An issue with the classification of precognition

[Wokistan]

Edit: While Dragon Ball files made me remember to make this, the thread's topic has now shifted to the more general issue of classifying precog.

So, Goku and Gogeta currently have the power of Precognition listed, due to this: By predicting Hit's movements by analyzing his style, Goku was able to react to his attacks even when he stopped time.

The issue is, this... isn't precog. This is just regular prediction, better suited as a skill feat than a listed ability. Goku isn't seeing the future here, he's just good enough at fighting to properly guess Hit's next move and react in advance.

These aren't the only profiles with faulty justifications like these, and if I see more I'll add them to the list so hopefully either justifications can be improved or we can remove an incorrect ability.

Profiles
Son Goku (Dragon Ball Super) Gogeta (Dragon Ball Super) Garou Yujiro Hanma Captain America Archer (Fate/stay night) Hajime Hinata Uzu Sanageyama

 

[AguilaR101]

it may be based on reading the minute body movements of an opponent, predicting their actions through observatio

It falls under precog according to the page.

 

[GyroNutz]

Our current Precognition page states:

"Precognition may be based on any number of factors; it may be based on reading the minute body movements of an opponent, predicting their actions through observatio, mathematical predictions, or through some unspecified magical or astronomical means, among any other number of abilities."

So predicting your opponent via sheer skill/intelligence is currently counted as Precognition. Should this be changed?

 

[IDright]

Precognition is fine tbh

 

[RotofBots]

But this is a form of precognition as shown on the Precognition page:

"Precognition may be based on any number of factors; it may be based on reading the minute body movements of an opponent, predicting their actions through observatio, mathematical predictions, or through some unspecified magical or astronomical means, among any other number of abilities."

Precog doesn't always have to be through some magical ability.

And other profiles on the wiki have precognition for similar reasons.

Edit: Ninja'd

 

[DMB_1]

Maybe we should make sub-types of precognition.

I was planning to do something like that, but then my suddently computer crashed and I lost all progress...

 

[Wokistan]

That seems pretty inconsistent with what's stated before on the page, with it being defined as "The ability to see the future". This would also mean that anyone with some proficiency in fighting would qualify for precog as predicting your opponent is an integral part of combat, which applies to a lot of profiles. It makes more sense to refine the definition.

"It's on a lot of profiles" isn't an argument. Something being prevalent doesn't make it right.

 

[Wokistan]

Also note that this isn't something that would end up changing what we actually consider these characters capable of. Goku still had the combat skill to fight Hit regardless of timestop. It's a classification change.

 

[AguilaR101]

Then the page itself is contradictory, this isn't an issue with the profiles but with the ability being poorly defined by the first paragraph.

 

[DMB_1]

Maybe we should make sub-types of precognition.
I was planning to do something like that, but then my suddently computer crashed and I lost all progress...

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

TBF a lot of powers need sub-types. I planned on revising plot manipulation.

 

[GyroNutz]

Then the page itself is contradictory, this isn't an issue with the profiles but with the ability being poorly defined by the first paragraph.

this

 

[Wokistan]

Yeah I agree with you two with the general sentiment that the page is not up to par. I don't think regular prediction should count as precog considering that it would apply to basically anyone with combat experience at all, though.

DMB if you remember kinda the outline of what you had, I may be able to help out. On break rn.

 

[Newendigo]

There are other characters with the same description, such as Garou, Yujiro Hanma, Captain America, Archer, between others.

 

[DMB_1]

Basically:

• Pseudo-Precognition: Being able to predict future advents through experience, knowledge or studies (may require prep-time to predict advents in the far future)

• Sensorial Pregogntion: Precognition through Extrasensory Perception, like a 6th sense, or through dreams/visions (it kind of merges with Clairvoyance).
• Mental Precognition: Predicting a person/s future actions via Telepathy and/or Mind Reading.

• Temporal Precognition: Predicting Future advents by directly looking at the future or based on Fate.

• Cosmic Precognition: Predicting Future advents thanks to Cosmic Awareness of all of reality and/or other realities/timelines. Usually results in Nigh-Omniscience.

