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Alovenus and Ruphas downgrade

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ChlammyNirvalen said:
The final point is a blank white canvas containing the higher dimensions :

The final point. This was what Alovenus called the place outside of the universe. This was the end of everything and also the place of beginnings. Every world and every timeline was connected to this place.
In a sense, the universe was like a software within a computer. There would be various saved data within. Each of them formed a parallel world. Beyond the universe, there were many more universes (softwares). These were organized in a folder. But if one
were to look outside that folder, there would be more folders. If one were to go beyond the computer itself, there would be more computers lined up outside. This served as an analogy for the universe.
Everything came together in this divine space. It was a world that nobody except Alovenus could enter… At least, that was how it was supposed to be. It was a world of whiteness that spread infinitely towards the horizon. It would be meaningless to ask how far it extended, since the answer would be that it extended forever. This world
was endless and infinite.

Chapter 185.


Higher Dimensions :

Collision: The universe or parallel world contained by a single dimension is obliterated.

　Collision: A higher dimension created by an infinite number of dimensions coming together blows up and flies away as if it cannot endure.
　‎
　Collision - even the super-higher dimensions that encompass many higher dimensions are shattered beyond recognition.
　‎
　But it's not enough. It's still not enough. It's still not enough.

　The opponent in front of me is still intact. He's not even damaged at all.

　That's why I had to go higher, higher, higher, beyond the end!

　It was no longer a battle.

　It was not a battle anymore, but a game, a game that is possible only because two monsters live in the same realm. A joke.

Chapter 187.

Only by becoming a resident of a higher dimension can throw away the opponent's settings like tearing paper:

The ability to become an inhabitant of an even higher dimension and tear down your opponent's settings like ripping up a piece of paper?

Chapter 186.
Click to expand...

Become a resident of a higher dimension and toss away the opponent’s settings like a piece of waste paper?

From what you posted, this is the only thing that looks like higher dimension but is completely countered by this

Collision: A higher dimension created by an infinite number of dimensions coming together blows up and flies away as if it cannot endure

Making the first statement look more like hyperbole and even if we are to take it at face value, it wouldn't still be enough to prove R/F
 
Enter_Bluey said:
Cause on here, you can be infinitely above infinite and so on, so yeah it makes sense it got accepted here. Theres baselines, and they just continue to transcend above the baseline infinitely
Click to expand...
That’s literally the problem, the series say that they can transcend infinity and go into higher levels of infinity but then it goes on to also say that infinity x infinity = a higher level of infinity which doesn’t make any sense, the series is literally saying when you multiply infinity by infinity you get a higher level of infinity which makes no sense
 
Lormac_CC said:
Become a resident of a higher dimension and toss away the opponent’s settings like a piece of waste paper?

From what you posted, this is the only thing that looks like higher dimension but is completely countered by this

Collision: A higher dimension created by an infinite number of dimensions coming together blows up and flies away as if it cannot endure

Making the first statement look more like hyperbole and even if we are to take it at face value, it wouldn't still be enough to prove R/F
Click to expand...
Higher dimensions are treated like higher dimensions in here as they view a lower setting as paper. That could be confused for just plot, but it's not just referring to the goddess, but dimensions in general
 
RimUchiha said:
That’s literally the problem, the series say that they can transcend infinity and go into higher levels of infinity but then it goes on to also say that infinity x infinity = a higher level of infinity which doesn’t make any sense, the series is literally saying when you multiply infinity by infinity you get a higher level of infinity which makes no sense
Click to expand...
Thats accepted on this wiki, so no matter how much you say it doesn't make sense, it's possible here.
 
Anyways, I am done with this. I will create a revision CRT on how higher Dimensions are treated in the verse cause I find it weird. @AngelZushi made an agurment on the infinity stuff that I don't even understand it. I would love to see a simplified version
 
ChlammyNirvalen said:
Higher Dimensions :

Collision: The universe or parallel world contained by a single dimension is obliterated.

　Collision: A higher dimension created by an infinite number of dimensions coming together blows up and flies away as if it cannot endure.
　‎
　Collision - even the super-higher dimensions that encompass many higher dimensions are shattered beyond recognition.
　‎
　But it's not enough. It's still not enough. It's still not enough.

　The opponent in front of me is still intact. He's not even damaged at all.

　That's why I had to go higher, higher, higher, beyond the end!
Click to expand...
It's just 1C
 
RimUchiha said:
That’s literally the problem, the series say that they can transcend infinity and go into higher levels of infinity but then it goes on to also say that infinity x infinity = a higher level of infinity which doesn’t make any sense, the series is literally saying when you multiply infinity by infinity you get a higher level of infinity which makes no sense
Click to expand...
Well I believe there is a statement on infinity^infinity.
 
