A Wild Last Revisions Appeared Tier 1 Discussion Thread

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Since @GLHF22 has been inactive for months now, i am making this thread myself. Link to my cosmology blog here.

Wasn't sure whether to put this in here or in a CRT. Cause i am not really arguing to change anything, just putting forth all the evidence, so it can be discussed.

As i have stated many times, i don't really care for Alovenus and Ruphas Outerverse level+ status, however i do think how it's listed is wrong, they didn't start at that level, if the current rating stands it should be changed to something like Outerverse level initially, Outerverse level+ at her peak.

Anyway lets all discuss the ratings here based on the evidence i provided in the blog, personally i think 1-A should stay, neutral on 1-A+.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I agree with 1-A but iffy on 1-A+

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

If 1-A+ were to go, how far into 1-A would they be, you think?

 

[Ionliosite]

1-A+ is completely wrong, so I vehemently disagree with it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

1-A+ is super wrong, the statement used to justify it only implies X * X multiplication, and not X^X,

 

[Rikimarox2]

I'm all in for 1-A shit, the problem arises with 1-A+ fuckery.

Anyways, my thoughts are pretty much the same as Matthew.

 

[Overlord775]

the scans used for the 1-A+ rating were litterally faked/modified from what i heard

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

the scans used for the 1-A+ rating were litterally faked/modified from what i heard

Where do you here that from? Idk anything about that, maybe mistranslated or something since the profiles were made before the translations caught up so raws were used, which were checked by some multilingual member on here.

At least that's what i observed since i was against applying 1-A upgrades before translations caught up, so i didn't pay attention.

 

[Zaratthustra]

If I'm not wrong there were parts that were changed from raws to translation to give higher dimensionality. Each translation (be someone who knows Japanese or was used a different machine to translate it like: google translate, deepl, etc) was something different but not one gave the old translation that gave such a tier.

 

[Overlord775]

Where do you here that from? Idk anything about that, maybe mistranslated or something since the profiles were made before the translations caught up so raws were used, which were checked by some multilingual member on here.

At least that's what i observed since i was against applying 1-A upgrades before translations caught up, so i didn't pay attention.

CrimsonStarFallen

also are you sure it wasn't you know, not accidental but instead a volontary action to wank the verse ?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Who knows, using raws are always murky to me, which is why i dislike it as a practice, i wanted to wait until the translations caught up, the other person didn't and admitted to wanting to create a 1-A verse, so maybe? But i am not a mind reader.

Anyway so far 1-A seems agreed here, 1-A+ disagreed.

 

[Ionliosite]

No, 1-A is also wrong, but at least not as blatantly wrong as 1-A+ is.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Ooo, mind telling me why the 1-A part is wrong? I always thought it was more than enough for 1-A.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Explain why 1-A is wrong.

 

[Overlord775]

dimesions not good enough, downgrade verse to 2-A ovo

 

[Ionliosite]

As Matt put it before, going by what's stated on that blog, the verse is "At least 1-B", since the whole infinite recursion of universes the size of cells to larger universes isn't 1-A, and the infinity * infinity quote is also nowhere near enough of a qualifier. I'll have to check what else Ultima said on Discord about it not being 1-A, but this is just what I remember off the top of my head.

 

[00potato]

I fail to see your explanation.
You just say it isn’t and that Matt disagrees.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

The size of the cosmology is irrelevant, i explained in the blog why it's irrelevant, a God paints their whims on reality like painting on a blank paper, concepts, laws, limits, they create on a whim.

They are beyond the never ending exchange of imagining a stronger character through infinite recursion of universes the size of cells to larger universes.

This is what Alovenus creating the 1-B multiverse showed, that it's irrelevant how large it is, she creates it on a whim, it's meaningless.

 

[Ionliosite]

The size of the cosmology is irrelevant

This is a plain wrong statement, the size of the cosmology is everything when dealing with this kind of statements. And absolutely nothing of what you said is even related to being 1-A to begin with, in fact, I don't see how it would even count for High 1-B since the recurssion has a set size.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

You're ignoring what i said, Shinza Bancho got to be 1-A with only 24 dimensions or something like that.

The 1-B hierarchy is to illustrate a point, character A is a universe buster, B can destroy a universe which makes A's universe just a cell, rinse and repeat, this can go on and on, however it is meaningless to Alovenus, she is beyond this never ending exchanging.

