Alovenus and Ruphas downgrade

[Hmesko]

Countable or uncountable aren't applicable here. We are not talking about the amount of things in awlb's cosmology. But the scale of Alovenus' ap, speed, and durability. You can't use the fact that in set theory there are different sized uncountable sets to justify Alovenus' "going beyond infinite." Her ap, speed, and durability either are infinite or they are not. And she has too many anti feats to justify her having infinite ap, speed and durability. Ignoring my argument. Assuming set theory were applicable here. @not_exactly pointed out that even others have pointed out that no one knows if awlb's author knows set theory or not. And even if he did. The stuff from from awlb is all about multiplying finite numbers with infinity. There is no mention of power sets, unions, or partitionings. The ways in set theory that you construct larger uncountable sets. Even assuming that the infinity the author was referring to is uncountable and not countable. Nothing he has written would make it larger than the uncountable set it already was.

 

[Shuna]

I've seen many people say that the infinite in Yasei is an infinite that can be counted because it is considered a hyperbole and the accumulation of ^infinite is useless, even though in deathbattle there is such a thing as uncountable infinite, which is a higher level than infinite and is an L 1A structure.

 

[RimUchiha]

The Final Point is L1-A because as, Ultima explained in a previous thread, basically it's a blank canvas of nothingness with no concept of space, time or size in which any amount of levels can be inserted. Alovenus normally only scales to the top of topmost level of the hierarchy is.

Btw it actually did have concepts.. did you read this part of the thread?

She also claims that "concepts and laws don't exist" there:

Concepts, providences, laws, and even limits were all things that had been created by God. Therefore, there were no such things in the realm of God. They would just have to create their own based on their whims.

which not only a nonsensical notion (does the concept of existence also not exist there?) but they are also still able to measure their power level, are able to talk, move, fight, lose, win, etc... Though to be fair it's explained a bit further here:

They were like trying to paint their own colors on a blank white canvas and enforce their own truths. Alovenus could do that, so there was no reason why they couldn’t do it themselves. After all, they were residents of the world that had been created by Alovenus. For the same reason, natural laws didn’t apply to them. In hindsight, this was probably why the laws of physics didn’t apply to them at all.
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which is unfortunately completely contradictory with the fact they talk about speed, mass, time, energy, etc... which all fall under laws of physics

Then, there is a claim that time doesn't exist in the place they are fighting:

Time itself no longer existed here, so it was no longer restricted to being used once per day.

But they still manage to "break it":

It was shortly before Ruphas and Alovenus broke time itself and everything in the world stopped.

...and also fight, throw punches, etc:

The battle had come to a temporary stalemate as they simply glared at each other from a distance. As they faced each other in this white space, Ruphas made a move first. When she waved her arms, Lifthrasir appeared in her hands, even though they had been borrowed by Alioth.

.

A punch was made. An omnipresent and pure form of violence struck Alovenus, destroying and blowing away the invisible walls that protected her. This “awesome punch that could destroy any barrier” shattered “the barrier that could block any attack”. The punch’s shockwave reached everywhere in an instant, shattering everything that was in front of her. It even blew away one of Alovenus’ arms.
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Great, so not only was the original claim nonsense, it's also contradicted...

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Hmesko What anti feats exactly makes her not have infinite ap? And don't use Ruphas as an example.

If you really are gonna argue a character who is infinite can't be anything more, this is a whole site issue and not just AWLBA, cause that's really not how things are treated here.

 

[Tarang123]

The Final Point is L1-A because as, Ultima explained in a previous thread, basically it's a blank canvas of nothingness with no concept of space, time or size in which any amount of levels can be inserted. Alovenus normally only scales to the top of topmost level of the hierarchy is.

If any amount of layers can be added in it, that should be 1A by definition, should it not? Is there more context that keeps it from 1A or...?

 

[Tarang123]

which not only a nonsensical notion (does the concept of existence also not exist there?) but they are also still able to measure their power level, are able to talk, move, fight, lose, win, etc... Though to be fair it's explained a bit further here:

The issue here is that you're trying to insert irl physics. In terms of lore, there isn't any example that you've actually given to contradict any of that bs.

