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Alovenus and Ruphas downgrade

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Tarang123 said:
While I generally disagree with using irl stuff to contradict fiction, all the OP does is point out contradictions in the logic that was layed out earlier, so no I don't think that's enough to call it a "not good" CRT.
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RimUchiha said:

I was going through a couple of sites for my Alovenus debate and I found this… what do you guys think? I think Alovenus should be downgraded​


created by: @not_exactly

The "infinity" claims​

First, let us see a couple of mentions of the word "infinite" in the last couple of chapters of the story that at the very least don't sound nonsensical:



.



.



.



.



So we pretty much have - infinitely powerful and fast characters as well as infinitely sized locations. Now let's see how this supposed infinity behaves in story:

Firstly, about the quote for several characters supposedly having infinite speed... One of them is soon after followed by:



Also, quick note, if these attacks really had "infinite mass" they wouldn't simply shake the universe.

Oh, here's one more instance of the supposedly "infinite speed" getting more infinite by being multiplied by a finite number:



This sentence makes even less sense (from the physics standpoint) when you consider you would have speed measured in m^2/s^2 (and not m/s) after the multiplication...

One more quote of such nonsense (basically multiplying infinity by a finite number and getting a "greater infinity"):



Then, we have Benetnash claiming her speed is already "infinite" but she can still go faster and reach "further infinity" of speed...



Yeah, no, speed is measured in real numbers (affinely extendable with +- ∞) so going "above" infinite speed doesn't make sense from a mathematical standpoint, which makes this feat either contradictory and therefore nonsensical and should be ignored or she wasn't infinitely fast in the first place.

Next, Alovenus claims her power is infinite, but it can be represented numerically:



Mentioned again:



We also have this supposed infinity getting larger by adding 10 more digits to it (to nullify a finitely powerful attack):



She claims she can get infinitely more powerful at a rate one thousand times faster then an already infinitely strong being:



Next, if her power was truly infinite, she shouldn't have the need to stack multiple “∞” signs on her status as they don't really make the infinity "larger":



The bolded part is elaborated more in the footnotes:



This would make sense... except for the fact cardinal numbers have nothing to do with representing unit values of some physical quantity like power/energy/mass/etc nor could the notion of measure be redefined in such a way to use them while still referring to the same thing (quantity of some physical value).

Next, from this inner monologue by Alovenus, it's pretty much implied neither she nor Ruphas are infinite, since if they were, they would perfectly stalemate each other in power:



which they obviously don't... as shown in the next paragraph:



You can't simply be "slightly" stronger than an infinitely powerful character.

Alovenus's existence can cause universes to collapse... if they aren't strong enough (which should be impossible if she truly has infinite properties):



Next there was a claim about the "White Room" being infinite, but... it's also said to "lack the concept of size":



while also making a size comparison inside it:



so yeah, considering it's description is contradicted multiple times I'd take any such exaggerated claim about it with a grain of salt...

And the final nail in the coffin for most of the infinite claims is:



As well as this comment from the translator:



Surprise surprise (not really), it turns out most claims of infinite and immeasurable were actually just referring to a really big finite number... oh boy, who could have guessed...



Exaggerated abilities​

Due to how many of them there are I feel like this description author gave her suits her the best:


But anyway, let's start this long journey of listing a counter example for every hyperbolic claim:

Let's get the most famous one out first:


So... yeah... nothing much to say here. Though I guess I'll give a little snippet on what to expect:


Though while we are talking about omnipotence in AWLBA, let's take a moment to appreciate two mutually contradictory statements written by the author back to back:


Oh also, let's add a third statement to make it even worse:


Also, the supposedly "omnipotent" deity Alovenus killed has things that are impossible for him to do:


She was also called "omniscient" but still lacks knowledge (awareness) of certain things:



Now, for her exaggerated abilities:

CLAIM: Capable of killing everyone and able to penetrate everything:


COUNTER-EXAMPLE: Her attacks get countered:


CLAIM: Able to reflect, dodge, seal and predict every attack:


COUNTER-EXAMPLE: Doesn't predict her ability getting shattered and her getting hit and damaged:



She also gets sliced:


CLAIM: Able to erase the existence of her opponents and reverse time:


COUNTER-EXAMPLE: She fails to display this in every occasion during the fight with every opponent from the main cast.

