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Alien X 3-A Downgrade

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Except there wasn't a celestialsapient doing that. Skurd was doing this. A simple DNA alteration doesnt mean a whole Celestialsapien's power was breaking the barrier. It's simply Skurd physically doing it with Celestialsapien DNA. Nothing more.
... alright let's do it again. "This guy with human stats and the ability to copy body (but not abilities) beat this universal guy by becoming that other guy, there's no reason to assume that other guy would be universal!"
Skurd replicates something, that's his whole point. You might as well say that celestial sapiens don't scale to alien X because he's created by the omnitrix
 
... alright let's do it again. "This guy with human stats and the ability to copy body (but not abilities) beat this universal guy by becoming that other guy, there's no reason to assume that other guy would be universal!"
Skurd replicates something, that's his whole point. You might as well say that celestial sapiens don't scale to alien X because he's created by the omnitrix
False equivalence since Alien X isn't simply DNA, a piece of Celestialsapien DNA, or whatever you want to call it. He is a fully fledged and whole Celestialsapien just like any other one in the species, as is any alien the Omnitrix gives Ben.

Skurd on the other hand does not do that, he simply replicates a part of an alien using their DNA. It is still Skurd himself physically doing the feat, he is just altering himself with the replicated alien DNA. It is not the same deal as what the Omnitrix does.
 
Thats not a debunk
His debunks make no sense lmao.
It isn't. See above. Debunk it or drop it.
Wtf are you even saying?
Okay? DNA isn't energy or strength, like, at all. It's no more than a component. Which is why im failing to see why it counts as AP for anyone besides Skurd himself for physically breeching it.
Are you ******* trying to be dense right now? Alien X DNA is powerful enough to breach it is that hard to comprehend? If it were that easy skurd DNA would have been used but it was Alien X body which was used to breach the extra-dimentional barrier.
See above. For Skurd its fine since he's actively doing the breeching. For Alien X it is not.
Which alien DNA was used to breach it?

Plus alien X ******* scales above all Ben's aliens in heirachy?
 
False equivalence since Alien X isn't simply DNA, a piece of Celestialsapien DNA, or whatever you want to call it. He is a fully fledged and whole Celestialsapien just like any other one in the species, as is any alien the Omnitrix gives Ben.

Skurd on the other hand does not do that, he simply replicates a part of an alien using their DNA. It is still Skurd himself physically doing the feat, he is just altering himself with the replicated alien DNA. It is not the same deal as what the Omnitrix does.
and it definitively do not work the way you think it does. If anything it's an argument toward alien X being stronger, not weaker
 
Not to m
His debunks make no sense lmao.
Then debunk them.......
Wtf are you even saying?
Im saying if they don't make sense to you, then they should be easy to debunk yes? So debunk them. "This doesnt make sense" is not a counter argument.
Are you ******* trying to be dense right now? Alien X DNA is powerful enough to breach it is that hard to comprehend?
DNA =/= power or strength, so yes it is. DNA being "powerful enough" is not a thing.
If it were that easy skurd DNA would have been used but it was Alien X body which was used to breach the extra-dimentional barrier.
Or Alien X's DNA was a required component for Skurds physical self to breech the extra-dimensional barrier. Which is more reasonable than this random interpretation of DNA needing to be powerful enough.

Not to pull whaaboutism, but an almost exact example to show this is nonsense is the Tenseigan device from Naruto. Hinata needed to use Hamura's Chakra to destroy the Tenseigan as that chakra type is the only type of chakra that can break it. Doesn't mean Hinata herself scales to the Tenseigan (especially when she needed Naruto's raw chakra to boost her power in order to breech it).
Which alien DNA was used to breach it?
Doesnt matter as said above. DNA is not AP.
Plus alien X ******* scales above all Ben's aliens in heirachy?
Unless you want to argue Skurd being Low 2-C (which he wouldnt anyway since the barrier doesnt and wouldnt have Low 2-C durability as earlier points explained why it wouldnt), this goes nowhere.
 