But they still manage to "break it":

This is merely flowery language for time stop, so this can just be ignored.

...and also fight, throw punches, etc:

Also ignored, not sure why you're trying to insert this kind of stuff. Please show some actual anti-feats for the stuff here.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@RimUchiha Think that's just being nitpicky, do you really expect the author to not portray a fight because concepts don't exist? Like how would this work in telling a story? We have to have some level of common sense here.

Do we we downgrade all 1-A characters who are 1-A for being beyond all concepts and what not, because there is an equally powerful 1-A character that they fight?

Already addressed the time argument, Alovenus and Ruphas broke the time of the multiverse, we literally see Alovenus laugh and destroy timelines and then her and Ruphas break the higher dimensions and super dimensions, this says nothing about the Final Point.

It's also a bit funny, you bring about talking, fighting etc as being nonsensically when the series actually addresses it

For the Goddess to be speaking while they were in a state where even light stood still, it might have seemed all too strange. After all, at this level of battle, the speed of sound was almost negligible. However, the one speaking was the Goddess, who could bend the laws of nature to her will. It was too easy for her to twist reason and disregard contradictions.


In the first place, it was already strange that they were having a conversation in space. Common sense didn’t apply…No, there wasn’t even a fragment of common sense here anymore. Everything here was paranormal, but there was one thing that had not changed.-Chapter 186

 

[Catzlaflame]

this part has got to be satire bru:

Btw it actually did have concepts.. did you read this part of the thread?

She also claims that "concepts and laws don't exist" there:



which not only a nonsensical notion (does the concept of existence also not exist there?) but they are also still able to measure their power level, are able to talk, move, fight, lose, win, etc... ...

Like this can’t be a serious

 

[Shuna]

If any amount of layers can be added in it, that should be 1A by definition, should it not? Is there more context that keeps it from 1A or...?

Make it to 1A at least you have to transcend to the inaccessible level, This is Ruphas L-1A

 

[Orioreeem]

Already addressed the time argument, Alovenus and Ruphas broke the time of the multiverse, we literally see Alovenus laugh and destroy timelines and then her and Ruphas break the higher dimensions and super dimensions, this says nothing about the Final Point.

Statements are actually taken out of the context to downplay the verse BRUH

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Ah yes, gods in Dies Irae existing beyond concepts, why are they talking and moving?! Downgrade to...actually what would that even downgrade to? Lol

Seriously though, many verses have this, existing outside concepts, or in a place with no concepts. That doesn't mean they won't be able to do anything, like Celestial said that would be an issue with the site, not the verse.

 

[Panpanpanjeidj]

If in which verse the speed of light is described as 100000 km/s and which character is faster than light, should it have the speed of FTL?

I don't think so.

I think it's a similar case.

Infinity × infinity is not higher infinity

 

[Hmesko]

@Celestial_Pegasus Multiplying her >infinite hp by 10 to tank a finite attack instead of just no selling it with infinite durability.
@Shuna I already addressed this. Countable or uncountable isn't applicable here because we are not talking about how many things there are in awlb's cosmology. Set theory doesn't apply to things like Alovenus' ap, durability, or speed. But assuming it was uncountable, say something like the continuum. Nothing the author described would make it any bigger than the continuum.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

If in which verse the speed of light is described as 100000 km/s and which character is faster than light, should it have the speed of FTL?

I don't think so.

I think it's a similar case.

Infinity × infinity is not higher infinity

Yeah, on this wiki you can be infinitely higher than infinity. How many times does this have to be said?

 

[Panpanpanjeidj]

Yeah, on this wiki you can be infinitely higher than infinity. How many times does this have to be said?

In this wiki, you need to multiply the previous dimension by Aleph 1 to get a higher tier.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

In this wiki, you need to multiply the previous dimension by Aleph 1 to get a higher tier.

We're not talking about higher tiers, but transcending infinitely within the same tier

 

[Orioreeem]

If in which verse the speed of light is described as 100000 km/s and which character is faster than light, should it have the speed of FTL?