They acknowledge higher dimensions, and then state Alovenus can just casually stack, create, and manipulate these. Make a CRT indeed if you want to get that focused as the main topic, because it will be confused with people thinking you can't be infinitely above infinite, and so on. But it's possible on the wiki, and many verses can be that way, so idk what else to say to them
 
Enter_Bluey said:
They acknowledge higher dimensions, and then state Alovenus can just casually stack, create, and manipulate these. Make a CRT indeed if you want to get that focused as the main topic, because it will be confused with people thinking you can't be infinitely above infinite, and so on. But it's possible on the wiki, and many verses can be that way, so idk what else to say to them
Click to expand...
I am not making it now, I am kind of tired.
 
RimUchiha said:
That’s literally the problem, the series say that they can transcend infinity and go into higher levels of infinity but then it goes on to also say that infinity x infinity = a higher level of infinity which doesn’t make any sense, the series is literally saying when you multiply infinity by infinity you get a higher level of infinity which makes no sense
Click to expand...
If the verse shows that infinity×infinity = higher infinity(higher infinity that fit this site's standards) then it is fine. An example of this i believe is Homestuck. Difference between dimensions there is stated to be infinity(which wouldn't be enough for tier 1 because you need uncountable infinity) but the verse shows that there is RF difference between those dimensions. To that verse infinite difference = uncoutable infinite difference.
 
Not gonna read this entire thread, there is too much here, addressing the op.

The Infinite Claims​


The op in some points is attempting to apply physics to characters who blatantly disregard physics.

From what I’ve heard in the past, the bones of human beings on Earth were structured in such a way that it would be impossible for them to lift anything weighing over 500 kg.

In contrast, this world was just a mess. As long as an individual raised their level, they would be able to lift anything regardless of the weight.

Whilst I had never exerted my full strength, at the very least, I had enough arm strength to throw the Dragon King away with a single hand, so I was substantially weird myself.

The misgiving in all of this was most likely the laws of physics.

In Midgard, perhaps because the Goddess fired the laws of the physics-san or whatever, it was not doing its job at all.

Even if Benet or I were to go at a speed fast enough to lap around Midgard in a single second, everything would most likely remain fine. However, if such a thing were to be attempted on Earth, there would no doubt be a major catastrophe. In the worst-case scenario, that alone would be enough to erase all life on Earth-Chapter 154
Click to expand...

Why doesn't infinite mass destroy the whole universe and not just shake it? This is the same question as why when Ruphas and co go FTL Midgard isn't destroyed, cause physics doesn't work the same as Earth.

The residents of Alovenus world can disregard the natural laws, so again arguing that it's contradictory or whatever because this doesn't happen or whatever doesn't work

Ruphas raised the corners of her mouth and laughed fiercely. She was overwhelmingly higher than her in terms of scale, but they were already standing on the same tier. Both of them were fighting in the realm of God, beyond their world. In that case, what remained was simply a battle of wills.

It’s pointless to think about useless things like the limit of power and my own strength. There’s only one thing that will push me forward here. There’s no need for any reasoning or theory.

“You’re indeed very strong, but I’m even stronger.”

In that instant, Ruphas’ power exceeded the setting that had been put in place by Alovenus.

Multiverse? I don’t care about such things. Infinite status? Well, whatever. Subversion of the setting? So what?

“I’m stronger than all of them.” Everything depends on this.

Strangely enough, as Alovenus herself had said, there was no concept of strength in a battle of this level anymore. Concepts, providences, laws, and even limits were all things that had been created by God. Therefore, there were no such things in the realm of God. They would just have to create their own based on their whims.
They were like trying to paint their own colors on a blank white canvas and enforce their own truths. Alovenus could do that, so there was no reason why they couldn’t do it themselves. After all, they were residents of the world that had been created by Alovenus. For the same reason, natural laws didn’t apply to them. In hindsight, this was probably why the laws of physics didn’t apply to them at all.-Chapter 187
Click to expand...

And then the next sort of things are arguments that the characters can't be above infinity, which is wrong, as we accept characters on here as being above baseline 2-A for example, destroying an infinite series of infinite universes won't get you that, unless the verse proves it, but multipliers are allowed. This is like saying like SSJ 4 Goku from DBH isn't x number of things above 2-A, when his base is already 2-A, despite the verse showing he is actually stronger.