Not to pull whaaboutism, but an almost exact example to show this is nonsense is the Tenseigan device from Naruto. Hinata needed to use Hamura's Chakra to destroy the Tenseigan as that chakra type is the only type of chakra that can break it. Doesn't mean Hinata herself scales to the Tenseigan (especially when she needed Naruto's raw chakra to boost her power in order to breech it).
very weak example. It was never stated that alien X was an exact counter and he didn't need external support
Doesnt matter as said above. DNA is not AP.
it's not dna, it's copying AP (and appareance through DNA
Unless you want to argue Skurd being Low 2-C (which he wouldnt anyway since the barrier doesnt and wouldnt have Low 2-C durability as earlier points explained why it wouldnt), this goes nowhere.
skurd doesn't have a key but yes, he would get "low 2-C with celestial-sapien DNA" if he did
 
Let me go over these point by point so you can understand what I’m saying. Because apparently you haven’t read through my arguments

Yes. He quite obviously pierced it. I’ll go over why 4D is the wrong term to use.

Yes that’s the intention. Tho there are several contradictory factors: time traveling to a timeless void using time travel, time still affecting Maltruant in a time loop, Ben and the others moving and Maltruant describing Ben as “a second too late”.
I think we can all agree that the Ben 10 writers are ass when it comes to their consistency. They can’t even keep a newly introduced concept consistent for half an episode. Anyway, let’s all pretend we agree that the beginning of time is timeless. Also keep in mind that space exists in the beginning of time if it’s called a dimension, and Ben is shown bypassing spatial boundaries to reach the beginning of time.

Firstly, it doesn’t create space, as shown above, and doesn’t create a dimension of time.
Secondly, you have no evidence it’s creating a timeline. Ben and Rook just left the timeline. So how exactly is the Annihilargh supposed to create the prime timeline if the prime timeline already exists?
Third, all you need for time to exist is the movement of an object. With said object moving, it has past movements and present movements, and future movements. Simply having existing movements from the universe’s matter within a space, can create time. Time is described as “the measured or measurable period during which an action, process, or condition exists or continues” so simple actions are something that time is super dependent on. What the Annihilargh did was create matter within a space. Obviously the movements/actions of said matter are measurable, therefore, time starts existing all throughout the universe. It’s even stated on the Big Bang page, for the thousandth time: “Creating a supposed Big Bang that would create all the space of a universe or its space and time through a physical explosion is a 3-A feat, and grants Explosion Manipulation, limited Spatial Manipulation and limited Time Manipulation.” “If it has generated a space-time expansion that creates an entire universal spacetime continuum from scratch, it is treated as Low 2-C.
Fourth, I’ve explained why the universe itself is 3-A and exists within a timeline. Here the universe is shown to be a cluster of galaxies. Kevin asks where they are and Paradox says it’s the “Space Beyond”. Yet, him and no watch Ben being outside of time and space, despite one timeline still existing, is said to be not a place, so Paradox can’t answer where they are. Another thing, the time stream is said to be like a tree, with the branches being timelines. It’s even shown to be that way. The time stream and the universe look nothing alike, as shown in the UA clip, the picture I linked and this picture as well.

Since I already explained why this is not low 2-C, I’ll move one to why the force of the Big Bang is not universal. Maybe it’d still be universal absorption for Feedback, but that doesn’t mean the Big Bang itself is universal.

The barrier can protect them from nuclear radiations. I don’t know if you missed it but there was a whole ass discussion about “tanking” creation, as shown here. There are other dangerous factors other than big explosions. By “energy” the Contumelia could mean “dense thermal energy, as Agnaa said.
@Antvasima This is what my arguments are. Turns out I didn’t need to write anything else because I’m not gonna rewrite something I’ve said time and time again.

Also what’s being discussed now?
 
Then debunk them.......
When firestorm did why should I again?

Im saying if they don't make sense to you, then they should be easy to debunk yes? So debunk them. "This doesnt make sense" is not a counter argument.
Why should I debunk shit that don't make any sense lmao and firestorm already addressed his statement.

DNA =/= power or strength, so yes it is. DNA being "powerful enough" is not a thing.
I don't seem to understand this.
Besides E.g a planetary character using a another beings body to tear through a universal+ barrier is what?
Or Alien X's DNA was a required component for Skurds physical self to breech the extra-dimensional barrier. Which is more reasonable than this random interpretation of DNA needing to be powerful enough.
I don't seem to understand you tbh or it's almost like I'm chatting with a being who can't use common sense.
Not to pull whaaboutism, but an almost exact example to show this is nonsense is the Tenseigan device from Naruto. Hinata needed to use Hamura's Chakra to destroy the Tenseigan as that chakra type is the only type of chakra that can break it. Doesn't mean Hinata herself scales to the Tenseigan (especially when she needed Naruto's raw chakra to boost her power in order to breech it).
What kind of dumb false equivalence is this? Can you think how are both the same thing?
Doesnt matter as said above. DNA is not AP.
Did I ever say DNA = AP?
Unless you want to argue Skurd being Low 2-C (which he wouldnt anyway since the barrier doesnt and wouldnt have Low 2-C durability as earlier points explained why it wouldnt), this goes nowhere.
Now I see your just ignorant lmao. Or you simply can't think with common sense as a normal human would.
 