I don't think so.

I think it's a similar case.

Infinity × infinity is not higher infinity

No it probably wouldn't have FTL speed.
Infinity x infinity on it's own also wouldn't be higher infinity. If the verse shows that infinity x infinity would be a higher infinity then it simply would.

If the verse shows that infinity×infinity = higher infinity(higher infinity that fit this site's standards) then it is fine. An example of this i believe is Homestuck. Difference between dimensions there is stated to be infinity(which wouldn't be enough for tier 1 because you need uncountable infinity) but the verse shows that there is RF difference between those dimensions. To that verse infinite difference = uncoutable infinite difference.

 

[Urshani]

infinite x 1000?

ok yheah this verse doesnt use real infinites and i wont be convinced otherwise no matter what

 

[Panpanpanjeidj]

[Tossing something like paper isn't a transcendent difference of power. It's just exaggerated way to say she can destroy the cosmology. If we were to take it at face value then paper isn't even a lower dimensional construct anyway.]

R>F was debunked earlier, right?

There could be something I missed.

 

[Shuna]

infinite x 1000?

ok yheah this verse doesnt use real infinites and i wont be convinced otherwise no matter what

you know about the term uncountably infinite? yes it is infinite which is said to be incalculable.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Did people miss the entire context before the paper statement?

“There’s no limit to the amount of power one can imagine. For example, we could argue about who, between the character of story A and the character of story B, is actually stronger. The character from story A might be able to destroy a universe, but story B could reveal that a single universe is just like a cell of a larger multiverse.”

Alovenus spoke, and the entire universe began to shrink. It became smaller and smaller…until it went beyond the limit, allowing Ruphas and the others to see the whole picture. Beyond the universe, a vast outer space expanded.

While the Goddess talked leisurely, Ruphas didn’t cease her attacks. She released one of Scorpius’ poisonous skills. Orm activated his breath weapon as well. However, the Goddess didn’t stop talking.

“And then, this is where story C comes in and states that the multiverse is just a single cell of an even larger cosmos.”

The multiverse shrank as well, revealing the overwhelming scale that the multiverse was just a cell of a cosmos.

“However, even with such an overwhelming setting, the strongest being within it could be unseated easily by the author (deity) with the creation of another character that could defeat the hitherto strongest character with a single punch. This would make the new character even stronger. Furthermore, the strongest D would be treated like a child by E, who couldn’t react to the speed of F, who could be killed one hundred times with a forehead flick by G, who couldn’t even be an opponent for H, who could be blown away with a sigh by K even if there were one hundred Hs…Hehehe, this is quite common in fiction, isn’t it?”

Alovenus concentrated light in her hands. This wasn’t just light. It had the power to take in countless universes and destroy worlds by the hundreds, thousands, and millions. This was the realm of God. There was just far too much of a difference in scale.

“This whole thing is like a dispute between children. Ruphas, your avatar probably did something similar when he was young, right? When there are two children, one would pretend to attack with a great beam, while the other would pretend to block it with a great barrier. But the former would say that this great beam could easily destroy a great barrier, while the latter would insist that it was an invincible barrier that could not be destroyed. The attacking side would selfishly and unreasonably argue that his beam could destroy even an invincible barrier, while the defending side would retort that his barrier would never ever break…And so there would be no end in sight.”

Alovenus giggled. It was a laugh that embodied absolute belief in her victory and her own power. She couldn’t lose. There was no reason for her to lose. Even if she really lost, she could simply fiddle with the setting. She could come up with so many ways to make herself the strongest by changing the setting, reason, and providence.

“Let me start with the conclusion…My power is infinite. I can overlay settings over pre-existing settings. For example, let’s say you somehow acquired unusual abilities and powers in order to defeat me. Then, I can simply resolve that like this. ‘Your unusual power won’t work on me, and I can still defeat you with one finger.’ Do you think this is ridiculous? Yes, that’s right. I won’t deny it. However, such an inexplicable statement can sometimes be stronger than a never-ending exchange.”

