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Alovenus and Ruphas downgrade

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RimUchiha said:
The person who made this post was responding to a guy named MemeOx who was arguing with someone else about Alovenus being able to transcend infinity into higher levels (He was using feats from VSBW and using the scaling too, they also said he was someone popular on the site so..)
Click to expand...
you mean Ruksos(aka you)? He got so debunked on CV (by me and Several others) and came here instead so...
 
Celestial_Pegasus said:
Not gonna read this entire thread, there is too much here, addressing the op.

The Infinite Claims​


The op in some points is attempting to apply physics to characters who blatantly disregard physics.



Why doesn't infinite mass destroy the whole universe and not just shake it? This is the same question as why when Ruphas and co go FTL Midgard isn't destroyed, cause physics doesn't work the same as Earth.

The residents of Alovenus world can disregard the natural laws, so again arguing that it's contradictory or whatever because this doesn't happen or whatever doesn't work



And then the next sort of things are arguments that the characters can't be above infinity, which is wrong, as we accept characters on here as being above baseline 2-A for example, destroying an infinite series of infinite universes won't get you that, unless the verse proves it, but multipliers are allowed. This is like saying like SSJ 4 Goku from DBH isn't x number of things above 2-A, when his base is already 2-A, despite the verse showing he is actually stronger.

Like are we really just taking infinite at face value here, when our system of tiering are based on levels of infinity? A High 3-A character is infinite, but there are people more powerful than them, the laws of physics stop making sense after that too, to say Alovenus is infinite and thus she can't get any stronger or whatever is an oversimplification, what level of infinity is she operating on?

The white room being infinite being contradiced i don't even understand, the statement about the scale and dimensions they were in would be different, isn't referring to the White Room, but the difference in powerful between Alovenus and Ruphas, that they are operating on a very different scale, this is a fancy way of saying Alovenus is far more powerful, rather than saying the White Room operates by a size



The googolplex stuff, is just an explanation of their abilities, that whatever their opponent throws at them, they will just strike with a multiple of that, this is not meant to say they aren't infinite, which even very lowballing, they are 2-A, and that's clearly not finite, it's to illustrate their transcendence.

Abilities​


Claims of omnipotence in fiction, often are just a means to say a character is very powerful, nobody should take Alovenus killing an omnipotent being or being omnipotent seriously, they clearly aren't, but doesn't mean we disregard all their feats.

The rest of the debunks are not good, Alovenus killing everything, penetration everything, etc etc, is true for like 1 second until Ruphas transcends her, this isn't that hard to understand, Alovenus isn't omnipotent, she isn't unbeatable, this is all relative, to a lower God ie Orm, Benetnash, this would all be true, Ruphas is just able to transcend above her.

And obviously nobody should take her abilities to the logical extreme, obviously she wouldn't be able to like kill a 1-A being, that's an NLF.

The issue here again i see is levels to things are being ignored, A 2-A being is "unbeatable", "omnipotent" etc in their own verse, if everyone else are just fodder, of course they aren't actually omnipotent, unbeatable etc, it just seems that way due to the massive power difference.

Reality > fiction layers and dimensions​


The characters current tiering isn't even based on the script but due to stuff like Alovenus creating universes that transcend others into insignifications, and higher dimensional beings being able to toss away their opponents settings like paper. So not really gonna address this.

Miscellaneous (more hyperboles and metaphors)​


One of the translators i am pretty sure said, something about multiverse being their own take on it, due to there not being like a kanji for it or something, more strictly it comes out to like higher universes or something. Regardless it doesn't really make much difference.

There not being a concept of strength, is in reference to Alovenus previous statements





What's meant here is that it's not really about who is "stronger" here, it's who has the greatest will, strength is irrelevant all that matters is ego. You can blow a multiverse? Cool, i beleive i am stronger, and thus i become so, this is literally how their power works.

And again the rest of it is talking about laws applying to characters who blatantly disregard these things, Alovenus literally has all laws as apart of herself



Why are we trying to apply logic to people beyond said thing, they can do nonsensical things, not to mention this is fiction where physics is disregarded all the time.