Just a draft, I may merge a type or two.

I'll start making a blog tomorrow if possible.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Perhaps change the name to something more universal.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

I think DMB's suggestion is actually pretty good.

 

[HST_Master]

I agree with DMBs suggestion as well

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Perhaps change the name to something more universal.

I'm referring to the name of the thread when I say this. I agree with what DMB said.

 

[Antoniofer]

Technically there's only two types of precognition (at least that I known): Intuitive and Future Vision. Intuitive is performed when the user understand the current situation and knowns to what event can lead; meanwhile the Future Vision works by perceiving a future event by looking directly into it (other types are less directly).

 

[Elizhaa]

Technically there's only two types of precognition (at least that I known): Intuitive and Future Vision. Intuitive is performed when the user understand the current situation and knowns to what event can lead; meanwhile the Future Vision works by perceiving a future event by looking directly into it (other types are less directly).

I agree.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

What would precog done through sound manipulation fall under? Cobra (Erik) is an example.

 

[Wokistan]

That file has no precog listed, so I can't really give my opinion. Mind providing context?

 

[Ogbunabali]

He can basically "hear" your thoughts and predict what you're going to do.

 

[Elizhaa]

He can basically "hear" your thoughts and predict what you're going to do.

This feat is just Telepathy and it is on Cobra (Erik)'s profile as Mind Reading.

 

[Antoniofer]

If someone known what its opponent thinks by reading its mind or its equivalent then is not quite precog, the user didn't use its intuition, instinct or seen/heard the future.

 

[DMB_1]

Yeah, I was planning to add precognition through telepathy/actual mind reading too ("Mental Precognition").

I'll add it to my previous post.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally think that the first post makes sense.

 

[Elizhaa]

Antvasima, to be honest, I think AguilaR101's point makes sense. The feats fall under precognition's definition nevertheless.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, they are not time related at least.

 

[Elizhaa]

Well, it is the prediction feat that count,

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I will definitely say that the Precognition page needs to be revised as it's contradicting itself. The first part makes it out like the ability is defined by actually seeing parts of the future but then its second part tries broaden that definition only to really end up backpeddling on the original definition.

Someone like Son Goku is just making educated guesses. He can't actually see the future.

Someone like the Darth Bane from Star Wars can actually see but uses his experience to narrow down the possibilities of what's going to happen.

DMB 1's draft of the different forms of Precognition makes the most sense, IMHO and would get rid of the contradiction on the page.

 

[Wokistan]

But to rate ordinary prediction as precog is to give precog to basically anyone decent at fighting or other competition. Predicting the actions of others is an integral part of these activities.

 

[Antvasima]

Wokistan makes a good point.

 

[Jinsye]

Hajime still has some form of precog btw.

He's the Ultimate Clairvoyant and can see the future

 

[Antoniofer]

Intuition, Danger Sense and Instintive Reaction should fall in another category that isn't precognition, for instance they aren't affected by Type 2 Acausality.

 

[Newendigo]

Yeah, I was planning to add precognition through telepathy/actual mind reading too ("Mental Precognition").

This should not added at all.

f the opponents is literally telling what its their next move (Conscious or unconscious), then you are not sensing the future, not even prediction or instict, not even any form of analysis, the opponent is telling you what is going to happen.

 

[Elizhaa]

Yeah, I was planning to add precognition through telepathy/actual mind reading too ("Mental Precognition").

This should not added at all.
f the opponents is literally telling what its their next move (Conscious or unconscious), then you are not sensing the future, not even prediction or instict, not even any form of analysis, the opponent is telling you what is going to happen.

I agree with this point.

 

[AguilaR101]

But to rate ordinary prediction as precog is to give precog to basically anyone decent at fighting or other competition. Predicting the actions of others is an integral part of these activities.

big whoop, predicting movements is nothing special.

 

[Elizhaa]

But to rate ordinary prediction as precog is to give precog to basically anyone decent at fighting or other competition. Predicting the actions of others is an integral part of these activities.

big whoop, predicting movements is nothing special.

I agree.