An issue I have regarding Raava and Vatuu's profiles

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Under the weakness section of both Raava and Vatuu's profile, this is stated:
"S/he can be temporarily killed if s/he is disintegrated, but s/he will revive, s/he probably can be killed if s/he fuses with a human and said human is killed in the Avatar State."
This is pure speculation from whoever added this and has never been verified in either series. Aang was temporarily killed while in the avatar state and was brought back to life by the spiritual oasis water. The tie-in game "Escape from the Spirit World" confirms he had to link-up with some of his past lives to restore his ability to connect with "the avatar spirit", but there's no indication that Raava was destroyed.

I propose that this line should be removed.

 

[Antvasima]

@Eficiente @Theglassman12 @DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa

What do you think about this?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, there are plenty of hypotheticals that appear to get retconned. I do like Legend of Korra despite some note worthy issues and agree that plenty of details in the lore getting retconned left and right after all these years of being used to things TLA taught us can often cause confusions.

However, Raava actually was momentarily killed by Vaatu during season 2 only for her to get brought back from the dead in season 4. We don't even know if all those past lives/souls of the avatar actually died and it was believed the Avatar cycle ceased to exist during that part, but part 4 gave us hope about that not being the case. So in other words, I don't really mind if this weakness gets removed. But I recall @ProfessorKukui4Life was also someone who might know details.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the reply.

@ProfessorKukui4Life

Would you be willing to help us out here please?

 

[Antvasima]

@LephyrTheRevanchist @EmperorRorepme @CinnabarManx421 @Edenstar @Gilad_Hyperstar

Your help would also be appreciated here.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Under the weakness section of both Raava and Vatuu's profile, this is stated:
"S/he can be temporarily killed if s/he is disintegrated, but s/he will revive, s/he probably can be killed if s/he fuses with a human and said human is killed in the Avatar State."
This is pure speculation from whoever added this and has never been verified in either series. Aang was temporarily killed while in the avatar state and was brought back to life by the spiritual oasis water. The tie-in game "Escape from the Spirit World" confirms he had to link-up with some of his past lives to restore his ability to connect with "the avatar spirit", but there's no indication that Raava was destroyed.

I propose that this line should be removed.

Wasn't Aang in a comatose state? Pretty sure that in Escape from the Spirit World (where Aang meets Roku, Kyoshi, Kuruk and Yangchen), Yue stated that the Avatar spirit is damaged, and if Aang will not escape the spirit realm in time, he'd die and the connection will break

Katara saved Aang from near death, but Aang didn't actually die

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

However, Raava actually was momentarily killed by Vaatu during season 2 only for her to get brought back from the dead in season 4.

...What? Raava was revived in the very next episode, not in Book 4. Jinora did her astral projection orb thing on Unavaatu; this somehow sped up Raava's rejen and allowed Korra to withdraw Raava from Vaatu. They remerge with each other shortly afterward You're thinking of when Korra was overcoming her ptsd and couldn't reconnect with her during the majority of Book 4.

Katara saved Aang from near death, but Aang didn't actually die

I'm not sure whether the writers have ever confirmed whether he temporarily died or not. Keep in mind that Escape from the Spirit World takes place after Katara used the water from the spirit oasis on Aang to revive him, as the game is said to take place between books 2 and 3. Aang does say in the book 3 premiere "I wasn't just knocked out. It was worse than that. I was gone. But you brought me back." The series was pretty stringent about not being able to say "die" or "killed" during serious moments.
Well, regardless of whether he actually died or not, as you said Aang would die if he got trapped in the spirit world and the avatar connection would break, but it doesn't say anything about the avatar spirit itself (Raava) dying.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

...What? Raava was revived in the very next episode, not in Book 4. Jinora did her astral projection orb thing on Unavaatu; this somehow sped up Raava's rejen and allowed Korra to withdraw Raava from Vaatu. They remerge with each other shortly afterward You're thinking of when Korra was overcoming her ptsd and couldn't reconnect with her during Book 4.

Yeah, but Raava was still killed. You're not wrong that she got revived in the next episode, but as Raava said herself, as long as Vaatu exists, she can't be permanently gone as they always co-exist. That said, the only thing Jinora did was accelerating Raava's revival and allowing Korra to bring her back

I'm not sure whether the writers have ever confirmed whether he temporarily died or not. Keep in mind that Escape from the Spirit World takes place after Katara used the water from the spirit oasis on Aang to revive him, as the game is said to take place between books 2 and 3. Aang does say in the book 3 premiere "I wasn't just knocked out. It was worse than that. I was gone. But you brought me back." The series was pretty stringent about not being able to say "die" or "killed" during serious moments.
But yeah, as you said Aang would die and the avatar connection would break, but it doesn't say anything about the avatar spirit itself (Raava) dying.

