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Alovenus and Ruphas downgrade

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Shuna said:
The End Point has no concept of size, which means it's beyond measure, no longer measured by size anymore, automatically superior to all "size".
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No character in fiction is beyond all extensions of size, otherwise Dark Tower would have never been downgraded lol. Them being beyond the concept of size would be applied to their own verse's cosmology, not all extensions of size, hence why we don't automatically view transcending the concept of dimensions as 1A.
 
Tarang123 said:
Okay, that’s still countable infinity. It’s accessible by stacking countable infinity again, which is not how higher dimensions should work.
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No, infinite^(infinite) would be an equivalent to the power set of N, which defines the every subset of it and makes it as large as R. R (or c, the notation of the cardinality of the continuum) is 1 dimension, it can't be smaller than aleph-1 as it can only be equal or bigger.

So yeah, infinite^infinite is uncountably infinite.
 
Shuna said:
Make it to 1A at least you have to transcend to the inaccessible level, This is Ruphas L-1A
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Issue I have is that if one encompasses a cosmology and any number of dimensions can be arbitrarily stacked or removed without changing the transcendence factor of said encompassing "thing", that's 1A. Obviously, just something I wanted to point out.
 
Tarang123 said:
Can you explain this a little better cause a "continuum" being called uncountable doesn't make it uncountably infinite in ontological size.
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The continuum is another name for the real number line. The quintessential uncountable set. But if you truly do need proof I can find it.
 
GreatIskandar14045 said:
No, infinite^(infinite) would be an equivalent to the power set of N, which defines the every subset of it and makes it as large as R. R (or c, the notation of the cardinality of the continuum) can't be smaller than aleph-1, it can only be equal or bigger.

So yeah, infinite^infinite is uncountably infinite, R is 1 dimension.
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Kind of. I possibly misread everything cause I didn't see that for some reason. I thought it was infinite x infinity, which isn't reaching aleph 1 any time soon. If it's actually infinity^infinity it should reach higher alephs, assuming that the previous one was like a lower dimension cause if it's just a countable infinity, then it's not reaching an uncountable infinity for a while.
 
Hmesko said:
The continuum is another name for the real number line. The quintessential uncountable set. But if you truly do need proof I can find it.
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When you say number line, that sounds a lot like countable infinity, which isn't anywhere near alephs in terms of size...
 
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Tarang123 said:
Oh....that's literally still countable infinity. That's literally aleph null lmao. That is not what we define as an uncountable infinity at all.
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I've never seen the cardinality of the real numbers referred to aleph null.

Under the CH it's literally aleph 1 and more generally it's denoted "C" which I don't think is considered = to aleph null but I'm not too sure.

Either way, the wiki's tiering system assumes the CH, so R is aleph 1 axiomatically.
 
Delta333 said:
It doesn't,literal paper in this context doesn't represent for fictional stuff or anything,also ppl keep ignore the fact that many lower dimensions can be one higher dimension,which is completely different with reality fiction relation
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Would it help if those dimensions were infinite in size.
 
Tarang123 said:
It is...aleph 1 literally can't be reached by it without the axiom of replacement.
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if you read on, it's irrelevant here anyway as the wiki assumes the CH, so any argument that R = aleph 0 would require a complete overall of the tiering system as it's currently structured.

So you can go do that now if you want
 
This has gone on for 4 pages, and probably will keep going with people arguing about countable and uncountable infinity, alephs, is this or that really tier 1 and what not.

Anyone trying to evaluate this, probably isn't gonna bother reading 4 pages, and the op didn't even propose a tier to be downgraded to, was just basically, all these mentions of infinity can't be true due to physics, despite fiction and the series itself ignoring that, and then a bunch of taking things too literally, like the omnipotent statements or unbreakable sword.

The meat of this really is the discussion about infinity^infinity and whether the stuff about paper qualifies for tier 1.

Really i think this should either be closed or remade with people who actually know the tiering system, being involved, cause honestly i am not gonna be spending hours going over this stuff.
 
Celestial_Pegasus said:
The meat of this really is the discussion about infinity^infinity and whether the stuff about paper qualifies for tier 1
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If it means anything, here are my two cents on some of the actually relevant bits:

RimUchiha said:
So these "higher dimensions" are actually just [at most countable] collections of lower ones.
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From where do you infer that the set formed by the lower dimensions is at most countable, though? Obviously, any given space can be represented as the union of uncountably-many objects of one dimension lower, so those higher dimensions being created by the "fusion" of lower ones doesn't inherently mean they aren't actual higher-dimensional spaces.

RimUchiha said:
And considering authors previous misuse of the word infinity, as well as:
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How does the usage of the word "many" preclude there being infinitely-many higher dimensional spaces comprising the one above, exactly?

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we actually use the statements regarding Alovenus holding the universe as a "script" as evidence for higher dimensions being at play here? Same thing with Alovenus and Ruphas' ability to modify the "setting" to become stronger. That's off of the two statements above, as well as the narration of the fight listing "Becoming an opponent of an upper world and crumpling your opponent like paper" among the things the two could do to surpass each other. Granted, I am paraphrasing, and don't have the scan in hand at the moment because I don't want to kill off my remaining brain cells by rereading this thing, so you're free to take this one with a grain of salt.
 