 

[Ionliosite]

You're ignoring what i said, Shinza Bancho got to be 1-A with only 24 dimensions or something like that.

This is wrong once again, dimensions have nothing to do with why Shinza is 1-A to begin with.

The 1-B hierarchy is to illustrate a point, A is a universe buster, B can destroy a universe which makes A's universe just a C, rinse and repeat, this can go on and on, however it is meaningless to Alovenus, she is beyond this never ending exchanging.

Yes, that's why she is very high into 1-B.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Taiju or whatever is something that shapes reality, and is beyond any extensions of it, and this is equated to painting desires on reality.

I saw the thread that got them to 1-A way back, the reasoning was something like that, infinite dimensions don't exist within that verse (unless i am wrong), but you are implying that a verse can't be 1-A without that.

Alovenus isn't 1-B, concepts, laws and limits are all things God paints on reality on a whim, it can be whatever they want it to be, a battle between God's is beyond strength, God's are beyond the never ending exchange of infinite recursions of transcending universes. No matter what character you imagine through having 1 be above the other, transcending them into irrelevance, god's will always be beyond it.

Like how much more do you want?

 

[Ionliosite]

but you are implying that a verse can't be 1-A without that.

I never implied that, I in fact said the opposite, that a verse can be 1-A without infinite dimensions. When will people understand that dimensional tiering is dead and our last Tier 1 revision killed it?

Alovenus isn't 1-B, concepts, laws and limits are all things God paints on reality on a whim, it can be whatever they want it to be, a battle between God's is beyond strength, God's are beyond the never ending exchange of infinite recursions of transcending universes. No matter what character you imagine through having 1 be above the other, transcending them into irrelevance, god's will always be beyond it.

Like how much more do you want?

I want actual qualifications for 1-A. Nothing you said implies 1-A, being above a 1-B cosmology is just 1-B, it doesn't matter how easily they can reshape everyhting below them, the whole point of Tier 1 is of literal infinite differences, it would actually be a horrible anti-feat for her being 1-B if she couldn't do all you just said.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

God's reshaping everything below them isn't the point, the point is they will always be beyond any sort of hierarchy that can be imagined, and they can create any such hierarchy on a whim.

.

 

[Ionliosite]

the point is they will always be beyond any sort of hierarchy that can be imagined, and they can create any such hierarchy on a whim.

Yeah, the issue is, the actual cosmology for the verse is 1-B, so that's what we have to assume they can create. "Any sort of hierarchy that can be imagined" is a NLF, since this would actually imply they are Tier 0, you have to argue based on what's actually known of the cosmology because you get this otherwise.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

The tiering page under 1-A literally says "However, do note that a character can qualify for this rating even if their verse does not have an infinitely-layered or equivalent cosmology, as long as it is either stated, shown or left very obvious that the character in question already bypasses the very nature of such structures altogether, in a way that simply "stacking" more of them logically would not allow one to reach their level of power / size."

The cosmology being 1-B is irrelevant, all that needs to be shown is that the characters are beyond the nature of such structures entirely.

And i wasn't implying they are tier 0 cause they are beyond any hierarchy, that's misconstruing what i said, they are beyond any hierarchy of dimensions that can be imagined.

 

[Ionliosite]

The cosmology being 1-B is irrelevant, all that needs to be shown is that the characters are beyond the nature of such structures entirely.

Yeah, something you haven't shown. All you have proved so far is that they are on a higher level of 1-B that everything else that is on the verse.

Any i wasn't implying they are tier 0 cause they are beyond any hierachy, that's misconstruing what i said.

I know you wasn't implying it, I was just giving an example on why "any sort of hierarchy that can be imagined" is a NLF, since Tier 0 hierarchies are a very real thing due to baseline Tier 0 being the smallest mahlo cardinal.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

How have i not shown this? Alovenus talks about power escalation, with universes being transcending into insignificance by larger one, repeatedly, and says a stronger character can always be imagined, however her power is beyond that, doesn't matter what you can imagine through that, she will always be beyond it.

God's realm is beyond all concepts, laws, providences, limits etc. Those things are things God creates on their whim. They can be whatever God wants, they paint their whims on reality, like a painter with a blank canvas.

Alovenus can childishly use 1-B multiverses as disposable bombs, because it's meaningless to her, she will always be beyond whatever extension of these transcending multiverses that can be imagined.

This is as blatant as it gets for me.