Time not existing applies only to the White Room, it very much exists within the multiverse, which is exactly what broke, this claim is misleading
Click to expand...
Reading through this you say -

The googolplex stuff, is just an explanation of their abilities, that whatever their opponent throws at them, they will just strike with a multiple of that, this is not meant to say they aren't infinite, which even very lowballing, they are 2-A, and that's clearly not finite, it's to illustrate their transcendence.

But this makes no sense, googolplex is supposed to represent infinity but then the author goes to say if Ruphas struck with an "Infinite" power value
Celestial_Pegasus said:
Not gonna read this entire thread, there is too much here, addressing the op.

The Infinite Claims​


The op in some points is attempting to apply physics to characters who blatantly disregard physics.



Why doesn't infinite mass destroy the whole universe and not just shake it? This is the same question as why when Ruphas and co go FTL Midgard isn't destroyed, cause physics doesn't work the same as Earth.

The residents of Alovenus world can disregard the natural laws, so again arguing that it's contradictory or whatever because this doesn't happen or whatever doesn't work



And then the next sort of things are arguments that the characters can't be above infinity, which is wrong, as we accept characters on here as being above baseline 2-A for example, destroying an infinite series of infinite universes won't get you that, unless the verse proves it, but multipliers are allowed. This is like saying like SSJ 4 Goku from DBH isn't x number of things above 2-A, when his base is already 2-A, despite the verse showing he is actually stronger.

Like are we really just taking infinite at face value here, when our system of tiering are based on levels of infinity? A High 3-A character is infinite, but there are people more powerful than them, the laws of physics stop making sense after that too, to say Alovenus is infinite and thus she can't get any stronger or whatever is an oversimplification, what level of infinity is she operating on?

The white room being infinite being contradiced i don't even understand, the statement about the scale and dimensions they were in would be different, isn't referring to the White Room, but the difference in powerful between Alovenus and Ruphas, that they are operating on a very different scale, this is a fancy way of saying Alovenus is far more powerful, rather than saying the White Room operates by a size



The googolplex stuff, is just an explanation of their abilities, that whatever their opponent throws at them, they will just strike with a multiple of that, this is not meant to say they aren't infinite, which even very lowballing, they are 2-A, and that's clearly not finite, it's to illustrate their transcendence.

Abilities​


Claims of omnipotence in fiction, often are just a means to say a character is very powerful, nobody should take Alovenus killing an omnipotent being or being omnipotent seriously, they clearly aren't, but doesn't mean we disregard all their feats.

The rest of the debunks are not good, Alovenus killing everything, penetration everything, etc etc, is true for like 1 second until Ruphas transcends her, this isn't that hard to understand, Alovenus isn't omnipotent, she isn't unbeatable, this is all relative, to a lower God ie Orm, Benetnash, this would all be true, Ruphas is just able to transcend above her.

And obviously nobody should take her abilities to the logical extreme, obviously she wouldn't be able to like kill a 1-A being, that's an NLF.

The issue here again i see is levels to things are being ignored, A 2-A being is "unbeatable", "omnipotent" etc in their own verse, if everyone else are just fodder, of course they aren't actually omnipotent, unbeatable etc, it just seems that way due to the massive power difference.

Reality > fiction layers and dimensions​


The characters current tiering isn't even based on the script but due to stuff like Alovenus creating universes that transcend others into insignifications, and higher dimensional beings being able to toss away their opponents settings like paper. So not really gonna address this.

Miscellaneous (more hyperboles and metaphors)​


One of the translators i am pretty sure said, something about multiverse being their own take on it, due to there not being like a kanji for it or something, more strictly it comes out to like higher universes or something. Regardless it doesn't really make much difference.

There not being a concept of strength, is in reference to Alovenus previous statements





What's meant here is that it's not really about who is "stronger" here, it's who has the greatest will, strength is irrelevant all that matters is ego. You can blow a multiverse? Cool, i beleive i am stronger, and thus i become so, this is literally how their power works.