Aang was in a near death state, like some sort of a comatose state during that time. This is why he said he wasn't just knocked out. It was said many times in the show that if an Avatar dies in the Avatar state, the Avatar spirit (Raava) would die as well and the cycle will break

Besides, when Unalaq became the Dark Avatar, after killing Raava, Vaatu fully took over Unalaq's body while Unalaq was in the Dark Avatar state and became UnaVaatu. When UnaVaatu was erased, both Vaatu and Unalaq were dead, and considering Unalaq never dropped from the Dark Avatar state, it's cleat that killing Unalaq and Vaatu would end both of them and prevent the Dark Avatar from being reborn, much like how killing an Avatar in the Avatar state will kill Raava too and prevent a new Avatar to be born following the current's death

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Yeah, but Raava was still killed. You're not wrong that she got revived in the next episode, but as Raava said herself, as long as Vaatu exists, she can't be permanently gone as they always co-exist. That said, the only thing Jinora did was accelerating Raava's revival and allowing Korra to bring her back

Aang was in a near death state, like some sort of a comatose state during that time. This is why he said he wasn't just knocked out. It was said many times in the show that if an Avatar dies in the Avatar state, the Avatar spirit (Raava) would die as well and the cycle will break

Roku just says that the avatar would "cease to exist", aka the fusion between a human and Raava. He doesn't say that the spirit itself will die. And even if Raava (or Vaatu) did die, my issue with the profiles as they are is that it makes it sound like if Raava/Vaatu are taken down while they have a host, they're dead for good. Which is not the case, as they will eventually regenerate. Granted, this takes such a long time (without outside interference at least, as seen from Jinora) that it's not really combat applicable.

 

[Antvasima]

@DarkDragonMedeus

My apologies for pinging you so frequently (I have a very high workload right now), but what do you think about the above posts?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Roku just says that the avatar would "cease to exist", aka the fusion between a human and Raava. He doesn't say that the spirit itself will die. And even if Raava (or Vaatu) did die, my issue with the profiles as they are is that it makes it sound like if Raava/Vaatu are taken down while they have a host, they're dead for good. Which is not the case, as they will eventually regenerate. Granted, this takes such a long time (without outside interference at least, as seen from Jinora) that it's not really combat applicable.

Raava does "die" if the Avatar is killed in the Avatar state, but she will be revived in case she's killed, as even if Vaatu or anyone else kill her, she'll grow inside Vaatu until she will emerge again

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Hecc, I should rewatch the show.

But from what I remember, Gilad is making more sense.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Raava does "die" if the Avatar is killed in the Avatar state

Can you give me a source on this, please.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Can you give me a source on this, please.

Here. This is also proven that when Korra erases UnaVaatu, the Dark Avatar cycle is broken as both Unalaq and Vaatu die (though Vaatu will return eventually)

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Here. This is also proven that when Korra erases UnaVaatu, the Dark Avatar cycle is broken as both Unalaq and Vaatu die (though Vaatu will return eventually)

....That's the exact same video I linked above.

Roku just says that the avatar would "cease to exist", aka the fusion between a human and Raava. He doesn't say that the spirit itself will die. And even if Raava (or Vaatu) did die, my issue with the profiles as they are is that it makes it sound like if Raava/Vaatu are taken down while they have a host, they're dead for good.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

This is also proven that when Korra erases UnaVaatu, the Dark Avatar cycle is broken as both Unalaq and Vaatu die (though Vaatu will return eventually)

I don't think that situation counts as an example as A: Unalaq didn't really exist as a human anymore when he was destroyed; he basically turned into a spirit that had the same body with Vaatu and B: They were destroyed simultaneously.

Sorry for the double-post, it wouldn't let me quote again when I tried editing the first one.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@DarkDragonMedeus

My apologies for pinging you so frequently (I have a very high workload right now), but what do you think about the above posts?

I also have a heavy workload, but no problem regardless. I think Gilad is making sense here.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

I don't agree with Gilad, but if we're keeping the line anyway, can we amend it to note that Raava/Vaatu will eventually regenerate inside the other? As it is, the profiles make it sound like if they're killed with a host they're dead permanently.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Medeus.

I don't agree with Gilad, but if we're keeping the line anyway, can we amend it to note that Raava/Vaatu will eventually regenerate inside the other? As it is, the profiles make it sound like if they're killed with a host they're dead permanently.

What do you think, @Gilad_Hyperstar ?

 

[Antvasima]

Also, given that Medeus accepted Gilad's points, what should we do here exactly?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Thank you for helping out, Medeus.

What do you think, @Gilad_Hyperstar ?

I agree with that. It was made very clear that they can't permanently kill each other. Even if Vaatu kills Raava, she'll grow inside of him until she'll eventually emerge again

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

I do want to say one more thing regarding whether killing an avatar in the avatar state kills Raava, and that's regarding the season 3 finale. The Red Lotus knows about Raava and Vaatu and their connection with each other, and they know that Vaatu was defeated in the previous season. So they should know that killing Korra in the AS would permanently destroy Raava and Vaatu, since Vaatu is still vanquished and regenerating inside Raava. You would think this would be important enough to bring up, and yet no one ever mentions it. Plus, as we saw when Zhao kills the moon spirit, killing a spirit destroys the object/concept they embody, so the red lotus would have known that they would be destroying the concepts of order and chaos themselves, and subsequently getting rid of important aspects of the world. Again, since none of this is ever brought up in the book 3 finale, I personally find it hard to believe that killing and AS avatar kills Raava.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I don't think you can equate the moon spirit to Raava or Vaatu. Or that they work the same way

Besides, this is plain wrong because Vaatu killed Raava in the Season 2 Finale, and like she said to Wan, he can't get rid of her permanently, like how she can't get rid of him

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with that. It was made very clear that they can't permanently kill each other. Even if Vaatu kills Raava, she'll grow inside of him until she'll eventually emerge again

Okay. So do the current explanations regarding this in the relevant wiki profile pages need to be modified for improved clarity then?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Okay. So do the current explanations regarding this in the relevant wiki profile pages need to be modified for improved clarity then?

It should. If needed, clips can be provided for proof

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems good to me. Would you be willing to handle it please? Or is there anybody else here who is willing and able to properly do so?