 

[Ionliosite]

This is as blatant as it gets for me.

Yes, it is a very blatant trascendence of the verse. A completely different matter is that that isn't 1-A.

 

[Overlord775]

@Celestial_Pegasus

Seeing a universe as a cell doesn't make you dimesionally higher than it

 

[Ultima_Reality]

The size of the cosmology is irrelevant, i explained in the blog why it's irrelevant, a God paints their whims on reality like painting on a blank paper, concepts, laws, limits, they create on a whim.

They are beyond the never ending exchange of imagining a stronger character through infinite recursion of universes the size of cells to larger universes.

They aren't, by the way, at least not initially. In fact, Alovenus actually weaponizes the hierarchy of universes within universes which she created and makes Big Bangs and Big Crunches out of them. And, mind you, this was against Ruphas, Benetnash and Orm, the three of which were previously stated to be on the same level of existence as her when they stepped into the Domain of God / White Room, and who were also completely dwarfed in size by the hierarchy that Alovenus formed.

Alovenus ridiculed them, saying that all resistances were futile. Then, the light of the universe’s beginning (Big Bang) exploded around her. It wasn’t just once. Again and again, the universe was born as if it had been erased without exceptions, while a larger universe was born outside of it. There were even more further beyond…

Did she repeat the same thing a hundred times out of whim? In any event, Alovenus immediately abandoned the newborn universe by the point Ruphas and the others had become so small within it that they were like specks of dust.

“End of the World (Big Crunch), a hundredfold.”

Countless worlds were simultaneously destroyed. The scale had become too large to make any sense out of it. Alovenus herself probably wasn’t thinking too much about it. This tremendous power made the previous battles look like children’s play. This was the reason she was said to be omnipotent.

At least, that was what the Goddess had always thought. Therefore, Alovenus was now trembling with surprise unlike any she had experienced before. There were three intruders who had stepped into her own domain. They stood before her with the intention of having a decisive battle.

The concept of size did not exist in this place. After crossing over from the universe, Ruphas and the others were now on equal footing with Alovenus. Even though they were nothing more than dust in the universe, they had unmistakably come here as enemies

Beyond this would be a battle in the realm of God where everything happened according to one’s thoughts. The current realm could already be considered a battle of the gods by most people. Indeed, Benetnash and Orm were powerful enough to fight in this realm.

Adding onto that, the whole thing about the Ultimate Universe is Alovenus illustrating how she can increase her power to a higher level on a whim. She doesn't actually exist beyond any extensions of the hierarchy, but the number of layers which she creates is reflective of the level in which she's currently at:

“There’s no limit to the amount of power one can imagine. For example, we could argue about who, between the character of story A and the character of story B, is actually stronger. The character from story A might be able to destroy a universe, but story B could reveal that a single universe is just like a cell of a larger multiverse.”

Alovenus spoke, and the entire universe began to shrink. It became smaller and smaller…until it went beyond the limit, allowing Ruphas and the others to see the whole picture. Beyond the universe, a vast outer space expanded.

While the Goddess talked leisurely, Ruphas didn’t cease her attacks. She released one of Scorpius’ poisonous skills. Orm activated his breath weapon as well. However, the Goddess didn’t stop talking.

“And then, this is where story C comes in and states that the multiverse is just a single cell of an even larger cosmos.”

The multiverse shrank as well, revealing the overwhelming scale that the multiverse was just a cell of a cosmos.

“However, even with such an overwhelming setting, the strongest being within it could be unseated easily by the author (deity) with the creation of another character that could defeat the hitherto strongest character with a single punch. This would make the new character even stronger. Furthermore, the strongest D would be treated like a child by E, who couldn’t react to the speed of F, who could be killed one hundred times with a forehead flick by G, who couldn’t even be an opponent for H, who could be blown away with a sigh by K even if there were one hundred Hs…Hehehe, this is quite common in fiction, isn’t it?”

Alovenus concentrated light in her hands. This wasn’t just light. It had the power to take in countless universes and destroy worlds by the hundreds, thousands, and millions. This was the realm of God. There was just far too much of a difference in scale.

“This whole thing is like a dispute between children. Ruphas, your avatar probably did something similar when he was young, right? When there are two children, one would pretend to attack with a great beam, while the other would pretend to block it with a great barrier. But the former would say that this great beam could easily destroy a great barrier, while the latter would insist that it was an invincible barrier that could not be destroyed. The attacking side would selfishly and unreasonably argue that his beam could destroy even an invincible barrier, while the defending side would retort that his barrier would never ever break…And so there would be no end in sight.”