And again the rest of it is talking about laws applying to characters who blatantly disregard these things, Alovenus literally has all laws as apart of herself



Why are we trying to apply logic to people beyond said thing, they can do nonsensical things, not to mention this is fiction where physics is disregarded all the time.

Time not existing applies only to the White Room, it very much exists within the multiverse, which is exactly what broke, this claim is misleading
Click to expand...
While I was reading this I noticed something you said -

The googolplex stuff, is just an explanation of their abilities, that whatever their opponent throws at them, they will just strike with a multiple of that, this is not meant to say they aren't infinite, which even very lowballing, they are 2-A, and that's clearly not finite, it's to illustrate their transcendence.

I Kinda understand what you are saying here but still.. the author worded this poorly..

Googolplex is supposed to mean Infinite and the author says, "If Ruphas struck with an, "Infinite" Power value, Alovenus counterattack with a power value of a infinite multiplied by another infinite." They are literally multiplying infinite x infinite and getting a higher level of infinity... how does that even work? But then in the next paragraph the author says that, "If the opponent insisted that infinity was just 1 in front of them, then all that was needed was to transcend to a higher realm." Literally in the last Paragraph they are multiplying infinity by infinity and now they are transcending it? What?

To multiply is to - obtain from (a number) another that contains the first number a specified number of times.
To Transcend is to - be or go beyond the range or limits of (something abstract, typically a conceptual field or division).

These are literally 2 completely different things.
 
RimUchiha said:
Reading through this you say -

The googolplex stuff, is just an explanation of their abilities, that whatever their opponent throws at them, they will just strike with a multiple of that, this is not meant to say they aren't infinite, which even very lowballing, they are 2-A, and that's clearly not finite, it's to illustrate their transcendence.

But this makes no sense, googolplex is supposed to represent infinity but then the author goes to say if Ruphas struck with an "Infinite" power value

While I was reading this I noticed something you said -

The googolplex stuff, is just an explanation of their abilities, that whatever their opponent throws at them, they will just strike with a multiple of that, this is not meant to say they aren't infinite, which even very lowballing, they are 2-A, and that's clearly not finite, it's to illustrate their transcendence.

I Kinda understand what you are saying here but still.. the author worded this poorly..

Googolplex is supposed to mean Infinite and the author says, "If Ruphas struck with an, "Infinite" Power value, Alovenus counterattack with a power value of a infinite multiplied by another infinite." They are literally multiplying infinite x infinite and getting a higher level of infinity... how does that even work? But then in the next paragraph the author says that, "If the opponent insisted that infinity was just 1 in front of them, then all that was needed was to transcend to a higher realm." Literally in the last Paragraph they are multiplying infinity by infinity and now they are transcending it? What?

To multiply is to - obtain from (a number) another that contains the first number a specified number of times.
To Transcend is to - be or go beyond the range or limits of (something abstract, typically a conceptual field or division).

These are literally 2 completely different things.
Click to expand...
But this is the vsbattle term to be infinite^infinite is uncountably infinite which means it has an infinite infinite, and the simple term is that there is an infinite number of houses in which there is an infinite room and inside there is an infinite cupboard and continues until it is infinite.
 
RimUchiha said:
Reading through this you say -

The googolplex stuff, is just an explanation of their abilities, that whatever their opponent throws at them, they will just strike with a multiple of that, this is not meant to say they aren't infinite, which even very lowballing, they are 2-A, and that's clearly not finite, it's to illustrate their transcendence.

But this makes no sense, googolplex is supposed to represent infinity but then the author goes to say if Ruphas struck with an "Infinite" power value

While I was reading this I noticed something you said -

The googolplex stuff, is just an explanation of their abilities, that whatever their opponent throws at them, they will just strike with a multiple of that, this is not meant to say they aren't infinite, which even very lowballing, they are 2-A, and that's clearly not finite, it's to illustrate their transcendence.

I Kinda understand what you are saying here but still.. the author worded this poorly..