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Sorry everyone and sorry mods for what I'm gonna say but I actually can't tell if @ProfessorKukui4Life is doing it on purpose or something but Skurd copy the powers of an alien by copying the alien DNA all he did was copying Alien x DNA in order to copy his powers so he can use a part of a Celestialsapien body which has 3-A/low 2-C physical strength and durability in order to break through the barrier that was protecting the Contumelia from the Big Bang like it doesn't even take a genius to realize that so now he is either baiting us or either he is a dumbass that's all I can
 
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the barrier breaking obviously scales to alien x why is this a discussion
 
Skurd scaling to the barrier but AX not scaling to Skurd cause limbs > full thing. Apparently.
Can people STOP putting words in my mouth? I never said "limbs > full thing" my point is that we don't use DNA as a means to give scaling and have never done so, the DNA from Alien X was simply a required component to break through the barrier when nothing else could.

And even if I'm wrong on how this is treated, the scaling still isn't low 2-c since durability isn't required to "tank" Creation.
 
Can people STOP putting words in my mouth? I never said "limbs > full thing" my point is that we don't use DNA as a means to give scaling and have never done so, the DNA from Alien X was simply a required component to break through the barrier when nothing else could.

And even if I'm wrong on how this is treated, the scaling still isn't low 2-c since durability isn't required to "tank" Creation.
Um skurd isn't using the dna to cut the barrier, he's using the dna to make an alien X arm that has the AP to cut the barrier.
 
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Um skurd isn't using the dna to cut the barrier, he's using the dna to make an alien X arm that has the AP to cut the barrier.
Which again implies Skurd magically has the power to replicate, what some of you consider here, a degree of infinity or more on a whim, which is nonsense unless again, you argue for tier 3/2 Skurd to be a thing.
 
Well isn't skurd attached to the omnitrix which CAN replicate infinite power? Also I don't see how skurd manipulating a dna is a tier 2 feat.
 
Well isn't skurd attached to the omnitrix which CAN replicate infinite power? Also I don't see how skurd manipulating a dna is a tier 2 feat.
If you consider the barrier Low 2-C in durability and Skurd being able to break it with Alien X DNA, that results in Skurd being capable of replicating tier 3/2 power at will. And thats a ticket to outlier city for him.

That said, if he needed the Omnitrix to do this completely, then maybe that would be an exception?
 
If you consider the barrier Low 2-C in durability and Skurd being able to break it with Alien X DNA, that results in Skurd being capable of replicating tier 3/2 power at will. And thats a ticket to outlier city for him.

That said, if he needed the Omnitrix to do this completely, then maybe that would be an exception?
Skurd uses DNA from the omnitrix to fuse multiple transformations, skurd already hass access to the alien X dna from the omnitrix, he just has to fuse it with chromastone, this is powers and abilities, not AP.
 
If you consider the barrier Low 2-C in durability and Skurd being able to break it with Alien X DNA, that results in Skurd being capable of replicating tier 3/2 power at will. And thats a ticket to outlier city for him.

That said, if he needed the Omnitrix to do this completely, then maybe that would be an exception?
The Alien DNA shown being used to breach ìt was Alien X's DNA.
 
This Skurd discussion is silly and I have no idea why it's even being questioned or brought up.

Now, let me give you guys the benefit of the doubt. The annihilargh created a universe in a timeless space (it's surrounded by spatial barriers so yeah, there's space.) and the creation of said universe allowed time to exist. Space was created but time was, so it's matter+time. Think of it as a world line, where an object can exist in the past present and future. So all the matter in the universe+time = uncountable infinite snapshots of the observable universe. (Read more about that under the "time" portion) So low 2-C.

Now, the barrier is stated to protect the Contumelia from upcoming energy. You can’t tank creation and the ship is shown to be unaffected by the big bang but kneels to a regular ship. So ultimately the barrier feat isn’t quantifiable.