CLAIM: Capable of always winning:


COUNTER-EXAMPLE: She still loses (and is able to be killed):



This is even more ironic considering she claimed:


And after she lost, she said:


CLAIM: Can instantly inflict defeat on the opponent:


COUNTER-EXAMPLE: Is evenly matched in her fight with Ruphas and can't do anything about it:


CLAIM: Can erase "everything":


COUNTER-EXAMPLE: Still gets hit and damaged by physical attacks and fails to delete her enemies on multiple occasions...

CLAIM: Can nullify every ability:


COUNTER-EXAMPLE: Can't stop Ruphas from bypassing her restrictions:


And can't instantly and completely nullify regen:


CLAIM: Can overcome anything with her willpower:


COUNTER-EXAMPLE: The final battle pretty much devolves into a battle of willpower:


and... she loses in that too... :


And to top everything off, while listing her abilities she literally states:


And tbh this entire list of "unbeatable abilities" can be chalked up to standard reality warping that can be negated by even more potent reality warping, considering:



This makes any and every claim of the above-mentioned abilities just relative to some level of power. And it's too bad all of these abilities (or at least a vast majority of them) are unusable in a cross-verse battle scenario as all of them are contradicted before even showing to properly work on anything and anyone.

BONUS: Alovenus wields a sword that's equivalent to an unbreakable and unshatterable one Ruphas wields:


But it still gets shattered and broken:


Reality > fiction layers and dimensions​

The claims for this are the usual stuff - higher dimensions that involve some qualitative transcendence over lower ones as well as viewing them as fiction... To add some counter-examples for that:

People claim the "script" represents reality manipulation from a higher R>F layer but it's pretty much confirmed that the "script" is used metaphorically from these quotes:



.



.



Next, "rewriting the setting" doesn't actually mean rewriting it from a higher narrative layer, just reality warping the setting (layer) in which they are already in:



.



One more time the "script" is mentioned in a metaphorical sense, making every other usage of it referring to "higher dimensions" be dubious at best:



Furthermore, the usage of dimensions doesn't necessarily need to imply they are somehow "transcended" over the lower ones unless explicitly stated, as they are sometimes implied to be parallel universes:



Next, when it's actually stated they are talking about higher dimensions, let's take a look at how they are constructed:



So these "higher dimensions" are actually just [at most countable] collections of lower ones. And considering authors previous misuse of the word infinity, as well as:


it makes it very dubious if these higher dimensions are actually an infinite collection of lower ones or just some really large finite amount of them.

Miscellaneous (more hyperboles and metaphors)​

These quotes didn't really belong to any of the above three categories but they are still worth to note:

One quote that talks about "multiverses" doesn't actually use the characters for multiverse anywhere in the raws and instead they talk about universes:



RAWS:



Next, Alovenus says there is no concept of strength in a battle of this level



but it's literally started later on it's a battle of strength:



She also claims that "concepts and laws don't exist" there:



which not only a nonsensical notion (does the concept of existence also not exist there?) but they are also still able to measure their power level, are able to talk, move, fight, lose, win, etc... Though to be fair it's explained a bit further here:



which is unfortunately completely contradictory with the fact they talk about speed, mass, time, energy, etc... which all fall under laws of physics

Then, there is a claim that time doesn't exist in the place they are fighting:


But they still manage to "break it":


...and also fight, throw punches, etc:



.



Great, so not only was the original claim nonsense, it's also contradicted...

Summary​

Anyway, to sum it all up:

  1. Both the author (WOG) and Alovenus love making insane hyperboles that get contradicted fairly quickly making them extremely unreliable sources of knowledge
  2. All the claims about omnipotence, being unbeatable, indestructible, invulnerable, negating every attack and bypassing every defense are either contradicted or never shown to work
  3. Mentions of reality > fiction layers are extremely vague and most of the times metaphorical
  4. Higher dimensions refer to collections of lowers ones, not spatial nor narrative-like dimensions
  5. The notion of infinity in this novel is butchered and misrepresented to the point that every claim of it is highly dubious at best and completely wrong at worst
Having said all this, it is still a fact she is a pretty powerful reality warper on a multiversal scope and if the mentions of the vigintillion/centillion/googolplex power level aren't metaphorical (as it's somewhat indicated they are) they could be [somewhat] equated to either energy output or some similar quantifiable metric in which case it would make her a strong contestant for the most powerful finite character.
Click to expand...
why? it's like you enter the logic of physics in the real world into a deathbattle which is clearly logically different, Yasei is a fiction that in the last few chapters often adds the word infinite but it's not just hyperbole because there is no prohibition for that in deathbattle and indeed many things are not makes sense
 