The power of Alovenus swelled further and triggered a universal explosion. Ruphas and the others tried their best to defend, erase, or assimilate the power. However, Alovenus flew over and flicked the three of them at the same time. Ruphas and the others immediately went on the offensive, but their attacks were easily evaded. Attacks with infinite speed should have ignored the entire process of hitting.

“Infinite speed? I see. How amazing. Then, I’ll answer thus, ‘Infinite speed before me is nothing more than one, and I’m one hundred times faster.’ If you have infinite power, then I’ll say, ‘Even that infinity is just one, there is always another infinity beyond.’ If you go beyond that, I’ll simply say that there’s even more beyond. If you say that you’ll become infinitely stronger and stronger, I can simply make myself become infinitely stronger, but at a rate one thousand times faster than you.
So what will you do next? An instant death attack that kills the opponent just by facing them? An ability to take away all of the opponent’s powers just by being present? A trait that always makes you stronger than your opponent? Turn back time to undo events? Become a resident of a higher dimension and toss away the opponent’s settings like a piece of waste paper? The power to nullify all kinds of abilities? An invincible barrier that can reflect any attacks at several times their original power? A constitution that manipulates the concept of victory and ignores the process to attain absolute victory? A cheat that instills the concept of defeat into the opponent to ensure absolute defeat for them? Or pure, unrivaled power that can penetrate and kill everything without exception?
Whatever is fine. Please use them until you are satisfied. They wouldn’t work anyway.”-Chapter 186

This wasn't about her destroying the cosmology, but that, regardless of whatever the cosmology is, she will always be above it, including these higher dimensional beings.

 

[Orioreeem]

[Tossing something like paper isn't a transcendent difference of power. It's just exaggerated way to say she can destroy the cosmology. If we were to take it at face value then paper isn't even a lower dimensional construct anyway.]

R>F was debunked earlier, right?

There could be something I missed.

In Homestuck higher dimensional beings see lower worlds and its inhabitants as pawns so i don't see much difference here if any. Maybe people who accepted that know their stuff about what qualifies for tier 1?

 

[Megaraptor149]

“Infinite speed? I see. How amazing. Then, I’ll answer thus, ‘Infinite speed before me is nothing more than one, and I’m one hundred times faster.’ If you have infinite power, then I’ll say, ‘Even that infinity is just one, there is always another infinity beyond.’ If you go beyond that, I’ll simply say that there’s even more beyond. If you say that you’ll become infinitely stronger and stronger, I can simply make myself become infinitely stronger, but at a rate one thousand times faster than you. So what will you do next? An instant death attack that kills the opponent just by facing them? An ability to take away all of the opponent’s powers just by being present? A trait that always makes you stronger than your opponent? Turn back time to undo events? Become a resident of a higher dimension and toss away the opponent’s settings like a piece of waste paper?

Beyond infinite is meaningless, it means that it can be assumed that Ruphas transcends absolute Infinite

Transcends absolute infinity
Bruh

 

[Urshani]

you know about the term uncountably infinite? yes it is infinite which is said to be incalculable.

doesnt use either
but still

the op is good but is lacking countercounterarguments built into it. we should close this thread and make a more well thought out one in the future

 

[Panpanpanjeidj]

In Homestuck higher dimensional beings see lower worlds and its inhabitants as pawns so i don't see much difference here if any. Maybe people who accepted that know their stuff about what qualifies for tier 1?

How can you become a higher tier just by looking at it on your pawn?
We don't see chessboard as fiction.

 

[Fixxed]

Countable or uncountable aren't applicable here. We are not talking about the amount of things in awlb's cosmology. But the scale of Alovenus' ap, speed, and durability

Alovenus Ap & ruphas Ap got scalling from their Cosmology. how can you not discuss cosmology when this is a L1a character debate

If any amount of layers can be added in it, that should be 1A by definition, should it not? Is there more context that keeps it from 1A or...?

Its still L1A. If ruphas/alovenus transcending Divine realm. that's 1A feats (But no one can do this).