Googolplex is supposed to mean Infinite and the author says, "If Ruphas struck with an, "Infinite" Power value, Alovenus counterattack with a power value of a infinite multiplied by another infinite." They are literally multiplying infinite x infinite and getting a higher level of infinity... how does that even work? But then in the next paragraph the author says that, "If the opponent insisted that infinity was just 1 in front of them, then all that was needed was to transcend to a higher realm." Literally in the last Paragraph they are multiplying infinity by infinity and now they are transcending it? What?

To multiply is to - obtain from (a number) another that contains the first number a specified number of times.
To Transcend is to - be or go beyond the range or limits of (something abstract, typically a conceptual field or division).

These are literally 2 completely different things.
Click to expand...
Googolplex is not infinite. Uncountable or countable doesn't apply to alovenus' stats. Also why didn't you post this on comic vine where @not_exactly could respond. @memeox?
 
RimUchiha said:
But this makes no sense, googolplex is supposed to represent infinity but then the author goes to say if Ruphas struck with an "Infinite" power value
Click to expand...
''A googolplex is the number 10, or equivalently, 10. Written out in ordinary decimal notation, it is 1 followed by 10¹⁰⁰ zeroes; that is, a 1 followed by a googol zeroes''
 
Shuna said:
But this is the vsbattle term to be infinite^infinite is uncountably infinite which means it has an infinite infinite, and the simple term is that there is an infinite number of houses in which there is an infinite room and inside there is an infinite cupboard and continues until it is infinite.
Click to expand...
It's only uncountable if you color each individual cupboard in one of 2 colors and change the order you color them in every universe so that every universe has a unique color ordering. But that's not applicable to alovenus' stats so it's off topic anyway.
 
damn this CRT is already five pages if ultima is not interested in this crt then there is a possibility it will not finish or this crt will sink because there is no answer whether the downgrade has been accepted or not
 
Antvasima said:
It doesn't seem like Ultima is interested in this topic anymore.
Click to expand...
better close the revision, ultima is no longer interested and the explanation given by celestial pegasus also makes sense anyways there is no reason to continue this, it will just be a waste of time
 
Honestly saying that this thread didn't reach any conclusion is more accurate (mostly because of derailment) so maybe someone should make a better thread (and Pegasus said that script has nothing to do with tier 1 rating so we should need to clarify the old reason for tier 1)
 
Hasty12345 said:
I disagree with closing the thread, the wiki and its members can't rely on Ultima for every single tier 1 thread it's not fair on him and will hurt the wiki in the long run imo.
Click to expand...
This thread should be closed not only because ultima doesn't care about this anymore but the explanation from Celestial Pegasus also makes sense and many agree with that, I think it's best to close this thread
 
Hmesko said:
Googolplex is not infinite. Uncountable or countable doesn't apply to alovenus' stats. Also why didn't you post this on comic vine where @not_exactly could respond. @memeox?
Click to expand...
Did you even read the thread? Googolplex is supposed to represent infinite in the series
 
RimUchiha said:
Did you even read the thread? Googolplex is supposed to represent infinite in the series
Click to expand...
googolplex == infinity
googolplex X infinity is not multiplication on infinity by a finite amount. But an uncountable union of uncountable sets.
That there are different sizes of uncountable sets in set theory means Alovenus can Amp her stats "beyond infinite."
Click to expand...
All these arguments conveniently ignore the way math and logic actually work to confer power to Alovenus. The author doesn't know set theory. Unions weren't mentioned in the original story.. That's why awlb has so many contradictions. Even if he did. Set theory isn't applicable to Alovenus' stats. Even if we assume Alovenus could Amp herself "transcending everything" scp 3812 style. I'm not convinced she can. It's weird so many seem to be granted this power now when it seems like it's a power unique to that character. But even if we accept she can. Alovenus has been shown not to be able to do this indefinitely. Even you admitted on comic vine she couldn't do this indefinitely.
 
Well, if Ultima has lost interest, I suppose that there is not much left to do here.
 
Okay. I will do so then.
 
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