Like are we really just taking infinite at face value here, when our system of tiering are based on levels of infinity? A High 3-A character is infinite, but there are people more powerful than them, the laws of physics stop making sense after that too, to say Alovenus is infinite and thus she can't get any stronger or whatever is an oversimplification, what level of infinity is she operating on?

The white room being infinite being contradiced i don't even understand, the statement about the scale and dimensions they were in would be different, isn't referring to the White Room, but the difference in powerful between Alovenus and Ruphas, that they are operating on a very different scale, this is a fancy way of saying Alovenus is far more powerful, rather than saying the White Room operates by a size

In terms of appearance, she was just like Dina, to the extent of having the same features. Her hair color was different from Dina’s. Even though Dina’s blue hair had been replaced by golden hair, she still looked like Dina. She was wearing a white dress and draped in a blue cape while being wrapped in light.

Her status…Ruphas observed her status a little, but she soon realized that it was pointless. Her status was displayed, but that was all. Gauging her status was evidently pointless when there were strings of the number nine stretching all the way to the edge of the window. In any case, there should be no doubt that the numerical values were astronomical.

“I’m surprised. I didn’t expect you to come here.”

“I suppose so.”

Ruphas responded in a casual manner, but deep inside, she knew that she was being overwhelmed. She had known that the scale and dimensions they were in would be different, but when Ruphas finally faced her, she was still stunned by her vast power.-Chapter 187
Click to expand...

The googolplex stuff, is just an explanation of their abilities, that whatever their opponent throws at them, they will just strike with a multiple of that, this is not meant to say they aren't infinite, which even very lowballing, they are 2-A, and that's clearly not finite, it's to illustrate their transcendence.

Abilities​


Claims of omnipotence in fiction, often are just a means to say a character is very powerful, nobody should take Alovenus killing an omnipotent being or being omnipotent seriously, they clearly aren't, but doesn't mean we disregard all their feats.

The rest of the debunks are not good, Alovenus killing everything, penetration everything, etc etc, is true for like 1 second until Ruphas transcends her, this isn't that hard to understand, Alovenus isn't omnipotent, she isn't unbeatable, this is all relative, to a lower God ie Orm, Benetnash, this would all be true, Ruphas is just able to transcend above her.

And obviously nobody should take her abilities to the logical extreme, obviously she wouldn't be able to like kill a 1-A being, that's an NLF.

The issue here again i see is levels to things are being ignored, A 2-A being is "unbeatable", "omnipotent" etc in their own verse, if everyone else are just fodder, of course they aren't actually omnipotent, unbeatable etc, it just seems that way due to the massive power difference.

Reality > fiction layers and dimensions​


The characters current tiering isn't even based on the script but due to stuff like Alovenus creating universes that transcend others into insignifications, and higher dimensional beings being able to toss away their opponents settings like paper. So not really gonna address this.

Miscellaneous (more hyperboles and metaphors)​


One of the translators i am pretty sure said, something about multiverse being their own take on it, due to there not being like a kanji for it or something, more strictly it comes out to like higher universes or something. Regardless it doesn't really make much difference.

There not being a concept of strength, is in reference to Alovenus previous statements


“There’s no limit to the amount of power one can imagine. For example, we could argue about who, between the character of story A and the character of story B, is actually stronger. The character from story A might be able to destroy a universe, but story B could reveal that a single universe is just like a cell of a larger multiverse.”

Alovenus spoke, and the entire universe began to shrink. It became smaller and smaller…until it went beyond the limit, allowing Ruphas and the others to see the whole picture. Beyond the universe, a vast outer space expanded.

While the Goddess talked leisurely, Ruphas didn’t cease her attacks. She released one of Scorpius’ poisonous skills. Orm activated his breath weapon as well. However, the Goddess didn’t stop talking.

“And then, this is where story C comes in and states that the multiverse is just a single cell of an even larger cosmos.”

The multiverse shrank as well, revealing the overwhelming scale that the multiverse was just a cell of a cosmos.

“However, even with such an overwhelming setting, the strongest being within it could be unseated easily by the author (deity) with the creation of another character that could defeat the hitherto strongest character with a single punch. This would make the new character even stronger. Furthermore, the strongest D would be treated like a child by E, who couldn’t react to the speed of F, who could be killed one hundred times with a forehead flick by G, who couldn’t even be an opponent for H, who could be blown away with a sigh by K even if there were one hundred Hs…Hehehe, this is quite common in fiction, isn’t it?”
Click to expand...
This whole thing is like a dispute between children. Ruphas, your avatar probably did something similar when he was young, right? When there are two children, one would pretend to attack with a great beam, while the other would pretend to block it with a great barrier. But the former would say that this great beam could easily destroy a great barrier, while the latter would insist that it was an invincible barrier that could not be destroyed. The attacking side would selfishly and unreasonably argue that his beam could destroy even an invincible barrier, while the defending side would retort that his barrier would never ever break…And so there would be no end in sight.”