R>F was debunked

I already give a backup feats if the difference is author-Story

 

[Shuna]

I chose the wrong word there, it seems, so let me just delete the reply to that question and fix it

 

[Shuna]

there shouldn't be an absolute word, I'm too fast on a hopeless sentence

 

[Urshani]

i suggest we make a new thread.

 

[Shuna]

i suggest we make a new thread.

No problem with that for me

 

[Orioreeem]

How can you become a higher tier just by looking at it on your pawn?
We don't see chessboard as fiction.

A pawn isn't able to attack you, same is the case with character on paper. Anyway disagree with the downgrade, if you want more info, you can ask Homestuck supporters about this.

 

[Panpanpanjeidj]

A pawn isn't able to attack you, same is the case with character on paper. Anyway if you want more info, you can ask Homestuck supporters about this.

Ok
But we can't destroy the infinite Pawn. I think there's a different reason.

 

[TokiNoOuja]

I agree with @Celestial_Pegasus ,his explaination was great overall

 

[TokiNoOuja]

Well to be honest i don't too much knowledge about the verse since i was don't read it yet,thanks to the Supporter who explain it a lot,if not maybe i already agree with the Downgrade from the beginning

 

[Hmesko]

you know about the term uncountably infinite? yes it is infinite which is said to be incalculable.

Even so. The continuum is uncountable. 10xcontinuum. 100xcontinuum. 1000kxcontinuum. GoogolplexplusplexplusplexXcontinuum. Rayo'snumberxcontinuum. even 2^(continuum). none are larger than the continuum. You are not creating any larger uncountable set than before.

Alovenus Ap & ruphas Ap got scalling from their Cosmology. how can you not discuss cosmology when this is a L1a character debate

If you want to argue that they would win in a battle because they can destroy a larger cosmology. This is a completely distinct argument from arguing that alovenus can "go beyond infinite" ap, durability, and speed because different sized uncountable sets exist. As far as I've seen nobody has argued the former itt.

 

[Delta333]

In Homestuck higher dimensional beings see lower worlds and its inhabitants as pawns so i don't see much difference here if any. Maybe people who accepted that know their stuff about what qualifies for tier 1?

Seeing pawn alone was never be tier 1,you need to perceive the fictional war behind the chess to gain tier,otherwise Maou Gakuin is tier 1 a long time ago

In this case paper is 3-D object in literal sense,characters didn't see lower dimensional entity as fictional being on those papers at all so there is no reality fiction difference

 

[Tarang123]

Its still L1A. If ruphas/alovenus transcending Divine realm. that's 1A feats (But no one can do this).

I'm pretty confused. If the realm can fit any number of dimensions Aor whatever without its transcendence needing to be modified, then there's that's pretty much textbook definition 1A unless you can explain why it isn't. Cause, again, being able to fit an arbitrary number of dimensions and add/remove them without changing the ontological transcendence it holds, is 1A by definition.

 

[Orioreeem]

Seeing pawn alone was never be tier 1,you need to perceive the fictional war behind the chess to gain tier,otherwise Maou Gakuin is tier 1 a long time ago

In this case paper is 3-D object in literal sense,characters didn't see lower dimensional entity as fictional being on those papers at all so there is no reality fiction difference

Become a resident of a higher dimension and toss away the opponent’s settings like a piece of waste paper?
Since it says settings this implies tier 1.

 

[Delta333]

Become a resident of a higher dimension and toss away the opponent’s settings like a piece of waste paper?
Since it says settings this implies tier 1.

It doesn't,literal paper in this context doesn't represent for fictional stuff or anything,also ppl keep ignore the fact that many lower dimensions can be one higher dimension,which is completely different with reality fiction relation

 

[Tarang123]

Even so. The continuum is uncountable. 10xcontinuum. 100xcontinuum. 1000kxcontinuum. GoogolplexplusplexplusplexXcontinuum. Rayo'snumberxcontinuum. even 2^(continuum). none are larger than the continuum. You are not creating any larger uncountable set than before.

Can you explain this a little better cause a "continuum" being called uncountable doesn't make it uncountably infinite in ontological size.