RimUchiha said:
All I’m really saying is that she shouldn’t be low outer because infinity x infinity isn’t an higher level of infinity and the verse really likes to do this
Click to expand...
At this point, That's not only Infinity x Infinity. But infinite^Infinite which is uncountable infinite.
Darksmash said:
Tossing something like paper isn't a transcendent difference of power. It's just exaggerated way to say she can destroy the cosmology. If we were to take it at face value then paper isn't even a lower dimensional construct anyway.
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That's not only reality- paper. But reality-story. just remember that midgard is alovenus script

“Stories are usually lame like that. Like suddenly getting stronger or awakening latent ability to result in a super power-up after becoming angry, or it might be his bonds with his friends, or the character might say, ‘I’m going to protect everyone’, then without any explanation whatsoever becomes able to fight on equal footing or become even stronger the enemy they were previous losing against. In the end, doesn’t the protagonist win as a result of the convenience and corrections of God (author) in order to advance the story? For God, it’s the easiest and simplest way to intervene. The main character is nothing but a doll to God, you know?”
Click to expand...



ever since they were in the divine realm, they had become equal. the only thing that determines is their willpower. It's quite simple why an unbreakable sword can be destroyed. because if he has surpassed the opponent's infinite, then logically he has surpassed all aspects of the opponent ( On this fiction). then if someone says, Infinite x infinite its still same (baseline infinite). it depends on the fiction or the context. You have to evaluate case by case because in Yasei's case infinite can be exceeded and it also affects their power.
 
Fixxed said:
At this point, That's not only Infinity x Infinity. But infinite^Infinite which is uncountable infinite.
Click to expand...
If that's an uncountable infinite, then DND would be 6-D by now. It has Infinite^Infinite^Infinitely high into 2-A beings. Author doesn't even know about cardinals.
Fixxed said:
That's not only reality- paper. But reality-story. just remember that midgard is alovenus script
Click to expand...
Disproved. Read the OP.
Fixxed said:
ever since they were in the divine realm, they had become equal. the only thing that determines is their willpower. It's quite simple why an unbreakable sword can be destroyed. because if he has surpassed the opponent's infinite, then logically he has surpassed all aspects of the opponent ( On this fiction). then if someone says, Infinite x infinite its still same (baseline infinite). it depends on the fiction or the context. You have to evaluate case by case because in Yasei's case infinite can be exceeded and it also affects their power.
Click to expand...
Baseline infinite? Exceeding infinite when the series contradicts itself so many ******* times
 
Fixxed said:
At this point, That's not only Infinity x Infinity. But infinite^Infinite which is uncountable infinite.

That's not only reality- paper. But reality-story. just remember that midgard is alovenus script





ever since they were in the divine realm, they had become equal. the only thing that determines is their willpower. It's quite simple why an unbreakable sword can be destroyed. because if he has surpassed the opponent's infinite, then logically he has surpassed all aspects of the opponent ( On this fiction). then if someone says, Infinite x infinite its still same (baseline infinite). it depends on the fiction or the context. You have to evaluate case by case because in Yasei's case infinite can be exceeded and it also affects their power.
Click to expand...
The Main problem I have with the verse is that it likes to say infinite x infinite = a higher level of infinite and makes them hit harder but that's stupid and shouldn't be possible, you can't multiply something infinite by another infinite thing and get something higher.. it literally isn't possible
 
Fixxed said:
At this point, That's not only Infinity x Infinity. But infinite
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Don't get how it becomes infinity^infinity

This is the scan I got from the blog for the infinity stuff

Infinite speed? I see. How amazing. Then, I’ll answer thus, ‘Infinite speed before me is nothing more than one, and I’m one hundred times faster.’ If you have infinite power, then I’ll say, ‘Even that infinity is just one, there is always another infinity beyond.’ If you go beyond that, I’ll simply say that there’s even more beyond. If you say that you’ll become infinitely stronger and stronger, I can simply make myself become infinitely stronger, but at a rate one thousand times faster than you. So what will you do next? An instant death attack that kills the opponent just by facing them? An ability to take away all of the opponent’s powers just by being present? A trait that always makes you stronger than your opponent? Turn back time to undo events? Become a resident of a higher dimension and toss away the opponent’s settings like a piece of waste paper?
 