Alovenus giggled. It was a laugh that embodied absolute belief in her victory and her own power. She couldn’t lose. There was no reason for her to lose. Even if she really lost, she could simply fiddle with the setting. She could come up with so many ways to make herself the strongest by changing the setting, reason, and providence.

“Let me start with the conclusion…My power is infinite. I can overlay settings over pre-existing settings. For example, let’s say you somehow acquired unusual abilities and powers in order to defeat me. Then, I can simply resolve that like this. ‘Your unusual power won’t work on me, and I can still defeat you with one finger.’ Do you think this is ridiculous? Yes, that’s right. I won’t deny it. However, such an inexplicable statement can sometimes be stronger than a never-ending exchange.”-Chapter 187
Click to expand...

What's meant here is that it's not really about who is "stronger" here, it's who has the greatest will, strength is irrelevant all that matters is ego. You can blow a multiverse? Cool, i beleive i am stronger, and thus i become so, this is literally how their power works.

And again the rest of it is talking about laws applying to characters who blatantly disregard these things, Alovenus literally has all laws as apart of herself

It was easy to reach her destination. She flew through the sky, flew into space, and headed for the far reaches of the universe at a speed that was faster than light. Human-sized objects could not move faster than the speed of light. If that could somehow be achieved, it would cause a catastrophe.

But this didn’t matter to her since she was a singularity. Unbound by the laws of the universe, all laws and providence were contained within her. She could rewrite the common sense of the universe, apply new laws at her convenience, and forcefully push reason aside.-Chapter 182
Click to expand...

Why are we trying to apply logic to people beyond said thing, they can do nonsensical things, not to mention this is fiction where physics is disregarded all the time.

Time not existing applies only to the White Room, it very much exists within the multiverse, which is exactly what broke, this claim is misleading

“Hahahahaha! Hahahahahaha!”

With her emotions no longer suppressed, the Goddess gave a loud laugh that echoed throughout all of space-time, causing space itself to fracture and collapse.

In a parallel world somewhere, the native dinosaurs died without ever knowing the cause as their universe shattered. In another timeline that might have existed, a civilization, which was unlike that of Earth’s and was even able to participate in space wars, was erased without being able to do anything. Time itself completely collapsed, causing Dina and the others who were still waiting for Ruphas to return to freeze in time.

The shockwaves from the Goddess’ laughter erased half of the extant universes in the Final Point.

Eventually, the Goddess removed her hand from her mouth and spoke in a calm voice.-Chapter 187
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Tarang123 said:
That would still be countable infinity.
Click to expand...
They instantly transcend H1B.


This is already the realm of God. Then you can do anything.

The status of Ruphas instantly switches to "∞", and the character of ∞ continues to be displayed forever.

Infinite^infinite. If this happens, everything will be done with just your strength. The Multiverse becomes dust and disappears just because it exists.

Chapter 187.
 
Celestial_Pegasus said:
Not gonna read this entre thread, there is too much here, addressing the op.

The Infinite Claims​


The op in some points is attempting to apply physics to characters who blatantly disregard physics.



Why doesn't infinite mass destroy the whole universe and not just shake it? This is the same question as why when Ruphas and co go FTL Midgard isn't destroyed, cause physics doesn't work the same as Earth.

The residents of Alovenus world can disregard the natural laws, so again arguing that it's contradictory or whatever because this doesn't happen or whatever doesn't work



And then the next sort of things are arguments that the characters can't be above infinity, which is wrong, as we accept characters on here as being above baseline 2-A for example, destroying an infinite series of infinite universes won't get you that, unless the verse proves it, but multipliers are allowed. This is like saying like SSJ 4 Goku from DBH isn't x number of things above 2-A, when his base is already 2-A, despite the verse showing he is actually stronger.

Like are we really just taking infinite at face value here, when our system of tiering are based on levels of infinity? A High 3-A character is infinite, but there are people more powerful than them, the laws of physics stop making sense after that too, to say Alovenus is infinite and thus she can't get any stronger or whatever is an oversimplification, what level of infinity is she operating on?