Script or Setting are very clearly used in a metaphorical manner, because Alovenus and Rufus' fight was part of the setting


The difference in power was even greater now. Ruphas’ power had completely surpassed that of Alovenus. As a result, Alovenus’ sword started to crack. Despite having the setting of being unbreakable, the setting that it could be shattered was repeatedly written over the previous setting. Even if the sword gained the setting to repair itself, it would just be erased immediately.
Click to expand...


“Eh!? It—It hurts!?”
“This is punishment for a naughty child. Seriously…I had to work so hard just for this one hit.”
“Wai—eh, is that all!? Did you really go so far just for that!?”
“Of course not. Anyway, rewrite that annoying script. A script that’s frowned upon by all of the characters in it isn’t even a script anymore.”
Click to expand...

Rewriting the setting was considered the same as rewriting the parameters of the fight to make an unbreakable sword breakable etc.
 
Pretty sure those are 2 separate instances being used there, the settings in the first quote is referring to Alovenus and Ruphas rewriting their settings/parameters to be above their opponent.

The 2nd bit is talking about the script that the world goes by. Ruphas entire goal was stop Alovenus script where the world is continually brought to brink of destruction, with the fate and what not of everyone, moving according to it.
 
Well it's been pretty long since I read this abomination it, so I will check the context of both statements again later since I am slightly busy at the moment
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we actually use the statements regarding Alovenus holding the universe as a "script" as evidence for higher dimensions being at play here? Same thing with Alovenus and Ruphas' ability to modify the "setting" to become stronger. That's off of the two statements above, as well as the narration of the fight listing "Becoming an opponent of an upper world and crumpling your opponent like paper" among the things the two could do to surpass each other. Granted, I am paraphrasing, and don't have the scan in hand at the moment because I don't want to kill off my remaining brain cells by rereading this thing, so you're free to take this one with a grain of salt.
Click to expand...
Higher dimensional being treating lower one as paper is what was used to prove reality fiction relationship when GLHF was still in this wiki
 
GreatIskandar14045 said:
No, infinite^(infinite) would be an equivalent to the power set of N, which defines the every subset of it and makes it as large as R. R (or c, the notation of the cardinality of the continuum) is 1 dimension, it can't be smaller than aleph-1 as it can only be equal or bigger.

So yeah, infinite^infinite is uncountably infinite.
Click to expand...
Yeah nice explanation sensei, i really appreciate you
 
Enter_Bluey said:
Ah yes, gods in Dies Irae existing beyond concepts, why are they talking and moving?! Downgrade to...actually what would that even downgrade to? Lol

Seriously though, many verses have this, existing outside concepts, or in a place with no concepts. That doesn't mean they won't be able to do anything, like Celestial said that would be an issue with the site, not the verse.
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Never said anything about downgrading the verse because of concepts, Celestial said the Final point didn’t have concepts and I was just saying it actually did.. no one is talking about downgrading a verse because of concepts
 
TheGunsFinalWrath said:
From what I understand and have seen for myself: What the OP posted in the first page, belongs to Comic-vine, and said thread from Comic-vine, was made to debunk Alovenus or "The Last Wild Boss Appeared"`s Outerversal scaling ON Comic-Vine (Or 1-A simply speaking). It wasnt directed towards VSBW anyways, and the OP pretty much stole the text and such and pasted it here- But back to the origin of this: This debunk was mostly made about the character named Alovenus, along with Ruphas. Its an downgrade towards the verse, but at the same time it mostly downgrades Alovenus.

You could read the original thread, which is from Comic-Vine if you dont mind, to get an idea of the original post's thoughts. However, as most has said: The debunk doesnt really fit the VSBW's criteria or something, however, some, or many of the stuff used in the OP could be used in a proper CRT instead. Either way, this thread is pretty much of an argument over a thread from a different site 🤷‍♂️

While it doesnt really fit the Wiki's standards, along with others who has said so as well if I remember correctly: It still points out the flaws of the verse, which in point makes Alovenus's Tier and Ruphas Tier - Questionable.
(In Vs Battle Wiki)

This is what I understand so far.

Here is where the original text originates from. (I can delete the link via editing my post if you dont want me to post the link here)
comicvine.gamespot.com

Alovenus (AWLBA) Disrespect thread - Gen. Discussion - Comic Vine

Table of contentsIntroductionThe "infinity" claimsExaggerated abilitiesReality > fiction layers and dimensionsMiscellaneous (more hyperboles and me
comicvine.gamespot.com comicvine.gamespot.com

Edit: Almost forgot to explain a bit more: There are people arguing against what the OP posted, as in, the one's that "Disagree" with it, while there are others that agree with what the OP said, and are arguing against the one's arguing against what the OP said (Those that Disagree)
Then there are like, few others that are neutral, but leaning towards agreeing with what the OP posted, or others that are just completely "neutral" in stance, I guess.