Can somebody summarise the arguments here so far in an easy to understand, but still elaborate and even-handed, manner please?
 
Meganova_Stella said:
If that's an uncountable infinite, then DND would be 6-D by now. It has Infinite^Infinite^Infinitely high into 2-A beings. Author doesn't even know about cardinals.
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Then try to create the CRT, i don't care with that's fiction

Meganova_Stella said:
Disproved. Read the OP.
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Don't be Ignorant. I have backup feats if is refer to author-fiction
“Stories are usually lame like that. Like suddenly getting stronger or awakening latent ability to result in a super power-up after becoming angry, or it might be his bonds with his friends, or the character might say, ‘I’m going to protect everyone’, then without any explanation whatsoever becomes able to fight on equal footing or become even stronger the enemy they were previous losing against. In the end, doesn’t the protagonist win as a result of the convenience and corrections of God (author) in order to advance the story? For God, it’s the easiest and simplest way to intervene. The main character is nothing but a doll to God, you know?”
Click to expand...
H

Meganova_Stella said:
Baseline infinite? Exceeding infinite when the series contradicts itself so many ******* times
Click to expand...
Where is contradict ? Can you explain that?
 
RimUchiha said:
a higher level of infinite and makes them hit harder but that's stupid and shouldn't be possible, you can't multiply something infinite by another infinite thing and get something higher.. it literally isn't possible
Click to expand...
Why not? That's yasei work lol. If you have problem go Protest to author.

Lormac_CC said:
This is the scan I got from the blog for the infinity stuff
Click to expand...
This was already the realm of God, therefore they could do anything that they wanted to. Ruphas’ status instantly changed to “∞”. Furthermore, the character ∞ repeated itself on the display indefinitely.

Infinite infinity. Once she had reached this point, it was just a matter of arm strength to get everything done. The multiverse would be reduced to dust just from its mere existence.
Click to expand...

Infinite infinity is refer to Infinite^infinite, already explained by translator.

Infinite infinity’ was translated a little differently by someone I know, it is ‘infinity infinity’ or ‘infinite to the power of infinity’?”

The raw for this is “無限の無限乗” or “Mugen no mugen jou”. The “jou” here signifies indices. “X no Y jou” translates to “X to the power of Y”. This means that, strictly speaking, “mugen no mugen jou” should translate to “infinity to the power of infinity”. Nevertheless, the context/sentence prior to this statement was describing an “infinity infinity”. As for whether the author is aware of aleph cardinal numbers and beyond, I don’t know.
Click to expand...

(But i totally agree if the author need Very overpower fiction lolz, however i still like this fiction. So i Will defend it)

And take a note, if law of physics is don't have any impact on this goddes fight

This is author note:
Laws-of-Physics-san: “…Cheer up.”
Deflation-san: “I know you’re strong…but, well…yeah, your opponent is just too incompatible.
Midgard: “Ruphas is too much. She shouldn’t have brought you out when it’s obvious that you’d bite the dust and die like a dog.
Common-Sense-san: “They say that I don’t even exist anymore…Let’s drink today until we collapse.
The Mocking Slaughterer: “。・゜・(
Click to expand...
 
Shuna said:
.

why? it's like you enter the logic of physics in the real world into a deathbattle which is clearly logically different, Yasei is a fiction that in the last few chapters often adds the word infinite but it's not just hyperbole because there is no prohibition for that in deathbattle and indeed many things are not makes sense
Click to expand...
Again, simply spamming the fiction argument is just stupid when the whole point was to show the numerous amounts of hyperbole being shown here.
 