The white room being infinite being contradiced i don't even understand, the statement about the scale and dimensions they were in would be different, isn't referring to the White Room, but the difference in powerful between Alovenus and Ruphas, that they are operating on a very different scale, this is a fancy way of saying Alovenus is far more powerful, rather than saying the White Room operates by a size



The googolplex stuff, is just an explanation of their abilities, that whatever their opponent throws at them, they will just strike with a multiple of that, this is not meant to say they aren't infinite, which even very lowballing, they are 2-A, and that's clearly not finite, it's to illustrate their transcendence.

Abilities​


Claims of omnipotence in fiction, often are just a means to say a character is very powerful, nobody should take Alovenus killing an omnipotent being or being omnipotent seriously, they clearly aren't, but doesn't mean we disregard all their feats.

The rest of the debunks are not good, Alovenus killing everything, penetration everything, etc etc, is true for like 1 second until Ruphas transcends her, this isn't that hard to understand, Alovenus isn't omnipotent, she isn't unbeatable, this is all relative, to a lower God ie Orm, Benetnash, this would all be true, Ruphas is just able to transcend above her.

And obviously nobody should take her abilities to the logical extreme, obviously she wouldn't be able to like kill a 1-A being, that's an NLF.

The issue here again i see is levels to things are being ignored, A 2-A being is "unbeatable", "omnipotent" etc in their own verse, if everyone else are just fodder, of course they aren't actually omnipotent, unbeatable etc, it just seems that way due to the massive power difference.

Reality > fiction layers and dimensions​


The characters current tiering isn't even based on the script but due to stuff like Alovenus creating universes that transcend others into insignifications, and higher dimensional beings being able to toss away their opponents settings like paper. So not really gonna address this.

Miscellaneous (more hyperboles and metaphors)​


One of the translators i am pretty sure said, something about multiverse being their own take on it, due to there not being like a kanji for it or something, more strictly it comes out to like higher universes or something. Regardless it doesn't really make much difference.

There not being a concept of strength, is in reference to Alovenus previous statements





What's meant here is that it's not really about who is "stronger" here, it's who has the greatest will, strength is irrelevant all that matters is ego. You can blow a multiverse? Cool, i beleive i am stronger, and thus i become so, this is literally how their power works.

And again the rest of it is talking about laws applying to characters who blatantly disregard these things, Alovenus literally has all laws as apart of herself



Why are we trying to apply logic to people beyond said thing, they can do nonsensical things, not to mention this is fiction where physics is disregarded all the time.

Time not existing applies only to the White Room, it very much exists within the multiverse, which is exactly what broke, this claim is misleading
Click to expand...
yeahh celestial pegasus has explained everything and i think there is no hyperbole problem in yasei because that's the logic in the vsbattle wiki and can't be connected to the real world
 
all of yasei's supporters have done an explanation which I think is able to refute what the OP said, especially for those who say 3A, H3A, 2A it really doesn't make sense just because the infinite is considered a hyperbole
 
Tarang123 said:
I was merely saying that it seemed like it was based on countable infinity, but if not then the thread can honestly be closed.
Click to expand...
infinite^infinite can't be counted anymore because the context is infinite multiplied by infinite, it's not logical but on the vsbattle wiki it can be
 
Shuna said:
infinite^infinite can't be counted anymore because the context is infinite multiplied by infinite, it's not logical but on the vsbattle wiki it can be
Click to expand...
Okay, that’s still countable infinity. It’s accessible by stacking countable infinity again, which is not how higher dimensions should work.
 
Shuna said:
infinite^infinite can't be counted anymore because the context is infinite multiplied by infinite, it's not logical but on the vsbattle wiki it can be
Click to expand...
That simply mean it's above baseline 2-A, characters like Madoka are infinte^infinite ^infinite and they are considered to be 2-A above baseline still don't see for how it's tier 1 tbh
 
The idea of a higher dimension is that amping the previous dimension by infinity isn’t enough to reach the higher dimension. Otherwise, High 3A and Low 2C would be the same thing
 
Tarang123 said:
The idea of a higher dimension is that amping the previous dimension by infinity isn’t enough to reach the higher dimension. Otherwise, High 3A and Low 2C would be the same thing
Click to expand...
Yeah characters like Madoka are infinte^infinite ^infinite and yet they are considered only above baseline 2-A
 
That's simply buruh, alovenus or ruphas can universally affect divine realm which is L1A Structure...

Its legitimate for L1A tier.
 
I'm not sure if its assumed their reaching higher dimensions by default, no they're transcending inside the tier further above baseline. They then transcend to low 1-A which is the peak for their tier. Ofc they will transcend infinitely into l1A, but wont become 1-A
 
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