Another Edit: The original poster of that text/the thread basically, so to speak in his/her's summary, debunked the Outerversal scaling, to Multiversal (Not sure what exactly, but it seems to refer to mostly AP and stuff, like hax) and Infinite speed.
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Thank you, but I need a better summary regarding the actual arguments here than that to be able to involve any other staff members. Is somebody knowledgeable willing to provide it?
 
Celestial_Pegasus said:
Not gonna read this entire thread, there is too much here, addressing the op.

The Infinite Claims​


The op in some points is attempting to apply physics to characters who blatantly disregard physics.

Why doesn't infinite mass destroy the whole universe and not just shake it? This is the same question as why when Ruphas and co go FTL Midgard isn't destroyed, cause physics doesn't work the same as Earth.

The residents of Alovenus world can disregard the natural laws, so again arguing that it's contradictory or whatever because this doesn't happen or whatever doesn't work

And then the next sort of things are arguments that the characters can't be above infinity, which is wrong, as we accept characters on here as being above baseline 2-A for example, destroying an infinite series of infinite universes won't get you that, unless the verse proves it, but multipliers are allowed. This is like saying like SSJ 4 Goku from DBH isn't x number of things above 2-A, when his base is already 2-A, despite the verse showing he is actually stronger.

Like are we really just taking infinite at face value here, when our system of tiering are based on levels of infinity? A High 3-A character is infinite, but there are people more powerful than them, the laws of physics stop making sense after that too, to say Alovenus is infinite and thus she can't get any stronger or whatever is an oversimplification, what level of infinity is she operating on?

The white room being infinite being contradiced i don't even understand, the statement about the scale and dimensions they were in would be different, isn't referring to the White Room, but the difference in powerful between Alovenus and Ruphas, that they are operating on a very different scale, this is a fancy way of saying Alovenus is far more powerful, rather than saying the White Room operates by a size

The googolplex stuff, is just an explanation of their abilities, that whatever their opponent throws at them, they will just strike with a multiple of that, this is not meant to say they aren't infinite, which even very lowballing, they are 2-A, and that's clearly not finite, it's to illustrate their transcendence.

Abilities​


Claims of omnipotence in fiction, often are just a means to say a character is very powerful, nobody should take Alovenus killing an omnipotent being or being omnipotent seriously, they clearly aren't, but doesn't mean we disregard all their feats.

The rest of the debunks are not good, Alovenus killing everything, penetration everything, etc etc, is true for like 1 second until Ruphas transcends her, this isn't that hard to understand, Alovenus isn't omnipotent, she isn't unbeatable, this is all relative, to a lower God ie Orm, Benetnash, this would all be true, Ruphas is just able to transcend above her.

And obviously nobody should take her abilities to the logical extreme, obviously she wouldn't be able to like kill a 1-A being, that's an NLF.

The issue here again i see is levels to things are being ignored, A 2-A being is "unbeatable", "omnipotent" etc in their own verse, if everyone else are just fodder, of course they aren't actually omnipotent, unbeatable etc, it just seems that way due to the massive power difference.

Reality > fiction layers and dimensions​


The characters current tiering isn't even based on the script but due to stuff like Alovenus creating universes that transcend others into insignifications, and higher dimensional beings being able to toss away their opponents settings like paper. So not really gonna address this.

Miscellaneous (more hyperboles and metaphors)​


One of the translators i am pretty sure said, something about multiverse being their own take on it, due to there not being like a kanji for it or something, more strictly it comes out to like higher universes or something. Regardless it doesn't really make much difference.

There not being a concept of strength, is in reference to Alovenus previous statements

What's meant here is that it's not really about who is "stronger" here, it's who has the greatest will, strength is irrelevant all that matters is ego. You can blow a multiverse? Cool, i beleive i am stronger, and thus i become so, this is literally how their power works.

And again the rest of it is talking about laws applying to characters who blatantly disregard these things, Alovenus literally has all laws as apart of herself

Why are we trying to apply logic to people beyond said thing, they can do nonsensical things, not to mention this is fiction where physics is disregarded all the time.

Time not existing applies only to the White Room, it very much exists within the multiverse, which is exactly what broke, this claim is misleading
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Celestial Pegasus makes sense to me above.
 
Celestial_Pegasus said:
This has gone on for 4 pages, and probably will keep going with people arguing about countable and uncountable infinity, alephs, is this or that really tier 1 and what not.

Anyone trying to evaluate this, probably isn't gonna bother reading 4 pages, and the op didn't even propose a tier to be downgraded to, was just basically, all these mentions of infinity can't be true due to physics, despite fiction and the series itself ignoring that, and then a bunch of taking things too literally, like the omnipotent statements or unbreakable sword.

The meat of this really is the discussion about infinity^infinity and whether the stuff about paper qualifies for tier 1.

Really i think this should either be closed or remade with people who actually know the tiering system, being involved, cause honestly i am not gonna be spending hours going over this stuff.
Click to expand...
I am perfectly fine with if we close this thread now.
 
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