not with that attitude you can't. You quitter. ovo

 

[Sera_EX]

What? But that's not the case of difference of 10 times? My head is starting to hurt.

 

[Kepekley23]

> Not with that attitude you can't. You quitter. ovo

Hey. Nobody likes a quitter.

 

[Kaltias]

The difference of 10 times is a guideline.

It's a "Keep in mind that A can one shot B, or heavily cripple them at the very least".

It isn't "up to 9,99 times it's fair, 10,1 is a stomp"

 

[DMUA]

It's a general idea for the range, not an exact science.

Like this whole website in general honestly

 

[Kaltias]

It's a general idea for the range, not an exact science.

This

 

[DMUA]

How dare you snip out that bottom part it's the most accurate part

 

[Andytrenom]

I still think 7.5x is better for the value....

 

[DemonGoddessLiltih]

If you take an attack thousands of times above your dura without being turned into a blood stain it's PIS.

This is what I call "paying too much attention to detail." This is fiction not irl, Problems occur when you try to go 100% off feats and stuff. Personally I dislike the whole "this character is 30 megatons". Like this character is exactly this many tons. It doesn't look right relying on a calculation and saying something like "this character is exactly this strong" debating this with someone outside the wiki they are gunna look at you like you crazy. I learned my lesson from that.

Paying too much attention to detail is like this calc that puts batman at what Mach 10? For catching a baseball up close? And I'm just like.. you thinking wayy too hard about something that isn't that serious. The reason why characters tank attacks from ppl with higher AP, all the time, is because we try to give characters definitive tiers when we don't know how strong they are. Imo, Likely is always better than having a direct tier for a character.. I like having a general idea of how strong a character is, as opposed to saying something like "this character is 6000 tons in AP". Cause we really don't know what tier they truly are, but ppl go directly by the numbers. And when you try to debate, ppl will be like "6x AP advantage, character B can't cause any harm to character A. And character A one shots with all his abilities." When in fiction, this is contradicted all the time. I used to be all for higher AP equals one shot, but nah, this is just fiction, that's contradicted in every series in every case.

 

[DMUA]

>Thinking way too hard

No we're just thinking. Even if PIS can sometimes be needed to have a plot, it's still stupidity that is induced by a plot. Tanking attacks that much over your dura is PIS.

What kinda backwater estimation crazy place do you come from? Yeah, it's not serious, it's not like this wiki is our entire lives. Staff members have to deal with their own stuff so often it's almost a meme. It's just, when they come here, they're prepared to not be serious and do a calc like this with a straight face because that's their hobby.

If I didn't get the point at all, it's probably because that's all I could comprehend from that.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

@Assalt
Not really, other than Sans. Reporting for stomp matches was always a thing, but it was never ban worthy anyway.

When did I make a stomp match?

 

[DMUA]

Wrong Sans

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Not you, there was another Sans before you.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Oh, my bad.

 

[DMUA]

Either way, this thread is pretty messy and looks to be heading for the worse, we've already agreed on a guideline of x10, let's just close it and call it a day, unless we're gonna talk about how to word this on the One-Shot page, by which case, I'll suggest

"While how much power a One Shot usually takes in fiction is extremely variable and inconsistent, judging by what it takes to one shot someone in real life, the general range for what a one shot usually is is about 10x more attack potency then someone's durability"

 

[DemonGoddessLiltih]

@DMUA no, that wasn't it sorry

 

[Kepekley23]

@DMUA

'Think that shutting down discussion when several people still have questions isn't that good of a idea.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Okay, no more derails. And also let's keep profanity or "3rd Commandment breaks" toned down, since that's really necessary, with the latter actually being offensive to some people.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Okay, but that is really irrelevant to the discussion. We are not asking if anyone likes speed equilization or not, we're asking of an AP gap to consider a one-shot exists or not.

I am fairly certain the majority agree it does, the question is now what it is specifically and where to include the consensus.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Matt and Kep, can you please step in now and remove all this off-topic discussion? (Including your own comments :v)

 

[Kepekley23]

I've done a major wipe.

 

[Zzsax]

AP is an important factor but simply point our finger at a mere difference factor of X to completely negate the entire debate is not always a solution. It may be when virtually no participant of the thread has any form of hax or other means to affect the opponent in any way and we are pitting two characters against each other who have no other ability outside their AP.

In addition a gap of 2-5 times for the most part still is within the same tier, meaning both participants are in the general ballpark.

And when people are in the general ballpark we then further look at how they get their scaling. Was it an utmost casual attack when they performed the feat? Was it a special technique? Was it a general punch? A last resort? If they withstood a certain AP value, have they withstood so without any form of damage? Have they merely survived? Were they bruised? Heavily injured?

Simply saying: Oh this guy is 40 X and the other is 200X all arguments are redundant is not applicable for the most part due to these reasons. Someone who can at max withstand 200X is not automatically completely immune to any attack below that threshold. Someone who can dish out 200X with specific moves does not automatically get that scaling for each and every of his bread and butter moves.

I havent gone into detail with hax, which completely shake up the entire thing even further, once, because they often ignore general durability rules and second because in a match without knowledge and IC rules even someone who gets the 200X can quickly fall to a 40X character who uses hax the other has no defense about. One might as well turn the tide and say: character with 40X has a specific hax move which the other, who has 200X, cant defend against - lets call it a stomp.

VSbattles are not a numbers comparison. They are debates where we ponder each individuals characteristic, physical/magical prowess (usually by referring to calcs), special abilities and synergies against each other and in the end decide on a more likely winner.

Doing anything else completely negates the reason for the existance of the vsbattles subsection.

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