I read the whole CRT, i think 70% who one downgrade this verse don't know about
"Negation resistance negation" or whatever like that
 
Antvasima said:
Can somebody summarise the arguments here so far in an easy to understand, but still elaborate and even-handed, manner please?
Click to expand...
From what I understand and have seen for myself: What the OP posted in the first page, belongs to Comic-vine, and said thread from Comic-vine, was made to debunk Alovenus or "The Last Wild Boss Appeared"`s Outerversal scaling ON Comic-Vine (Or 1-A simply speaking). It wasnt directed towards VSBW anyways, and the OP pretty much stole the text and such and pasted it here- But back to the origin of this: This debunk was mostly made about the character named Alovenus, along with Ruphas. Its an downgrade towards the verse, but at the same time it mostly downgrades Alovenus.

You could read the original thread, which is from Comic-Vine if you dont mind, to get an idea of the original post's thoughts. However, as most has said: The debunk doesnt really fit the VSBW's criteria or something, however, some, or many of the stuff used in the OP could be used in a proper CRT instead. Either way, this thread is pretty much of an argument over a thread from a different site 🤷‍♂️

While it doesnt really fit the Wiki's standards, along with others who has said so as well if I remember correctly: It still points out the flaws of the verse, which in point makes Alovenus's Tier and Ruphas Tier - Questionable.
(In Vs Battle Wiki)

This is what I understand so far.

Here is where the original text originates from. (I can delete the link via editing my post if you dont want me to post the link here)
comicvine.gamespot.com

Alovenus (AWLBA) Disrespect thread - Gen. Discussion - Comic Vine

Table of contentsIntroductionThe "infinity" claimsExaggerated abilitiesReality > fiction layers and dimensionsMiscellaneous (more hyperboles and me
comicvine.gamespot.com comicvine.gamespot.com

Edit: Almost forgot to explain a bit more: There are people arguing against what the OP posted, as in, the one's that "Disagree" with it, while there are others that agree with what the OP said, and are arguing against the one's arguing against what the OP said (Those that Disagree)
Then there are like, few others that are neutral, but leaning towards agreeing with what the OP posted, or others that are just completely "neutral" in stance, I guess.

Another Edit: The original poster of that text/the thread basically, so to speak in his/her's summary, debunked the Outerversal scaling, to Multiversal (Not sure what exactly, but it seems to refer to mostly AP and stuff, like hax) and Infinite speed.
 
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Tarang123 said:
Again, simply spamming the fiction argument is just stupid when the whole point was to show the numerous amounts of hyperbole being shown here.
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Why hyperbole? there is already a translator's explanation about infinite in yasei. Back again in the fictional world, the author is like being able to add anything to the story, except if there is something right "it's beyond logic for an infinite question that seems unreasonable. The context is still very acceptable. Likewise in this world of deathbattle, there are so many things" that don't make sense. reasonable and illogical.
 
Shuna said:
Why hyperbole? there is already a translator's explanation about infinite in yasei. Back again in the fictional world, the author is like being able to add anything to the story, except if there is something right "it's beyond logic for an infinite question that seems unreasonable. The context is still very acceptable. Likewise in this world of deathbattle, there are so many things" that don't make sense. reasonable and illogical.
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Lol, the point is that counter-arguments were shown to prove that it’s merely hyperbole.
 
@not_exactly on comic vine already addressed the idea of using set theory to justify characters being "beyond infinitely powerful." You can't use set theory on characters like alovenus or any other beyond multiversal beings to measure the amount of power of their attacks or other physical attributes. Because we are not talking about the amount of universes or multiverses in albw's cosmology or other verses' cosmology. So alovenus is either infinite in her power or she is not. And alovenus has too many anti feats to be infinitely powerful. This next part is only my own belief and no one else's. But when dealing with "beyond multiversal" beings. Anti feats become the the most important part. This is why featherine is so powerful. She has no anti feats. Or at least no low showings that can be meaningfully held against her. Whereas alovenus has plenty of anti feats. Opponent's dodging and tanking her infinite attacks. Her failing to instantly destroy her opponent's. Her being challenged by her opponent's. Etc. In all honesty. After looking more into it. Alovenus is a lot stronger than I initially thought. I thought ruphas' "super universe" feat was the best in the verse. But alovenus has really good feats of her own.. She operates on a massive "beyond multiversal" scale.. She has really good showings of casually warping reality on a massive cosmological scale. But at the end of the day she is finite in her abilities.
 
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