Alovenus giggled. It was a laugh that embodied absolute belief in her victory and her own power. She couldn’t lose. There was no reason for her to lose. Even if she really lost, she could simply fiddle with the setting. She could come up with so many ways to make herself the strongest by changing the setting, reason, and providence.

“Let me start with the conclusion…My power is infinite. I can overlay settings over pre-existing settings. For example, let’s say you somehow acquired unusual abilities and powers in order to defeat me. Then, I can simply resolve that like this. ‘Your unusual power won’t work on me, and I can still defeat you with one finger.’ Do you think this is ridiculous? Yes, that’s right. I won’t deny it. However, such an inexplicable statement can sometimes be stronger than a never-ending exchange.”

The power of Alovenus swelled further and triggered a universal explosion. Ruphas and the others tried their best to defend, erase, or assimilate the power. However, Alovenus flew over and flicked the three of them at the same time. Ruphas and the others immediately went on the offensive, but their attacks were easily evaded. Attacks with infinite speed should have ignored the entire process of hitting.

So, yeah, Alovenus normally only scales above whatever the topmost level of the hierarchy is, although I would be fine with her getting an "up to Low 1-A" high-end, or something of the sort, given how the White Room is a blank canvas in which any amount of levels can be inserted, and both Ruphas and Alovenus eventually became so powerful that they damaged the very structure of the place.

Ruphas’ sword broke the Goddess’ sword, and even sliced through the Goddess’ body. The slash tore through everything in its path and continued to fly on indefinitely. The slash, which seemed to cut even the Final Point open, became bigger as it flew on to a distant location—and eventually disappeared.

Naturally, the Goddess didn’t die because of this. Death would not come to her by any means except for suicide. Even if her soul was destroyed, erased without any traces left, or rendered non-existent, she would still return, calmly and brazenly.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Ionliosite You are limited Alovenus to 1-B, based on a feat of her creating a 1-B multiverse, which the entire point of was to show it's all arbitrary.

There is no NLF, we are given a clear explanation of what imagining a more power character entails, a larger universe transcending a smaller one into irrelevance, this is never ending, Alovenus is beyond whatever extension of this never ending transcendence can be imagined.

@Overlord775 All that needs to be proven is that they perceive them as akin to fictional constructs or something infinitesimal. Toaru got to be High 1-C for dimension with far smaller size that this.

The universe is a part of larger one, and this makes a character who can blow up the larger one stronger. There is an hieracchy here.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Ultima_Reality This i can actually agree with, restricting them to just 1-B, was what i am against.

 

[Ionliosite]

I can agree with that "up to Low 1-A" high-end as long as it is clear the hierarchy is 1-B.

 

[Overlord775]

@Celestial_Pegasus

Touaru is High 1-C because of direct 11-D statements

meanwhile a universe seeing another universe as a cell is just a higher level of 4-D/2-B

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I can agree with "1-B, possibly/likely low 1-A"

 

[Ultima_Reality]

The layers of universes are explicitly equated to higher dimensions transcending lower ones and perceiving them as scraps of paper by the verse, so, that's not really an issue.

 

[Overlord775]

okay then, but if you could point out the scan that says that it would be quite appriciated

 

[Ultima_Reality]

okay then, but if you could point out the scan that says it would be quite appriciated

There you go:

So what will you do next? An instant death attack that kills the opponent just by facing them? An ability to take away all of the opponent’s powers just by being present? A trait that always makes you stronger than your opponent? Turn back time to undo events? Become a resident of a higher dimension and toss away the opponent’s settings like a piece of waste paper? The power to nullify all kinds of abilities? An invincible barrier that can reflect any attacks at several times their original power? A constitution that manipulates the concept of victory and ignores the process to attain absolute victory? A cheat that instills the concept of defeat into the opponent to ensure absolute defeat for them? Or pure, unrivaled power that can penetrate and kill everything without exception?
Whatever is fine. Please use them until you are satisfied. They wouldn’t work anyway.”

 

[Rikimarox2]

Yeah, after seeing the scans, I agree with Ultima here.

BTW, since this technically isn't a CRT, it's a discussion thread. Do we have to make another thread in order for this to get through?

Or can we just do a lifehack and change the board to Content Revision?