As for the destruction, it's clear that time wasn’t affected at all, especially since we know that a timeless space is white, while the space was black when the universe was destroyed. As well as the evidence that the past wasn’t changed. Especially with the circumstances where the universe is evidently 3-A.

So from what's shown, the Annihilargh seems to have 3-A destruction and low 2-C creation.
 
Then does that imply 3-A/ Low 2-C Chromastone?
How did you get that from that?????? Look it's like if I took a regular human (i'm actually wall level but so you don't feel bad) took a knife now my ap is no longer 10-B and is now 9-C, the same idea is that chromastone got a alien X sword which has low 2-C AP and used that to break the barrier while he's only large building.
 
Agnaa already explained this. Unless the energy is used as a destructive action, you can’t. The energy isn’t what’s harming u, the dense thermal energy is.
The annilihargh is a weapon/tech that can cause an explosion which would lead to creation.
 
The events in the show:
  1. Ben and Rook travel to before their universe and timeline were created.
  2. This place is a timeless void, established by being before the timeline was created, other statements, and the inability to use time manipulation.
  3. Maltruant is attempting to use his own Annihilargh to create a universe and its time in his image.
  4. The Contumelia created an extra-dimensional field to protect them from the device's release of energy. They consider it impossible to breach the field.
  5. Alien X DNA is able to breach the extra-dimensional field.
Abridged Low 2-C Argument:
  • The Annihilargh's energy release is Low 2-C as per our Tiering System of explicitly creating a universe and its time.
  • The Annihilargh cannot be 3-A because as per our Tiering System, 3-A specifically says that it "does not involve the destruction and/or creation of space-time."
  • The Annihilargh cannot be High 3-A because, as per our Tiering System, High 3-A does not account for any higher dimensions or time.
  • The Contulemia are familiar with and deal with the universe and time creating energies numerous times. With this prior knowledge, they created the Extra-Dimensional field to protect themselves from such energies.
    • They would not create an Extra-Dimensional field below Low 2-C durability and say that it was impossible to breach if they deal with Low 2-C energies all the time and if Low 2-C energy can breach the field. Therefore, anything that is at least Low 2-C or above would be able to breach the Extra-Dimensional Field.
  • Because Alien X DNA was able to breach the "impossible to breach" Extra-Dimensional field created by beings who deal with Low 2-C energy all the time, Alien X should be At least Low 2-C.
@SomebodyData @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Ogbunabali
@DarkDragonMedeus
@AKM sama

Would some of you be willing to read the post quoted above and the one linked below, and then try to evaluate them and tell us what you think please?

 
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@SomebodyData @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Ogbunabali

Would some of you be willing to read the post quoted above and the one linked below, and then try to evaluate them and tell us what you think please?

I agree with Zamasu Chan's evaluation based on those two posts. Mostly because of this clip showing the universes existing as sort of hubble volumes.

Though I should say, I'm not familiar with the verse nor have I read the thread, just basing this off of these two posts.
 
I agree with Zamasu Chan's evaluation based on those two posts. Mostly because of this clip showing the universes existing as sort of hubble volumes.

Though I should say, I'm not familiar with the verse nor have I read the thread, just basing this off of these two posts.
Sorry, but can you elaborate on which points you are referring to and why that scene is related to the creation of the universe and the timestream?

Also, the Big Bang page has been updated to match our current Tiering System. A Big Bang creating the universe and explicitly its time is Low 2-C.
 
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I agree with Zamasu Chan's evaluation based on those two posts. Mostly because of this clip showing the universes existing as sort of hubble volumes.

Though I should say, I'm not familiar with the verse nor have I read the thread, just basing this off of these two posts.
I don't get what you're trying to say, so what if the universe is represented like that when they are in the forge of creation (which is outside of time and space)?
 
Also, the Big Bang page has been updated to match our current Tiering System. A Big Bang creating the universe and explicitly its time is Low 2-C.
Where was that discussed? Because iirc the Big Bang page is the newer one, having a CRT to make it as it is 5 months ago. If anything, the Tiering System page should've been changed in accordance with the Big Bang page revision. And fwiw, I disagree with some of the wording changes.
 
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I reverted the changes to the Big Bang page, since it seems like I misunderstood the situation. I thought that it was a leftover change from our old tiering system revision.
 
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